Wing Chun & Philly Shell I Like What I Saw. Slight Change To Bong Sao

[Terrible Tim Witherspoon]

Terrible Tim Witherspoon 2X heavyweight champion of the world. I like Wing Chun's Bong Sao, if changed slightly it is just like the Philly Shell. I mean no disrespect to Wing Chun so forgive me if I don't get your move 100%. I do like it and think it is functional.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hi Tim. Welcome to MartialTalk! It’s a pleasure to have such an accomplished competitor on the site.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Terrible Tim Witherspoon 2X heavyweight champion of the world. I like Wing Chun's Bong Sao, if changed slightly it is just like the Philly Shell. I mean no disrespect to Wing Chun so forgive me if I don't get your move 100%. I do like it and think it is functional.

Floyd Mayweather has some of the best Crane technique of anyone living.

 

[tim po]

Floyd Mayweather has some of the best Crane technique of anyone living.

Floyd Mayweather has some of the best Crane technique of anyone living.

This is a very good point that I see often. I haven't watched a ton of MMA but I have watched enough to see many knockouts that happened for this very reason: low hands.

In my limited experience with Wing Chun, I feel that there is a connection between the elbows and solar plexus region, and power is transfer to the arms from this lower cage. in this way strikes, blocks, and trapping come straight from the center, getting inside where attacks can occur that are not allowed in sports. In Boxing, the shoulders lead the punch, and twisting delivers power from the hips, and this more naturally coincides with a higher defensive cage.

Also in boxing the range of targets are limited, and lower body attacks are not expected. the lower arm positions in many martial arts are because they were developed to fight against other martial artists, who kick. In a fight to the death, knockout is well and good, but the strikes are often aimed at the throat not the jaw, and a higher cage could even expose the brachial artery on the underside of the upper arm as a target. Likewise, a lower arm position will be a mistake against a skilled boxer.

I often say that every MMA competitor needs to put in their time in a boxing gym, and every martial artist needs to at least study boxing long enough to take it seriously. A skilled boxer is no joke, boxing is powerful, and very sensible. adapting traditional movements to modern martial styles requires a flexible discipline, and that is what MMA is really doing now as traditional martial arts adapt to modern relevance.

 

[Flying Crane]

… and every martial artist needs to at least study boxing long enough to take it seriously.

Well no, we don’t. Unless you find it interesting. Then go ahead.

A skilled boxer is no joke, boxing is powerful, and very sensible.

Just like any of the traditional martial arts can be. It depends on the individual, and how well they have trained. Boxing does not have a monopoly on any of that.

 

[Terrible Tim Witherspoon]

Hi Tim. Welcome to MartialTalk! It’s a pleasure to have such an accomplished competitor on the site.

My pleasure!! I look forward to sharing and learning!

 

[Terrible Tim Witherspoon]

Floyd Mayweather has some of the best Crane technique of anyone living.

I would love to learn about this!

 

[Terrible Tim Witherspoon]

This is a very good point that I see often. I haven't watched a ton of MMA but I have watched enough to see many knockouts that happened for this very reason: low hands.

In my limited experience with Wing Chun, I feel that there is a connection between the elbows and solar plexus region, and power is transfer to the arms from this lower cage. in this way strikes, blocks, and trapping come straight from the center, getting inside where attacks can occur that are not allowed in sports. In Boxing, the shoulders lead the punch, and twisting delivers power from the hips, and this more naturally coincides with a higher defensive cage.

Also in boxing the range of targets are limited, and lower body attacks are not expected. the lower arm positions in many martial arts are because they were developed to fight against other martial artists, who kick. In a fight to the death, knockout is well and good, but the strikes are often aimed at the throat not the jaw, and a higher cage could even expose the brachial artery on the underside of the upper arm as a target. Likewise, a lower arm position will be a mistake against a skilled boxer.

I often say that every MMA competitor needs to put in their time in a boxing gym, and every martial artist needs to at least study boxing long enough to take it seriously. A skilled boxer is no joke, boxing is powerful, and very sensible. adapting traditional movements to modern martial styles requires a flexible discipline, and that is what MMA is really doing now as traditional martial arts adapt to modern relevance.

I think we can all learn from each other, and I look forward to spending time with many different arts and sharing!

 

[tim po]

Well no, we don’t. Unless you find it interesting. Then go ahead.



Just like any of the traditional martial arts can be. It depends on the individual, and how well they have trained. Boxing does not have a monopoly on any of that.

of course, but that was not my point. It is my opinion that failing to take a boxer seriously is a mistake, in sport or self-defense training. that's all. I apparently need to stop saying other people need to anything, bad linguistic habit. but you don't have to be wrong for me to be right.

 

[Flying Crane]

of course, but that was not my point. It is my opinion that failing to take a boxer seriously is a mistake, in sport or self-defense training. that's all. I apparently need to stop saying other people need to anything, bad linguistic habit. but you don't have to be wrong for me to be right.

Of course, anyone should take a boxer seriously.

Maybe I’m overly sensitive to this, but yeah, when someone says, “everyone needs to go train X” my immediate response is, no, I don’t.

It’s not personal. I appreciate the clarification.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I apparently need to stop saying other people need to anything, bad linguistic habit. but you don't have to be wrong for me to be right.

But if we look at from the other angle, to say, "As long as you are happy, I can't careless whether you think you need to ...," is also bad linguistic.

I don't like to use the word "I" in my post as if I'm the center of the university and the sun is rotating around me. I like to use the general term YOU instead. Unfortunately, when I use the term "YOU", some people may think I try to shove my opinion into their throats.

So I don't know which is better.

- I like to ... (self-center talk).
- You may like ... (shove opinion into other's throats).

My opinion about the Bong Shou is you may give your opponent a chance to pull your Bong Shou arm across your body to jam your own back arm. IMO, to expose your elbow joint to your opponent is not a good idea.

 

[geezer]

My opinion about the Bong Shou is you may give your opponent a chance to pull your Bong Shou arm across your body to jam your own back arm. IMO, to expose your elbow joint to your opponent is not a good idea.

Every technique has a weakness, or comes with a liability. A good martial artist should be aware of that weakness and do a sort of cost to benefit analysis when evaluating it.

For me, bong sau is worth the risk. But given a choice I prefer a strike. Bong is too defensive to be a first choice. That is why in our lineage, we reserve bong for when our opponent "makes our bong" by crashing force and bending our arm with his strike.

And, you don't hang out in bong-sau posture. Bong never stays. Besides we train how to respond to somebody trying to grab our elbow. We train that a lot.

And, like the champ, Tim Witherspoon says in his video at 2:16, after using bong, "You come back with something..." He's a boxer, so he has an idea of what's going on ...after all Wing Chun is Chinese Boxing right?

 

[Oily Dragon]

I would love to learn about this!

A lot of different Crane styles in Asia focus on head evasion using waist agility and the ability to *roll* the body (and face) around attacks. And then doing that until attacking becomes an option. Usually using the limbs as the tug of war fulcrum.

I posted an Egret vs. Snake battle a few threads ago. An Egret is a heron, not a crane, but if you imagine Mayweather as the Egret, he wins by points on decision, in the Wing Chun ruleset.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My pleasure!! I look forward to sharing and learning!

I hope you'll read through some of the ongoing discussions and jump in where you feel inspired to. For example, in this thread we have a young man who is asking for advice on some troubles he's having with his boxing sparring. I think you are more qualified than anybody else on this forum to give him the feedback he's looking for.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Every technique has a weakness,

I don't think the OP has considered the "wrong Bong" situation.

 

[Terrible Tim Witherspoon]

I hope you'll read through some of the ongoing discussions and jump in where you feel inspired to. For example, in this thread we have a young man who is asking for advice on some troubles he's having with his boxing sparring. I think you are more qualified than anybody else on this forum to give him the feedback he's looking for.

Absolutely and look forward to sharing my advice!

 

[Oily Dragon]

I finally had a chance to fully watch both videos. Very refreshing insights, Tim.

A quick Google will pull up what Tim is talking about, if you know what to look for.

If I have some time later I'll dig into the library to find some more good old school pics that show how Tim is instinctively getting right what many, many kung fu dudes get wrong, on many levels about "tying hand" techniques, namely the failure to protect oneself at all times, the pugilist's motto.

One hand high, one low, one long, one short. It sounds a lot cooler in Cantonese.

 

[Terrible Tim Witherspoon]

I finally had a chance to fully watch both videos. Very refreshing insights, Tim.

A quick Google will pull up what Tim is talking about, if you know what to look for.

If I have some time later I'll dig into the library to find some more good old school pics that show how Tim is instinctively getting right what many, many kung fu dudes get wrong, on many levels about "tying hand" techniques, namely the failure to protect oneself at all times, the pugilist's motto.

One hand high, one low, one long, one short. It sounds a lot cooler in Cantonese.

View attachment 27727

I love this! These techniques were from a time where people were fighting to the death!! No refs or rules!! It is just that many of these martials arts, as times became more peaceful, were being taught by people who never fought. So many of the true meanings and applications became lost. Interestingly for myself I can look at these moves and see the combat application. I am really looking forward to working with some Kung Fu masters and doing videos with them.

 

[Grandmaster Yue men quan]

The wu sau hand is to guard the center gates the upper position which you showed is to block if the first punching hand of the opponent pins and the opposite strikes over the hand in the rear then blocks it to the side the position you showed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I finally had a chance to fully watch both videos. Very refreshing insights, Tim.

A quick Google will pull up what Tim is talking about, if you know what to look for.

If I have some time later I'll dig into the library to find some more good old school pics that show how Tim is instinctively getting right what many, many kung fu dudes get wrong, on many levels about "tying hand" techniques, namely the failure to protect oneself at all times, the pugilist's motto.

One hand high, one low, one long, one short. It sounds a lot cooler in Cantonese.

View attachment 27727

I don't think the schools get it wrong. I just think that they don't use the techniques when sparring. Most people who train Kung Fu aren't functional with it. They do it for fun, exercise, and because the forms are cool. Because of the disconnect between form and application. The student may not realize that the secondary guard hand is actually functional.

If you don't train kung fu applications in sparring then this position will have no real meaning for you. For example. You will have people who will say what that rear hand is doing, but very few can actually show you how it works in sparring. But those who have actually tried to use it will definitely know.

Same here. One hand stirkes the other hand guards. The biggest difference with Kung Fu and Boxing is that Kung Fu comes from the perspective "Clearing hands" and Boxing comes come the perspective of "Guarding Hands" "Clearing hands" implement defense by attacking or disrupting incoming strikes. Boxing implements defense by using guards. But a person has to actually use kung fu techniques in their sparring to really understand this. From my own experience the "Clearing Hands" approach always made me feel like I was going to get knocked out and it took about 6 months for me to get really comfortable with how it works and the effectiveness of it. The students I taught that actually tried to use kung fu in sparring took about 6 months to get used to it as well.