Wing Chun Sparring

[Kung Fu Wang]

So basically what your saying that the Wing Chun you learn doesn't have grappling or chin na or throws?
Your wing chun does not utilize knees and elbows?

Wing Chun is a complete STAND UP Fighting system.

You must belong to the "My MA system is complete" group. I belong to the "No MA system is complete" group. IMO, if a true complete system ever exists on this planet, the term MMA will never be created.

Have we had so many this kind of discussion in this forum before?

A: I have never learned any throwing skill from my WC teacher.
B: My WC teacher taught me how to punch, kick, lock, and throw. You just need to find a better WC teacher.
A:

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeap.
We are a multisystem facility with not only WC but boxing, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, Submission Wrestling, BJJ, & we have amateur and pro fighters.
Our wc participants have a host of sparring partners.

Danny, every time you list the arts represented there, it renews my desire to visit. That sounds like a profoundly interesting and fun place to train.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You must belong to the "My MA system is complete" group. I belong to the "No MA system is complete" group. IMO, if a true complete system ever exists on this planet, the term MMA will never be created.

Have we had so many this kind of discussion in this forum before?

A: I have never learned any throwing skill from my WC teacher.
B: My WC teacher taught me how to punch, kick, lock, and throw. You just need to find a better WC teacher.
A:

It really depends how you define both "complete" and "system". I'd argue many MMA gyms teach a complete system. And there are plenty of instructors out there who (like most MMA folks) have some competency on the ground, in standing grappling, and with striking. If they teach their system, it's complete.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It really depends how you define both "complete" and "system". I'd argue many MMA gyms teach a complete system. And there are plenty of instructors out there who (like most MMA folks) have some competency on the ground, in standing grappling, and with striking. If they teach their system, it's complete.

Again, you are talking about a cross trained MA instructor.

All students who graduated from the Central Guoshu Institute (1928 - 1933) had to train

- long fist,
- Baji,
- Taiji,
- XingYi,
- Bagus,
- Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling),
- boxing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again, you are talking about a cross trained MA instructor.

All students who graduated from the Central Guoshu Institute (1928 - 1933) had to train

- long fist,
- Baji,
- Taiji,
- XingYi,
- Bagus,
- Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling),
- boxing.

Okay, so that was back in the 20's and 30's. Are you saying the students of those folks can't have created arts that combined the disciplines? At what point does it stop being "cross training" and actually become a system?

 

[Flying Crane]

“Complete” is a meaningless term.

 

[Danny T]

Danny, every time you list the arts represented there, it renews my desire to visit. That sounds like a profoundly interesting and fun place to train.

Thank you. We have a lot of fun and you are welcome any time.

 

[Danny T]

Again, you are talking about a cross trained MA instructor.

All students who graduated from the Central Guoshu Institute (1928 - 1933) had to train

- long fist,
- Baji,
- Taiji,
- XingYi,
- Bagus,
- Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling),
- boxing.

What is the difference in 'cross training' and 'training'?
I go to the school and do some strength training in connection with our class. The next day I go to gym and do the same strength type training...is that cross training?
I have a muay thai instructor come in to do some training with our wing chun class. He covers some MT tactics and we work our wc against that...is that cross training? A high level wc practitioner goes to that same MT instructor to get more in-depth understanding of MT tactics to strengthen his wc vs a MT practitioner is that cross training?
Or, is it just training?
I think 'cross training' is a non thing. Is training to understand a possible opponent's tactics and strategies is simply good smart training.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Now thats awesome.

Yeap.
We are a multisystem facility with not only WC but boxing, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, Submission Wrestling, BJJ, & we have amateur and pro fighters.
Our wc participants have a host of sparring partners.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have a muay thai instructor come in to do some training with our wing chun class.

What you are talking about is cross training.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

What you are talking about is cross training.

I think cross sparring is better than cross training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What you are talking about is cross training.

My question still stands: when does it cease to be cross-training, and become a system? I definitely cross-trained. My students will get my system without needing to cross-train. Same can be true of someone in MMA who goes on to teach what they know as their own MMA system. Their students won't need to study multiple systems to get all those components, because the instructor created a single system that has them all.

 

[Danny T]

What you are talking about is cross training.

Nah...it just a greater depth of good training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My question still stands: when does it cease to be cross-training, and become a system?

It depends on when did the cross training.

If your teacher is a

- 100% pure style person - you have to do cross training yourself. It's you who starts the new system.
- cross trained person - your teacher had done cross training for you. It's your teacher who starts the new system.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

It depends on when did the cross training.

If your teacher is a

- 100% pure style person - you have to do cross training yourself. It's you who starts the new system.
- cross trained person - your teacher had done cross training for you. It's your teacher who starts the new system.

But if you don't spar people of different disciplines then your cross training is more theoretical conditioning with out an actual expression.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I have trained Judo, Kick Boxing and Akidio when i was a kid. My Sifu already knew throws, Joink locks, and other things when he taught us the Wing Chun. Many things in the forms and training teach throws. But i will say My sifu was big proponent of cross training. But this whole idea of cross training is nonsense. Because WC is a SYSTEM of fighting. It is a complete Stand Up fighting system. Notice i didnt say ground fighting. If you wrestle or do BJJ you will gain great ground skills. On the ground its a different game and the structure different. But Chinese Shujiao and Chin Na should be apart of WC if its not. I suggest training with people who know it and spar with them to learn how to use it and how to counter it.

Sparring is the real cross training.

You must belong to the "My MA system is complete" group. I belong to the "No MA system is complete" group. IMO, if a true complete system ever exists on this planet, the term MMA will never be created.

Have we had so many this kind of discussion in this forum before?

A: I have never learned any throwing skill from my WC teacher.
B: My WC teacher taught me how to punch, kick, lock, and throw. You just need to find a better WC teacher.
A:

 

[Martial D]

Ok so he doesn't really do wing chun is what your saying? got it!

He doesn't, but I do. Been doing WC since the late 90s, my sifu learned from Sam Kwok. So, I've had a couple of decades added to a few years to consider this.

He's right.

Fundamentals are fundamentals. Distance, timing, execution. As a WC guy you will get outstruck by a boxer or kickboxer, outgrappled by a wrestler or jui jitsu man. Your footwork/mobility will be a few beats behind the guys that train with contact.

Sometimes you will see a WC guy with decent fundamentals, because I don't think the system itself is necessarily the problem.

I mean, if boxers and kickboxers only did slow motion synchronized solo techniques with the class and BJJ guys only talked theory and rolled without resistance, they wouldn't be very good either.

Training>system.

 

[Topdots]

Most Chinese Martial artist never fight or spar with people and when they finally do fight this is how they look!

Those people are amateurs. Watch this from the British Colony of China instead. The Britons hold a lot of fighting tournaments in Hong Kong pitting style vs style all the time. This video clip is hard to find. Because you have to scroll down a lot to the last page. Wing Chun vs Muay Thai in the British Chinese colony of Hong Kong.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What are your thoughts on the Wing chun sparring clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3xTxyb58j4

I used to watch his old videos and what you are looking at now is an evolution of his perception of fighting. The way he did his low kicks then is not how he does the same low kick. It's really difficult to walk through a low kick when it's done correctly

I can't tell if he abandoned alot of his wing chun. I just know that it doesn't look like he's doing much of it. But I don't train wing chun so I'm not the best one to point that out. I've seen Wing Chun applied correctly and it doesn't look like that.

To be honest maybe it wasn't his intent when making the video. Maybe he's trying to attract MMA fighters. If that's the case the it's going to be pieces of Wing Chun mixed with some other stuff.

 

[geezer]

Those people are amateurs. Watch this from the British Colony of China instead. The Britons hold a lot of fighting tournaments in Hong Kong pitting style vs style all the time. This video clip is hard to find. Because you have to scroll down a lot to the last page. Wing Chun vs Muay Thai in the British Chinese colony of Hong Kong.

I'm confused. You are writing in the present tense, i.e. as though this is happening right now. There hasn't been a British colony of Hong Kong since the British returned control of Hong Kong back to the Beijing government of China in 1997.

Also, there haven't been any "Britons" around since the Middle Ages, unless you mean their descendants, the Welsh. Really, even I know this and I'm a damned Yank. Where's Tez when you need her!