Wing Chun powerless against aggressive boxers?

[anerlich]

show me where the sprawl in snt is and I will quit training grappling

I think the "argument" here is that the basic YGKYM stance itself represents a sprawl. The hips drive forward. Pull a YGKYM in a horizontal plane on top of someone shooting for a double leg (the sum total of what most non grapplers seem to think you have to defend against) and you are in effect sprawling.

To extrapolate that out to saying that practising SLT/SNT all day will equip you to avoid any and all takedowns is obviously ludicrous.

Back in about 1995, before my instructor parted ways with him, William Cheung demonstrated a defence against a takedown that was more or less a sprawl. He wrapped both arms around the guy's waist (which is much less effective than, say, a wrestling front headlock, and, one might say, is a typical rookie mistake) and kicked his legs back, not nearly far enough.

Would this work against guys in your WC club who don't know zip about effective takedowns trying to tackle you? Probably. Would it work against any decent high school level wrestler? Highly unlikely.

I wouldn't quit training grappling just yet.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You naturally bully people in boxing you will get your face punched in.

Watch the movie creed. It will give you an indication of why your average boxer is better than your average chunster.

Actually this is even simpler to explain.

If you are bad at wing chun long enough this happens.

If you are bad enough at boxing long enough this happens.

That was really bad Wing Chun. That what people do when trying to figure out technique applications. The real failure is that they don't test their assumptions by increasing the speed of the attack. To be honest, I don't think many people like that actually care about it working so long as they look important and cash a check.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Actually Wong gives an example of how 'He' uses his wing chun to defend verses an aggressive boxer. He also says it is dangerous but a wing chun man can defend against the boxer. He states at the end the 'if' the wing man is not up to a good standard the boxer will be a problem and that one must train and train properly to understand the boxer attacks.

Again one must practice, learn and understand range, timing, and angles.

I guess this is why CMAs tried to keep things secret. It's easier to fight against a system when you understand what attacks are being used against you when compared to attacks that are totally new and unknown.

 

[Juany118]

I think the "argument" here is that the basic YGKYM stance itself represents a sprawl. The hips drive forward. Pull a YGKYM in a horizontal plane on top of someone shooting for a double leg (the sum total of what most non grapplers seem to think you have to defend against) and you are in effect sprawling.

To extrapolate that out to saying that practising SLT/SNT all day will equip you to avoid any and all takedowns is obviously ludicrous.

Back in about 1995, before my instructor parted ways with him, William Cheung demonstrated a defence against a takedown that was more or less a sprawl. He wrapped both arms around the guy's waist (which is much less effective than, say, a wrestling front headlock, and, one might say, is a typical rookie mistake) and kicked his legs back, not nearly far enough.

Would this work against guys in your WC club who don't know zip about effective takedowns trying to tackle you? Probably. Would it work against any decent high school level wrestler? Highly unlikely.

I wouldn't quit training grappling just yet.

I agree. I think the issue is how far are you willing to take the concept "WC is a conceptual martial art" take it as far as Izzo does, it works. Ultimately WC can be boiled down to the centerline and forwarding energy. So in the video I saw of him he was, weirdly, wrestling and Wing Chuning at the same time. I really still don't know what to think of it. He had a wrestling stance but was clearly maintaining WC centerline and even using WC hand and arm techniques.

That said, I hope, the Grand Master of my Sifu was showing a practical self defense technique with what he did because, as you said, a formally trained grappler would be able to avoid that, I have seen it as well and it made me cringe. Luckily you aren't likely to be mugged by a purple belt in BJJ.

 

[Danny T]

I guess this is why CMAs tried to keep things secret. It's easier to fight against a system when you understand what attacks are being used against you when compared to attacks that are totally new and unknown.

Yeah...and is why pro fighters study their opponents.

 

[anerlich]

That said, I hope, the Grand Master of my Sifu was showing a practical self defense technique with what he did because, as you said, a formally trained grappler would be able to avoid that, I have seen it as well and it made me cringe.

Well. William Cheung is my Sigung as well. I have an instructor's certificate from him I got in 1995. I'd have more respect for him if he just said "I don't really know much about grappling and if you are worried about it, go train with grapplers," rather than teaching a defence I recognise now was a basic, poorly executed, and easily countered version of a wrestling technique, with the implication that learning to grapple is a waste of time.

No martial art, even if you are a grandmaster thereof, can possibly have an immediate answer to every combat problem and system, including those that came after it and those yet to be invented.

 

[anerlich]

I guess this is why CMAs tried to keep things secret. It's easier to fight against a system when you understand what attacks are being used against you when compared to attacks that are totally new and unknown.

The problem with secrets is that until they are exposed to a variety of opponents you can't tell for sure whether they will be effective or not.

 

[Juany118]

Well. William Cheung is my Sigung as well. I have an instructor's certificate from him I got in 1995. I'd have more respect for him if he just said "I don't really know much about grappling and if you are worried about it, go train with grapplers," rather than teaching a defence I recognise now was a basic, poorly executed, and easily countered version of a wrestling technique, with the implication that learning to grapple is a waste of time.

No martial art, even if you are a grandmaster thereof, can possibly have an immediate answer to every combat problem and system, including those that came after it and those yet to be invented.

Tbh I wonder if my Sifu set up his school with this is mind. He got permission from Sigung Cheung to teach WC and Kali in tandem (though WC testing must be in front of Sifu Mazza, my Sifu is a Mataw-Guro in Kali so we test Kali with him). Maybe it was to fill in the gaps so to speak? He was a LE Operator serving drug warrants and raiding Motor Cycle gang bars etc. before he became an instructor in martial arts. So this makes sense to me as he will think practical application.

 

[anerlich]

I don't know but I would imagine so.

My instructor has a black belt in Kyokushin Karate and a brown belt in BJJ. He's also spent considerable time learning wrestling, and knife and firearm combatives.

My first MA teacher was an eclectic kung fu stylist. As far as stylistic purity goes, I was ruined from the start.

My current obsession is Jiu Jitsu, but no one sensible claims it or any art to be 100% complete. Good arts continue to evolve anyway, and as such the notion of "completeness" doesn't fit.

Can an incomplete art still be effective self defence? Definitely.

 

[drop bear]

I agree. I think the issue is how far are you willing to take the concept "WC is a conceptual martial art" take it as far as Izzo does, it works. Ultimately WC can be boiled down to the centerline and forwarding energy. So in the video I saw of him he was, weirdly, wrestling and Wing Chuning at the same time. I really still don't know what to think of it. He had a wrestling stance but was clearly maintaining WC centerline and even using WC hand and arm techniques.

That said, I hope, the Grand Master of my Sifu was showing a practical self defense technique with what he did because, as you said, a formally trained grappler would be able to avoid that, I have seen it as well and it made me cringe. Luckily you aren't likely to be mugged by a purple belt in BJJ.

The thing is the double leg is about the first move you will learn. And the first move you learn to defend. And it is a move used and defended by top grapplers.

So there isnt a purple belt version or even a metamoris version. It is the same basic move done better.

So learning that basic move carries though your entire martial arts progression.

 

[Juany118]

I don't know but I would imagine so.

My instructor has a black belt in Kyokushin Karate and a brown belt in BJJ. He's also spent considerable time learning wrestling, and knife and firearm combatives.

My first MA teacher was an eclectic kung fu stylist. As far as stylistic purity goes, I was ruined from the start.

My current obsession is Jiu Jitsu, but no one sensible claims it or any art to be 100% complete. Good arts continue to evolve anyway, and as such the notion of "completeness" doesn't fit.

Can an incomplete art still be effective self defence? Definitely.

I think the last point is an important distinction. There is a difference between learning self defense and studying martial arts. The former had a definite goal, the later has no end because every culture has a means of "street" defense where as every culture also has martial arts. It's like saying "I want to learn math" (a universal) vs "I want learn how to communicate" (just think of the languages to learn).

 

[senseiblackbelt]

ffs. thnkfully ididnt do wing chun.

 

[geezer]

Back in about 1995, before my instructor parted ways with him, William Cheung demonstrated a defence against a takedown that was more or less a sprawl. He wrapped both arms around the guy's waist (which is much less effective than, say, a wrestling front headlock, and, one might say, is a typical rookie mistake) and kicked his legs back, not nearly far enough.

Would this work against guys in your WC club who don't know zip about effective takedowns trying to tackle you? Probably. Would it work against any decent high school level wrestler? Highly unlikely.

Excellent post. Back in the 80's my old sifu, Leung Ting, demonstrated his anti-grappling and anti-takedown defenses. Somewhat different techniques than you describe William Cheung demonstrating, but the upshot was the same. I pity the fool that tries to use that stuff against a good grappler.

Despite the cheesy quality of LT's promotional material, he had some really good WC (what he called WT of course). William Cheung had good stuff too, although no right headed "WT" guy would ever admit it. But for reasons of ego and profit, neither of these guys would admit the limitations of WC. And look what that has done to the reputation of the art.

People don't realize that WC is a great art within it's niche, and if you approach it conceptually, it is very adaptable to cross-training with certain other arts such as grappling as well as weapon-oriented arts like FMA. IMO this is the way WC should be approached. Your post inspires me to get more serious about my grappling...even at my age!

 

[geezer]

ffs. thnkfully ididnt do wing chun.

?

 

[KPM]

^^^ He evidently didn't learn how to use a keyboard either!

 

[drop bear]

Excellent post. Back in the 80's my old sifu, Leung Ting, demonstrated his anti-grappling and anti-takedown defenses. Somewhat different techniques than you describe William Cheung demonstrating, but the upshot was the same. I pity the fool that tries to use that stuff against a good grappler.

Despite the cheesy quality of LT's promotional material, he had some really good WC (what he called WT of course). William Cheung had good stuff too, although no right headed "WT" guy would ever admit it. But for reasons of ego and profit, neither of these guys would admit the limitations of WC. And look what that has done to the reputation of the art.

People don't realize that WC is a great art within it's niche, and if you approach it conceptually, it is very adaptable to cross-training with certain other arts such as grappling as well as weapon-oriented arts like FMA. IMO this is the way WC should be approached. Your post inspires me to get more serious about my grappling...even at my age!

Trying to cross train outside your system will mean that you have to change a few of your basic principles.

So trying to wrestle with a bunch of wing chun rules will just make you crap at both.

 

[geezer]

Trying to cross train outside your system will mean that you have to change a few of your basic principles. So trying to wrestle with a bunch of wing chun rules will just make you crap at both.

...So you change the rules . I'm all for concepts and such, but functionality is the bottom line.

 

[Juany118]

...So you change the rules . I'm all for concepts and such, but functionality is the bottom line.

Exactly. I also think people sometimes get principles and techniques confused. A perfect example is the WC Centerline principle. With every Martial art you want to protect your center. While some Martial arts also include some wide oblique attacks, many/most attack via the centerline plane. Also most martial arts follow the concept of attacking the opponent's center. This doesn't mean just "striking" it though, disrupting/controlling/unbalancing the center. Now WC typically does this with strikes BUT an Aikido practitioner does the same thing with its throws and takedowns, as does a Jujutsu practitioner etc.

Structure, the method of striking, these are techniques that WC applies to the Centerline principle. This I idea I think can be applied to any Martial art.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly. I also think people sometimes get principles and techniques confused. A perfect example is the WC Centerline principle. With every Martial art you want to protect your center. While some Martial arts also include some wide oblique attacks, many/most attack via the centerline plane. Also most martial arts follow the concept of attacking the opponent's center. This doesn't mean just "striking" it though, disrupting/controlling/unbalancing the center. Now WC typically does this with strikes BUT an Aikido practitioner does the same thing with its throws and takedowns, as does a Jujutsu practitioner etc.

Structure, the method of striking, these are techniques that WC applies to the Centerline principle. This I idea I think can be applied to any Martial art.

Would have thought a good sprawl worked exactly the opposite to center line. As you are both kind of moving in circles and almost trying to free up the center

 

[senseiblackbelt]

^^^ He evidently didn't learn how to use a keyboard either!

lol. where are laughing emojis?