Wing Chun & Philly Shell I Like What I Saw. Slight Change To Bong Sao

[JowGaWolf]

It is just that many of these martials arts, as times became more peaceful, were being taught by people who never fought. So many of the true meanings and applications became lost.

Yep. It's difficult to find someone who can actually fight with kung fu techniques. Not so much with Karate and TKD, but definitely with Kung Fu. The fighting experience is a must.

Anyone can teach a person how to jab. But only those with experience with using the Jab can teach a person how to actually use it. There's a lot of detail about a jab that comes with experience. Kung Fu and Martial arts in general is just like this. The experience of actual use is critical for full understanding.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There's a lot of detail about a jab that comes with experience.

You can use jab to force your opponent to respond. You can also use jab to grab-pull.

The boxing uses less trapping that CMA does. This is why IMO, CMA is much easier to integrate the striking art and the grappling art than boxing does.

It's again a trade off. Without trapping, you can have much faster striking combo (because you don't have to think about grab-pull). But with trapping, the striking art can cross over the grappling art smoothly.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Same here. One hand stirkes the other hand guards. The biggest difference with Kung Fu and Boxing is that Kung Fu comes from the perspective "Clearing hands" and Boxing comes come the perspective of "Guarding Hands" "Clearing hands" implement defense by attacking or disrupting incoming strikes. Boxing implements defense by using guards.

On the sparring stuff we agree.

But Jow Ga has boxing guards in it. I'm happy to bore you with details too.

Boxing inside China is no different from boxing outside China. It never was. What I think is happening is, as you learn Southern family styles, you get a certain translation, and it's up to you to make it functional.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The boxing uses less trapping that CMA does. This is why IMO, CMA is much easier to integrate the striking art and the grappling art than boxing does.

Remember Floyd vs. McGregor?

Imagine Floyd vs. Cung Le.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But Jow Ga has boxing guards in it. I'm happy to bore you with details too.

You can bore me when you can show me where I make that claim.

"The biggest difference with Kung Fu and Boxing is that Kung Fu comes from the perspective "Clearing hands" and Boxing comes come the perspective of "Guarding Hands" "Clearing hands" implement defense by attacking or disrupting incoming strikes. Boxing implements defense by using guards."

Pow Choy, Pec Choy, Kum choy, Kup Choy, Ju Sao, and a lot of other techniques are "Clearing hands"

Sei Ping Kuen
More Clearing hands than guard. Notice that the hands to no not sit next to the face to guard the face

Small Tiger. A more advanced form. Same thing. The hands to not sit next to the face to guard the face
More Clearing Hands than guard

More example of clearing hands. The hands to do not sit next to the face to guard when a punch comes in. The hands clear incoming punches.

This is standard boxing guard. If you are fighting with a lot of Jow Ga techniques then your fist will rarely be in this position. Does Jow Ga have guards. Yes, We have some for defending punches, take downs, and kicks. but this isn't the root of how Jow Ga deals with defending punches. If this is how you fight when you spar using Jow Ga then you probably aren't using a lot of Jow Ga techniques. Have I used this guard before in Jow Ga Sparring. Of course, and it usually comes out when I'm not able to track a series of punches

But the majority of the times I use what you see below. 1 Clearing arm 1 guarding arm.
@Ivan I forgot about this picture but it's the same principle that @Terrible Tim Witherspoon was talking about. The context with of this this picture @Alan0354 and @Ivan I was explaining the use of a low stance to use against a take down attempt. I told the student to go for my waste. I told him I would not punch or kick. I would only drop my stance. I started out in a tall stance and dropped to this level. What you are seeing here is that my waist is out of range. He must get through my clearing arm first and he must get through my guarding arm which is also in position to strike if the opportunity presents itself. Both are my legs are bent so I can push forward or backwards at will.

In this stance I'm like a two horn Rhinoceros

 

[Oily Dragon]

No interest in the Wood Squeezing Fist? Or Monk Carries Wine?

Eek.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It never was. What I think is happening is, as you learn Southern family styles, you get a certain translation, and it's up to you to make it functional.

See I don't believe in the "You make it functional" The system is already functional. If I don't have the ability to or skills to do a Tornado kick then there's nothing I can do to "Make it functional." I'm the one that's not functional. Not the technique. Most of the time, in legitimate fighting systems. If a student use a technique, then it's not because the technique isn't functional. It's because the student doesn't have enough understanding of the application of the technique.

You can always choose techniques that work best with your ability and understanding, which would be a lot better than trying to "make a technique work." There's nothing in Jow Ga that "I've made work" If I didn't get it right then I studied what I did wrong, I took a look at what I did and compared it to what I was taught. 99% of the time It was my lack of understanding of a technique that was the cause of my failure.

It's like math. You can't "Make math work." If my goal is to reach 5 then I can't make 1+1=5. Kung fu is like that. You can't make it work. The only thing that will work is understanding what you are doing. The better you understand what you are doing the more it will work for you. The only way to understand it, is to spar with the techniques you train.

I just truly believe that no one can "make kung fu work." it's either done with understanding or it's not.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Remember Floyd vs. McGregor?

Imagine Floyd vs. Cung Le.

Floyd understood his limitations. He's a smart fighter and followed what I'm always saying here. "Don't play in other people's sand box.." McGregor played in the boxing sand box. Floyd didn't play in the MMA sandbox. If there was a Floyd vs Cung Le, then it would be the same rules. McGregor was clearly the better fighter, but Floyd was the better boxer.

web

 

[Oily Dragon]

See I don't believe in the "You make it functional" The system is already functional. If I don't have the ability to or skills to do a Tornado kick then there's nothing I can do to "Make it functional." I'm the one that's not functional. Not the technique. Most of the time, in legitimate fighting systems. If a student use a technique, then it's not because the technique isn't functional. It's because the student doesn't have enough understanding of the application of the technique.

You can always choose techniques that work best with your ability and understanding, which would be a lot better than trying to "make a technique work." There's nothing in Jow Ga that "I've made work" If I didn't get it right then I studied what I did wrong, I took a look at what I did and compared it to what I was taught. 99% of the time It was my lack of understanding of a technique that was the cause of my failure.

It's like math. You can't "Make math work." If my goal is to reach 5 then I can't make 1+1=5. Kung fu is like that. You can't make it work. The only thing that will work is understanding what you are doing. The better you understand what you are doing the more it will work for you. The only way to understand it, is to spar with the techniques you train.

I just truly believe that no one can "make kung fu work." it's either done with understanding or it's not.

But kung fu means "skill from work", so you worked at your kung fu, and that's what led to the understanding you now possess.

You said it yourself, "I'm the one that's not functional". Techniques don't even exist until you make them functional. They're fairy tales, right up to the moment. Like Schrodinger's cat.

It's funny you brought up "tornado kick", because it's something I've always struggled with. One of the dao forms I know has a tornado kick, and I kind of cheat at it...that was a good example.

 

[Oily Dragon]

McGregor was clearly the better fighter, but Floyd was the better boxer.

Well they're both fighters. I agree McGregor was handicapped in a sense but I think he's the lesser fighter, and his lack of poise and control led to his downfall.

And that's saying a lot, considering Floyd's bad boy behaviors.

 

[Flying Crane]

But kung fu means "skill from work", so you worked at your kung fu, and that's what led to the understanding you now possess.

You said it yourself, "I'm the one that's not functional". Techniques don't even exist until you make them functional. They're fairy tales, right up to the moment. Like Schrodinger's cat.

It's funny you brought up "tornado kick", because it's something I've always struggled with. One of the dao forms I know has a tornado kick, and I kind of cheat at it...that was a good example.

I was athletic enough, and was a capoeira guy for a while. So the tornado kick was always something I could do without a lot of trouble. I use to train it on a heavy bag, but landed the second kick as a roundhouse. We use it a lot in capoeira, and call it parafuse or something, I believe it means helicopter or propeller. At any rate, my dao set also has this in it. As I get older, I also cheat a little with it. But even when I was younger, even though I could do the kick nicely, I doubt I could pull it off in a real fight. I used it in the capoeira roda a lot, but a real fight is different. It just feels like a low-percentage technique and there are usually better options. Perhaps the best use for the kick is simply keeping your athleticism up, especially as we age.

As for using kung fu techniques, it is my belief both that the techniques can be used as they are taught, but they don’t have to be and are often not the real point in the training. The real point of the training is body connection and building a unified foundation with which you can do anything you want. It teaches you to move powerfully and efficiently, no matter what you do. The techniques serve as examples and help you learn and understand how to do this. But ultimately you do what you want with it. It can mean using the techniques as they are taught, it can mean altering things to your own use, it can mean doing entirely different things with that foundation that you built and with the lessons you learned from that training.

But whatever you do with it, it is yours to do as you will.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Like a baby bird learns to fly.

Like the Wing Chun elders, I always look to the natural world whenever I get too silly and sophisticated in my noggin, about this stuff. Before all these systems, animals were teaching each other how to fight.

The Secret Call of the Wild: How Animals Teach Each Other to Survive

Cultural knowledge, passed from animal to animal, is key to how species adapt to change in the world around them.

getpocket.com

 

[Flying Crane]

Like a baby bird learns to fly.

Like the Wing Chun elders, I always look to the natural world whenever I get too silly and sophisticated in my noggin, about this stuff. Before all these systems, animals were teaching each other how to fight.

The Secret Call of the Wild: How Animals Teach Each Other to Survive

Cultural knowledge, passed from animal to animal, is key to how species adapt to change in the world around them.

getpocket.com

I believe it is very easy to over-think this stuff and get too complicated with it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"The biggest difference with Kung Fu and Boxing is that Kung Fu comes from the perspective "Clearing hands" and Boxing comes come the perspective of "Guarding Hands" "Clearing hands" implement defense by attacking or disrupting incoming strikes. Boxing implements defense by using guards."

This is a very important difference between CMA and boxing. CMA has "comb hair" that may look similar to the boxing guard. But it's used to deflect opponent's punch and not just to protect your own head.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It just feels like a low-percentage technique and there are usually better options. Perhaps the best use for the kick is simply keeping your athleticism up, especially as we age.

This is how it feels to me. Instead of "trying to make it work" by "cheating" I would rather just find a technique that is a better fit for me. There are some people who can pull that kick off in the fight. I'm just not one of them.

I find it interesting that you both say that you "cheat" to do it, but all three of us still don't have the skill level to use it in a real fight. Despite your efforts to "make it work." For me, I know where my issue lies. I do not understand it well enough to generate the spin I need in order to be effective with it. For now, I can't train it until I lose about 30 lbs. I don't want my knees to have to deal with that weight in that manner

 

[Flying Crane]

This is how it feels to me. Instead of "trying to make it work" by "cheating" I would rather just find a technique that is a better fit for me. There are some people who can pull that kick off in the fight. I'm just not one of them.

I find it interesting that you both say that you "cheat" to do it, but all three of us still don't have the skill level to use it in a real fight. Despite your efforts to "make it work." For me, I know where my issue lies. I do not understand it well enough to generate the spin I need in order to be effective with it. For now, I can't train it until I lose about 30 lbs. I don't want my knees to have to deal with that weight in that manner

I guess what I mean by cheating it is simply that I’m not in the kind of shape I was when I was younger and don’t care so much about the aerials anymore. So that kick ends up being a bit…not so clean and pretty… and I don’t worry about it.

 

[Oily Dragon]

it's used to deflect opponent's punch and not just to protect your own head.

These are often the same thing though, especially in full contact competition. Boxing has all that "clearing" hands stuff, too. Because it all works. All of it.

Boxing guards aren't static either, they are dynamic, they are always moving, like a dragon. That's why Wing Chun students are so hard on boxing: they're jealous of it!

Boxers do Wing Chun better than Wing Chun does Wing Chun.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I guess what I mean by cheating it is simply that I’m not in the kind of shape I was when I was younger and don’t care so much about the aerials anymore. So that kick ends up being a bit…not so clean and pretty… and I don’t worry about it.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[jurat13]

These are often the same thing though, especially in full contact competition. Boxing has all that "clearing" hands stuff, too. Because it all works. All of it.

Boxing guards aren't static either, they are dynamic, they are always moving, like a dragon. That's why Wing Chun students are so hard on boxing: they're jealous of it!

Boxers do Wing Chun better than Wing Chun does Wing Chun.

Depends on the Wing Chun school maybe? My Sifu encourages us to integrate other arts in our Wing Chun. He encourages us to cross train in Muay Thai, BJJ, Kali, Silat, Combat Wrestling, and Western Boxing. In fact, we can’t advance to the next level in Wing Chun unless we have done some training in Muay Thai and BJJ at the equivalent level.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Depends on the Wing Chun school maybe? My Sifu encourages us to integrate other arts in our Wing Chun. He encourages us to cross train in Muay Thai, BJJ, Kali, Silat, Combat Wrestling, and Western Boxing. In fact, we can’t advance to the next level in Wing Chun unless we have done some training in Muay Thai and BJJ at the equivalent level.

Depends on the teacher and how seriously they trained, which is a hard thing to divine based on just talk. The best thing to do is get to know your teacher for real, and not rely on just faith.

The guy who taught me Wing Chun also taught me several other styles, but he would always throw in little nuggets of sparring wisdom that only comes from experience.

Such as "don't ever fight in the Goat Riding stance, you'll probably die". Not his words exactly, but right on target.