Wing Chun Technique

[tenzen]

The whole body moves as one in every art. Whether it be boxing judo wing chun wrestling whatever. It does not have to be a forward advancement it might be a simple twist but the body works together.
Also you are misunderstanding what I'm saying about linkage. Having a base to pull your power from the ground up to exert it in any fashion is called kinetic linking. With you bouncing your not going to have that correct link to generate any power. Your also severely off balance when bouncing the way you do, therefore easily knocked on your *** and getting your head stomped into the dirt. Whether that be timing or luck of the draw doesn't matter a mediocre streetfighter will take you out.

Also if your having trouble with mobility you need to get back to the basics, wc is not a rigid system. Unless you make it one of course. Its a system of concepts and ideas that can apply to a wide range of tactics. You make it your own by your attitude and personality. Body structure plays a factor also but you don't have to change what's there, its already scientifically designed to work with the way humans move.

Another thing about being deflected with your straight shot, not likely if you know how to use it. You don't have to force things to have power. Wc teaches relaxed power which will get you much further than brute force. Since you like boxers I will talk about boxing here for a second. Boxers also hit with a type of relaxed force this allows them to be able to box for 12 rounds and still generate power, that and the kinetic linking/ power pulled from the ground. If they went out and used purely muscular force they wouldn't fight much more than 3 rounds, even with top conditioning. I would also like to add that up until a few years ago manny pacquiao only threw straight punches, no hooks at all. So straight punches land. Also there is a lot more in your arsenal than just punching, not gonna go into too much detail but kicking for instance is very difficult while bouncing like that unless your into olympic tae kwon do. So your kicks will become next to useless while bouncing like that.

All in all I think you are misunderstanding what you are being taught a great deal. Your missing a lot. And I do know plenty about fighting for real not just playing in the gym. I was a military combatives instructor, a kickboxer, a bouncer , and have done some personal security/bodyguard work. I have been in plenty of fights and I know what does and doesn't work. I'm also persuing a degree in bio mechanics. I like to know how the body works and how to keep it from working.

Like I said earlier it may work for you in the settings that you are training in. But that's just training. I see it being a set back in real street application. Everything I train for is stuff that will actually work, I have no need for extra ******** that is just wasting my time. If you do actually use this bouncing method and it works for you, myself and the others would love to see the real application of it. So if there is anyway you could get a sparring session going with someone from your academy and have it recorded please show us. We might have learned something new.

 

[tenzen]

Double post sorry

 

[mvbrown21]

Honestly guys, wasn't trying to start a competition here. Just sharing and hoping to see others footwork as well. Wasn't trying to direct this thread into the direction it's going. I love Wing Chun very much, I just don't drink the red Kool-aid and am open enough to see it's shortcomings. I don't know where this bio-mechanics thing started and have yet to read or see anything about it with regards to WC outside of the occasional comment by a practitioner. I think that defense is way overused and mis-appropriately attached to WC. You can argue bio-mechanics on almost any movement of the human body that is rooted in balance. And whether you want to acknowledge it or not, a bob or a weave, if done with balance can be just as rooted as not doing it

If any of you have footwork examples of your lineages, I would love to see them

Thanks

 

[mook jong man]

You can be rooted to the ground that is for sure , but once you start bobbing and weaving , your spine is now out of alignment and your central axis is out of kilter.

That means that your body weight is not going to be supported directly through the centre of your body and your weight will not be even over both feet .

If you weave your head to one side , naturally your body weight will follow and be increased on that side , that means that if you have to use that leg to jam , kick or step then you have to re-adjust your weight again in order to move , this takes longer than if you just had your body weight centrally located in the first place.

Wing Chun is predicated on being non committal , that means in terms of movement and how our body weight is supported by the skeletal structure.

Many things like pivoting and non committal movement will cease to function properly when this central axis is disturbed.

I do not do the video thing , people who want to see my Wing Chun have to be taught by me and pay for the privilege.

There is not much to see anyway , there is no fancy footwork , just get into your SLT stance and walk forward one leg after the other , to go back reverse the movement .
Any attacking movement is synchronised with a step , pivot when you have to
If you are so inclined to go searching my master was the late sifu Jim Fung and his master was Tsui Seung Tin there might be some clips that show a bit of footwork I am not sure.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

First, as said before, nice house! Also, what is the song on the video?

My stepping and stance methods have changed "drastically" compared to many Wing Chun methods, yet they are hard to see if not pointed out. Also, we test them against pressure in the direction opposite of where we intend to have most stability to make sure they are effective.

One thing we don't do is drag our feet on the floor. Lift the foot and step, not dragging it. It diminishes the strength of the postures.

Another thing is that I pivot on the ball of the foot. Also I plant on the heel. This is to send the correct proprioceptive signals to my body for the desired effect (stability/mobility/structure, etc.). This is important for optimal movements, yet it depends on application.

More later if asked. Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado

 

[mvbrown21]

Greetings.

First, as said before, nice house! Also, what is the song on the video?

My stepping and stance methods have changed "drastically" compared to many Wing Chun methods, yet they are hard to see if not pointed out. Also, we test them against pressure in the direction opposite of where we intend to have most stability to make sure they are effective.

One thing we don't do is drag our feet on the floor. Lift the foot and step, not dragging it. It diminishes the strength of the postures.

Another thing is that I pivot on the ball of the foot. Also I plant on the heel. This is to send the correct proprioceptive signals to my body for the desired effect (stability/mobility/structure, etc.). This is important for optimal movements, yet it depends on application.

More later if asked. Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado

Thanks Juan and everyone else who commented on the house. I'll have to let my wife know because she's the true designer there. Walk into the man-cave and it's a whole nother world. A Bruce Lee picture, a random picture of a Hong Kong street, a pin-up girl sliding down a fire pole(used to be a firefighter), and a whole lot of clutter!!

Thanks for sharing how you do your footwork, it's very interesting, first time I've heard of a lineage pivoting on the ball of the foot. Do you have any video/photos of either yourself or somewhere you could direct me to? Also, what is your lineage?

Thanks

 

[mvbrown21]

Oh yeah, the song is by Angels and Airwaves and called "The Adventure"

 

[mook jong man]

Greetings.

First, as said before, nice house! Also, what is the song on the video?

My stepping and stance methods have changed "drastically" compared to many Wing Chun methods, yet they are hard to see if not pointed out. Also, we test them against pressure in the direction opposite of where we intend to have most stability to make sure they are effective.

One thing we don't do is drag our feet on the floor. Lift the foot and step, not dragging it. It diminishes the strength of the postures.

Another thing is that I pivot on the ball of the foot. Also I plant on the heel. This is to send the correct proprioceptive signals to my body for the desired effect (stability/mobility/structure, etc.). This is important for optimal movements, yet it depends on application.

More later if asked. Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado

Dragging the feet on the floor slows down the speed of your stepping due to friction with the ground , not a good thing when you are trying to accelerate your body mass forward as fast you can in order to generate power in striking .

 

[tenzen]

Dragging the feet also causes knee problems.

Mvbrown, maybe you would fair better learning boxing because everything your saying is contradictory to the art your practicing. Like your making wing chun something its not.

My wing chun comes from 2 lines. Willliam cheungs traditional wing chun, and the wong sheung leung system. The footwork from twc can easily be viewed online. For the wsl footwork search videos of gary lam or david peterson.

 

[wtxs]

Dragging the feet on the floor slows down the speed of your stepping due to friction with the ground , not a good thing when you are trying to accelerate your body mass forward as fast you can in order to generate power in striking .

Just curious, would you say Emin made it work pretty well?

 

[Haris Lamboo Faisal]

Alright i haven't been practicing wing chun for that long and i haven't been in that many fights in the streets except for an odd fight maybe , but i have done some boxing training with an exceptional boxer. And i would like to make two points regarding the bobbing motion based on past experiences.

1. To put it simply my old practice partner has done alot of boxing and was actually a pretty well known amateur here in isb until one day he just stopped because he realised that there was no pro circuit he could show off his skills in , to be honest it was a complete waste of talent and so pursued his education instead... back when i was younger maybe 4 years back thats when i first met him and we trained pretty hard in the ring and gym in those days...he use to enjoy it and always knew so much about it, i had some spare time after school ... anyway during practice we would do a drill in which one person would throw 70% power hooks at the dangerous high spots e.g forehead , neck , jaw etc and the other person would weave and bob and duck to dodge , the aim of the drill being to dodge and develop co=ordination in the body ...ALMOST ALWAYS to regain composure of the body and straighten out our postures to get back in the boxer's chin guard position it would take us maybe a second or 1.5 (that use to be the timing in those days where two knockout blows could be delivered) in this drill we would mostly be going backwards while bobbing from side to side or going under in order to avoid the blows but during the entire drill that we use to exhaustively do we never had enough composure to control exactly which direction we were going backwards in and the velocity control took some leg strength as well. So i would have to agree that the Wc body structure does get compromised whenever you do a bobbing or ducking motion.

2. This Refers to the many spars i had with my partner in the ring where we would go five , four and a half minute rounds with a minute's interval in between each using head guards and chest guards this was mostly for his preparation for his matches to make sure he had adeqaute stamina ...And i would like to point out a certain aspect of the matches i so clearly remember , After ducking and strafing out of the opponent's attacks the boxer is either finds himself in a hunched position at the chest where the spine is bent with the boxer looking up at the opponent or the spine is straight and the knees are slightly bent. In the both scenarios hip rotation and leg boosts would be the thing generating the power we needed for the punch to be devastating and that is my point here ... When you bob and strafe and weave in any direction your whole body isnt behind an attack and thus a wc punch turns into a boxer's jab , essentially in theory and in practice the whole body isnt behind the attack that much i can account for based off personal experience.

Though i can't exactly tell how much your body structure is compromised because of the bobbing i would say that if it works for you then more power to you but in such cases i almost always try to do comparisons. Doing it without bobbing and doing it upright. Get what im saying ... anyway Nice house... Enjoy training. =)

 

[tenzen]

The thing about boxing is its boxing. Its a sport in which you fight other boxers. Wing chun is a fighting art for the street. There's a huge difference there. All that bobbing and weaving in a real fight against someone who has half a clue will get you a knee to the face. Real fights are not in a controlled environment like boxing. Real fighting is chaos. Wing chun gives you the ability too intelligently come out alive, its also made to take your opponent out immediately. Wing chun needs no modification, the principals that are there work.

You can make the arguement that well bruce lee changed wing chun. Well maybe he did, but I would like to point out that it iis well known he wasn't all that great at wing chun and did not learn the whole system either. He was intermediate at best. We in the west hold him in such high regards because he was the first to show us kung fu openly. There are a lot of people who were the first of something that we see as being the best at what they did only because they were the first to show us. Not getting off of the topic of martial arts royce gracie was another one. Now don't get me wrong here I got my black belt in bjj from royce, but he was not the best at bjj. Not even close. But today that's how we see him because he pioneered mma. And in that respect he is and always will be one of the greatest.

 

[Eric_H]

The thing about boxing is its boxing. Its a sport in which you fight other boxers. Wing chun is a fighting art for the street. There's a huge difference there.

Boxing throughout the ages has prove its value in combat to the point where it was well respected in China and added to the Jing Wu curriculum. You telling me those guys didn't know about combat?

All that bobbing and weaving in a real fight against someone who has half a clue will get you a knee to the face. Real fights are not in a controlled environment like boxing. Real fighting is chaos. Wing chun gives you the ability too intelligently come out alive, its also made to take your opponent out immediately. Wing chun needs no modification, the principals that are there work.
Y

I've yet to see bobbing and weaving lead to a knee to the face, even when i did MT. Can you post a clip of it?

 

[mook jong man]

Just curious, would you say Emin made it work pretty well?

After watching it a few times I'm not that convinced that he is dragging his foot on the floor, he is certainly not sliding his front foot on the floor , and his back foot seems to be only partially in contact with the floor judging by the way his heel plants into the floor when he reaches the target , but that could be due to the surface they are on.

But the fact is even if he did drag his back foot hard along the floor , with the amount of time that the man has been training he has already found his centre of gravity and moves as one unit , a very big unit at that , he could probably have bricks tied to his legs and still move in quickly.

I would advocate that he would be even quicker still if he glided across the floor , but it does depend a little bit on the type of surface you are on as well , polished wooden floor boards will not have that much of an effect of friction , whereas concrete or bitumen will slow you down somewhat if you are dragging your feet around.

I would suggest that all Wing Chun people get outside from the nicely carpeted , or polished floor boarded kwoons and get outside and train on a variety of surfaces , such as grass , gravel , dirt , concrete , uneven ground , staircases , bitumen etc.

 

[mook jong man]

If you want some perspective of what the old guys in Hong Kong thought about Bruce Lee , well apparently they said "He could have been really good if he kept on training".
From what I understand he didn't even reach the level of learning Chum Kiu so his knowledge was limited , and if I go back to the time before I started Chum Kiu well lets just say I know a hell of a lot more now than I did then.

But looking in as an outsider from Australian Wing Chun I get the impression that either his theories , or the tactics inherent in his JKD do seem to have infiltrated their way into a lot of American Wing Chun.
Whether this is a good or bad thing I do not know , but I do know it is not Wing Chun , we can argue about whether to use a Tan Sau or a Bong Sau to stop a straight punch , but what we can't argue about is basic things like correct posture .

Wing chun is not JKD , it is not Muay Thai , it is not Boxing , Wing Chun is Wing Chun.
I do not see the point of bobbing and weaving when punches are coming in at 6,7,8 punches a second , my own late Sifu could blaze away at 10 punches a second.

At that rate you won't even be able to see what hit you let alone try to take any evasive action , couple that with the fact that as they are punching your head in with one hand they have a latched onto your other arm so they have immobilised you and know exactly where you are , so there won't be any punches missing I can give you the tip.

One of the great features of Wing Chun is it's "Interruptability" any attacking or defencive motion can be interrupted at any time and converted into something else.

As an example with the bobbing and weaving , if I go to punch you in the head with my right arm and assuming that I telegraph like morse code and you move to the outside and I hit air then I just change that punch to a Fak Sau and hit you in the neck , this only takes half a nano second , similarly if you move to the inside I just pivot and convert the punch to a Tan sau / palm strike to the side of the neck.

The bobbing and weaving thing will work on low level fighters , even people with no training whatsoever knock each other out in front of pubs and night clubs every night of the week.
But when you are facing somebody with real skill and speed to match , someone who only moves just enough to get the job done and no more , then you better make damn sure you have your i's dotted and your t's crossed.

 

[tenzen]

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=aGPZR0n5SDU

Girl dodges a punch and is knocked out with a knee.
It can happen and it does happen. Muay thai is an art that they stay more upright because of this reason. Dropping your head makes an easy target for a knee shot. Seriously have you guys ever really been in a fight. Do a search on youtube for knee knockouts and you will find more of them. To say it doesn't or can't happen when bobbing and weaving is foolish.

As for the jing wu adding boxing to their system, ok. And boxing does have its place, in the ring wearing gloves. The entire art of boxing changed with the queensbury rules. Old style boxing would fare much better in a street confrontation. Now I'm not saying that boxing doesn't work, but its very limited. Also the way punches are thrown with and without gloves differs a lot.

This whole thing is about him breaking posture and losing his linkage with the bounce. Taking away a solid structure and power generation. Also adding in bobbing and weaving, what your lefft with is not wing chun at all. Its merely a boxing hybrid.

 

[mvbrown21]

To: Mook Jong Man

Honestly dude, anyone who's actually been in a real fight can tell from that last post that you've never fought a low-level guy or a skilled one........

And as far as the footwork goes, I've tried to be civil, I've tried to avoid the arrogance and lead this thread into a positive direction. But you wanted to continue so I'll say this and then I'm ending my dialogue with you. Ok, here it goes -

No $h!t you adjust your footwork depending on terrain!!! I swear, I honestly don't know why anymore I even started going onto WC forums.......the outsiders are right, a lot of arrogance exists within the WC crowd and it's rather unfortunate too because, fellas, in case you didn't notice, we're the laughing stock of MA to the rest of the world with the absurd detachment from reality that too many exhibit day in.....and day out...

 

[mvbrown21]

To: Tenzen

I barely even bounced, you are truly ridiculous!!!

 

[bully]

Whoa there Mr Brown, I think you are over reacting. Honestly!!

All I can see in this thread is a difference of opinion which you looked for when you posted it.

The guys seem to have been pretty civil, they don't think your bobbing is good to do. You do. They have said why, you have said why, neither party agrees.
Toys do not need to go out of the pram feller, honestly this is the best WC forum going and why would you leave because of someones opinion on the internet?

Maybe leave this thread if it upsets you that much but posting a vid here is going to attract critism. See how it would fare on the OTHER WC forum. A lot worse than here.

I bet you $50 you would get on with MJM et al in real life if you met them. The written word is hard to convey with emotion and intent. I just think you are making a mountain out of a molehill and reckon you should post some more.

If you are not careful I will post a video of myself doing a "4th empty hand form"

"Heretic" I hear you cry," Burn him","4th form? He lies" :ultracool

 

[Jake104]

First off, I'm not sure what street you guys are supposedly fighting on? Backstreet, maybe Sesame street?? Where I come from fights don't go down like that. Someone gets in your face. Boom you just got sucker punched. Maybe not even the guy in front of you. Maybe his buddy from the side or to the back of your head . The last thing on your mind won't be " gee I think his stance wAs a bit bouncy". No it will be more like " ***** that hurts where's the nearest urgent care. There are lot of different things that can happened on the street. A fair fight probably being the most unlikey. The last fair one on one fight I was in was in 6th grade. The last fight I was in was 4 on 1.

Jake