Wing Chun powerless against aggressive boxers?

[mograph]

"Ip Man 7: The Boxer Rebellion"

It won't be brief.
But it might be a short.

 

[Juany118]

Actually Wong gives an example of how 'He' uses his wing chun to defend verses an aggressive boxer. He also says it is dangerous but a wing chun man can defend against the boxer. He states at the end the 'if' the wing man is not up to a good standard the boxer will be a problem and that one must train and train properly to understand the boxer attacks.

Again one must practice, learn and understand range, timing, and angles.

Izzo says something similar. He also makes it clear that you have to go in FAST and hard bridging that gap ASAP, essentially flooding them and not being afraid to take a hit when you do so (overly simplistic but that is the short form). If you don't you essentially are begging the boxer to simply "go to work" on you. Thing is most schools train students to fight different styles. Now this isn't always a bad thing because some Martial arts share the same basic strategy but if you are thinking about taking on a boxer you can fight him like you would another WC practitioner in class. I think the problem lies in something someone else once said (I can't remember who) that WC has become a "chi sau culture" in many corners.

@anerlich also makes good points regarding conditioning, cardio and learning to take hits.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nah. He's keeping the forum active at least.

Not in any useful way.

 

[mograph]

Not in any useful way.

High noise, low signal.

(Yeah, I know -- I should talk.)

 

[SaulGoodman]

Anyone who has taken the time to spar with a boxer (an actively training one, not a fellow student playing being a boxer) will benefit hugely from the experience. Didn't like the getting a sore a head bit but it helped (and helps) in the development of my skillset.

 

[Hanzou]

What pisses me off about that vid is that he could spend a very short amount of time in a proper grappling art and learn more practical methods instead of just making crap up.

 

[SaulGoodman]

What pisses me off about that vid is that he could spend a very short amount of time in a proper grappling art and learn more practical methods instead of just making crap up.

That is a classic example of someone who wants people to think their art has an answer for every range without ever actually testing it. Beyond embarrassing, as Hanzou said a novice grappler with solid fundamentals would destroy this guy on the ground. An old instructor of mine once told me "teach what you KNOW not what you THINK you know".

 

[Red Sun]

That is a classic example of someone who wants people to think their art has an answer for every range without ever actually testing it. Beyond embarrassing, as Hanzou said a novice grappler with solid fundamentals would destroy this guy on the ground. An old instructor of mine once told me "teach what you KNOW not what you THINK you know".

...if you don't mind me adding to the addage: "Teach what you KNOW, not what you THINK you know and not what you WANT to know."

 

[SaulGoodman]

Also this is a widespread thing imo, I corresponded briefly with Dominic Izzo after he had said somewhere that a good Wc man doesn't need formal grappling skills to be effective on the ground. I asked if he was really serious and he was like "absolutely, snt contains all the ground fighting you need" (paraphrasing here). I didn't continue the conversation at this point as I guessed that he must have missed watching the first 20 ufc's...

 

[Juany118]

Also this is a widespread thing imo, I corresponded briefly with Dominic Izzo after he had said somewhere that a good Wc man doesn't need formal grappling skills to be effective on the ground. I asked if he was really serious and he was like "absolutely, snt contains all the ground fighting you need" (paraphrasing here). I didn't continue the conversation at this point as I guessed that he must have missed watching the first 20 ufc's...

Izzo sure as hell has a level of arrogance when it comes to grappling that is silly, hell in general, and he is luckily honest about that. Where he is dead on though, and it relates directly to the boxing thing, is that WC in a real fight cant be Chi Sau like BS. You have to go in period. WC is about "the best defense is a good offense." If you don't go in with serious intent, close that gap and attack, be willing to take a hit, you are going to be at a disadvantage. That isn't making crap up, that is how WC works.

On an aside I would also wonder if, in your conversation, he was referring to "his" WC because I remember an old video where he had a guy showing how to integrate sprawling in order to avoid takes downs etc.

However the lack of ground game is, in part, why I also study Inosanto Kali since that has some ground game to it (along with the weapons, which is relevant to my job.)

 

[SaulGoodman]

Izzo sure as hell has a level of arrogance when it comes to grappling that is silly, hell in general, and he is luckily honest about that. Where he is dead on though, and it relates directly to the boxing thing, is that WC in a real fight cant be Chi Sau like BS. You have to go in period. WC is about "the best defense is a good offense." If you don't go in with serious intent, close that gap and attack, be willing to take a hit, you are going to be at a disadvantage. That isn't making crap up, that is how WC works.

On an aside I would also wonder if, in your conversation, he was referring to "his" WC because I remember an old video where he had a guy showing how to integrate sprawling in order to avoid takes downs etc.

However the lack of ground game is, in part, why I also study Inosanto Kali since that has some ground game to it (along with the weapons, which is relevant to my job.)

No, he was talking about Wc in general, show me where the sprawl in snt is and I will quit training grappling. Izzo is just paying lip service to what most practitioners say regarding all out offense/forward pressure etc when using Wc for real. I lost what (little) opinion I had of Izzo after I saw him play chi Sao with that Danny Horgan clown....

 

[Juany118]

No, he was talking about Wc in general, show me where the sprawl in snt is and I will quit training grappling. Izzo is just paying lip service to what most practitioners say regarding all out offense/forward pressure etc when using Wc for real. I lost what (little) opinion I had of Izzo after I saw him play chi Sao with that Danny Horgan clown....

Well he isn't playing lip service because look at tan, bong, gaun etc. They are all forwarding energies. You can not effectively apply a forwarding energy while you are retreating. On dealing with boxing he is right on. My Sifu says the same thing AND isn't a fan of Izzo in the least either. This isn't to say you attack stupidly, that you don't try to get to the blind side, but the "best defense is the best offense" idea comes not just from my Sifu but With Keith Mazza, Grand Master Cheung's US Rep (I attended one of his seminars once as he is my Sifu's Sifu.

Don't know anything about Horgan or the video you are talking about. I have only watched about 5 of Izzo's because his attitude gets on my nerves. The boxing wrestling and a couple on LE tactics are above as far as I got.

Onto grappling

As for the grappling bit it is why I said "his WC." Izzo repeatedly talks about how he was first a wrestler, how that is his passion. There is a video from like 4 years ago where he shows what amount to wrestling techniques but what he refers to as consistent with WC because it involves the application of a few WC techniques with a different body structure (basically what you would expect from a wrestler). He excuses this by saying "remember all of my videos are conceptual based." Do I think that is a stretch of my idea of WC being a conceptual martial art? Yep. However remember, he is an arrogant opinionated SOB who often also says "my WC is not their WC." So you and I might not call it WC but he sees it as part of "his" WC so when he answers the question he is being honest, from what he sees as the WC he teaches. Not defending the guy on this point btw, I would tend to agree it's not the WC I know.

 

[Juany118]

Okay found Horgan's website. He is more than a clown. Not sure what he is but clown just doesn't describe it.

 

[SaulGoodman]

When you say "more than a clown" I sincerely hope you don't think this guy has any ability...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When you say "more than a clown" I sincerely hope you don't think this guy has any ability...

I think he meant "beyond being a clown" - as in more clowny than a clown.

 

[SaulGoodman]

I think he meant "beyond being a clown" - as in more clowny than a clown.

Yeah I hoped that was the case

 

[drop bear]

What pisses me off about that vid is that he could spend a very short amount of time in a proper grappling art and learn more practical methods instead of just making crap up.

He could but the whole point is he doesn't have to. He can go through life being a crap grappler and it will be the same for him as if he was a good one.

Nobody is ever going to throw him to the ground and submit him any time soon.

Your average boxer as an example someone really will be trying to knock them out.

 

[Juany118]

When you say "more than a clown" I sincerely hope you don't think this guy has any ability...

Oh HELL NO. I literally mean it is a term inadequate to described the simultaneous feelings of disbelief and shock I had at such epic failure. Clowns to me result in laughter. I couldn't laugh because what I saw was too tragic.

If it was satire I would agree clown but I think the guy actually is serious.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Oh HELL NO. I literally mean it is a term inadequate to described the simultaneous feelings of disbelief and shock I had at such epic failure. Clowns to me result in laughter. I couldn't laugh because what I saw was too tragic.

If it was satire I would agree clown but I think the guy actually is serious.

Ha, you come across as being a little too savvy to be a fan of that guy! I'm curious about what elenents of your Kali training help with ground fighting Juany. Do you focus on using Kali to prevent going to the ground and/or work on escapes from positions like mount/side control/kesa gatame ?

 

[Juany118]

Ha, you come across as being a little too savvy to be a fan of that guy! I'm curious about what elenents of your Kali training help with ground fighting Juany. Do you focus on using Kali to prevent going to the ground and/or work on escapes from positions like mount/side control/kesa gatame ?

Well Inosanto Kali actually has ground fighting because it's like JKD (something like 26 different MAs, but much of them are FMA) Not as much as say Jujutsu but it has take downs, "ground and pound", basic locks like arm bars, but also some vicious eye gouging etc. Guro Dan refers to it as a "Mixed Martial Arts Concept" as opposed to the sport.

However while trained in the others I personally focus on the bits that are useful for self-defense, imo, and my job. Being on the ground can be damn dangerous on the street (multiple people, concrete and tile are hard, furniture etc), my career adds the imperative of weapon retention. So I focus on the training regarding avoiding going to the ground period. If it's inevitable going there on my terms so I can recover ASAP (and still be attacking and defending on the way down and up) or at least, once on the ground, be in a position to keep the "bad guy" from coming down to join me with foot/leg techniques etc. If I have to fight on the ground I can and will but my first goal in training and in practice is to avoid it.

I really think with ground fighting you need to look at your purpose.