William Durbin, Koga Ryu - Kosho Ryu connection?

[Jeff Boler]

All of his lineage comes directly from Juko Kai International. The only real lineage that Durbin has (Mitose wise) is through Hassan. As stated previously, Durbin has made a point in seeking out the three people directly connected to Mitose, and has received "recognition" from all three. (Juchnik, Thomas Mitose, and Hassan).

Sacharnoski's lineages mainly come from Seidokan Motobu Ryu, Kenshin Kan Shorin Ryu, and Dai Yoshin Ryu. (Not withstanding the questions that have risen about these.)

It should also be noted that Durbin claims lineage through Robert Trias of Shuri Ryu, through Bill Wallace. However, Durbin has never been an "in-dojo" student of Wallace. His training was strictly performed at various clinics.

 

[M.C. Busman]

If I remember correctly, Durbin's original kenpo training was under a teacher names R. Stone, a student of Ray Arquilla. Tracy's, no? Pre-Rod Sach daze.

Fujita's Koga ninjutsu was not passed down. He never documented it, but demonstrated stunts he called "Koga ninjutsu". Funny, Fujita documented and wrote books on everything else he taught. My opinion based on the writings of Nawa & others is that Koga was his "show" art. Does anyone out there think stealth ops back in old Japan had any use for glass eating and walking and needle piercing? These are sensational tricks. It dies with him, it probably started with him.

On Nimr Hassan (Terry Lee): Reading the trial transcript makes a number of things very evident. During his testimony Mitose talks about how he refused to take black students because of a number of stereotypical signs of inferiority. An exception was made for Hassan. The transcript leaves no question as to Mitose's admitted racism. He says he only worked on basic things with Hassan

Hassan stated during his testimony that he realized after all of the events that took place that Mitose was no true master. He sounded very bitter. His opinion appears to have changed over time.

Durbin states in one of his articles, "In The City of Brotherly Love..." that Hassan couldn't remember what happened the night of Frank Namimatsu's murder. Convenient, eh?

On Motobu/Mitose: Motobu's son has stated Mitose was never a student of his father's. Nor was the man Trias names as his first teacher, Tong-gee Hsing, a student of Motobu. The only apparent connection between Motobu and Mitose are the pictures Mitose lifted from another book and printed in his. Years ago I called Bruce Juchnik to query him on this and was told Mitose referred to Motobu was his martial art uncle, not blood.


Take Care & Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman

 

[GAB]

Hi,

I have read and talked to quite a few people who state the Japanese took in someone and they refered to them as their family but were not Blood.

It was very common, so when we (western) compare it to our culture it is quite different.

I think what M.C. posts and what Hanshi Juchnik has said makes sense to me.

I called many people uncle, as I was growing up, but they were not blood.
I know people today that are called uncle and are not blood also auntie comes to mind...

It is more common then mister...

Regards, Gary

 

[BlackCatBonz]

thanks for the reply prof joe.......i understand what you are saying.
i guess it goes to show what blood, sweat and tears will get you.
i still get a bit perturbed with people that accept these advanced rankings without showing the stuff, i also understand that they might be a pretty decent martial artist, but nowhere near what their rank implies. i have worked really hard, and im still just a shodan, and ive tested my stuff as a doorman in some pretty rough clubs.
i know this is getting off the subject of the thread......so i will go back by saying, people want to align themselves with anything that will bring them some sort of legitimacy, demonstrate a bit of skill, and hopefully receive some type of advanced rank without putting in the time. and lots of organizations are willing to accept these people simply because they want people all over the map as representatives.
i dont doubt that bill durbin is a skilled practitioner, and uses his teachings as a vehicle for his religion, but stand on your own merits then, instead of seeking out approval from anyone that might give it to you.

shawn

 

[Don Roley]

Well the primary source of the information is in fact Lee / Hassan. Now Durbin has stated in the past that Hassan showed him all of the documentation that Mitose had given him, but it contained no lineages or historical information. To my knowledge, Mitose never stated that his Koga Ryu Ninjutsu came from Fujita. This is nothing more than a theory of Durbin's.

Hmmmm. It seems strange that Hassan would have documentation from Mitose on the Koga ryu, but no mention in it of who Mitose learned it from....

Has anyone else seen this documentation? For that matter, can you say with certainty that Hassan was claiming to teach Koga ryu ninjutsu, and not just using the term "ninjutsu" before Durbin came up with his theory?

To be blunt, I do not trust just Durbin's, or Hassan's word on this. Especially after hearing from you that there was supposably documentation without an important element like the previous sokes that maintained the tradition. That is just something outside my experience in these matters.

 

[The Kai]

It's like his claim to learn Shuri-Ryu from Bill Wallace. Wallace does'nt teach Karate per se, just the streching and kicking drills.

Reading Master Kempo there are hugh leaps of logic that are bound together wi9th the phrase"it is believed". Then the theory becomes fact in the next sentence!
Todd

 

[Karazenpo]

thanks for the reply prof joe.......i understand what you are saying.
i guess it goes to show what blood, sweat and tears will get you.
i still get a bit perturbed with people that accept these advanced rankings without showing the stuff, i also understand that they might be a pretty decent martial artist, but nowhere near what their rank implies. i have worked really hard, and im still just a shodan, and ive tested my stuff as a doorman in some pretty rough clubs.
i know this is getting off the subject of the thread......so i will go back by saying, people want to align themselves with anything that will bring them some sort of legitimacy, demonstrate a bit of skill, and hopefully receive some type of advanced rank without putting in the time. and lots of organizations are willing to accept these people simply because they want people all over the map as representatives.
i dont doubt that bill durbin is a skilled practitioner, and uses his teachings as a vehicle for his religion, but stand on your own merits then, instead of seeking out approval from anyone that might give it to you.

shawn

And thanks for your reply too, Shawn. I also respect the fact that you use your art for real, not to knock anyone that doesn't have that opportunity but it does give you much more crediability as an instructor. I, for one, would love to sit down with you personally to hear your encounters, what you feel works and doesn't work because I know you aren't giving me theory but reality from first hand knowledge. I do that with people whenever I can, even the untrained because these are the guys that will most likely attack you. We learn for each other. I also know what you mean about advanced rank. Shawn, I've been studying for over 31 years and still workout to keep in shape at 52, I'm a 7th dan and I can't tell you how many people I know who haven't put in anything close to what I have and they're 8ths, 9ths and 10ths! I hear ya! but don't let it get you down. It used to bother me but I don't let it get to me anymore because they're just fooling themselves not to mention you can tell they're also 'uncomfortable' wearing their rank around those who really earned theirs. Take care & Be safe "Joe"

 

[Jeff Boler]

It's like his claim to learn Shuri-Ryu from Bill Wallace. Wallace does'nt teach Karate per se, just the streching and kicking drills.

Reading Master Kempo there are hugh leaps of logic that are bound together wi9th the phrase"it is believed". Then the theory becomes fact in the next sentence!
Todd

Yeah, and I 've always had a problem with the way he handles things like that. For instance, Juchnik and Thomas Mitose are actually listed on his lineages, even though the only thing they did for him was recognize him as the Soke of his art. (Which I see no sense in doing.) So even though he has never trained under them, they are listed.

It should also be noted that only Hassan's Kempo lineage is listed. There is nothing documenting where Fujita supposedly learned his Ninpo skills from.

Maybe it's in the book....

 

[The Kai]

Nope save your money! There is very little lineage info, just a alot of theorical history-you gotta love it"if in ancient okinwans practiced a art with both hard and soft movements, they might have called thier style GoJo Kempo. I practice Kempo ,therefore I claim Miyagi in my lineage

Todd

 

[Jeff Boler]

I practice Kempo ,therefore I claim Miyagi in my lineage

Todd

That's not funny, Miyagi does appear in his lineage....

 

[The Kai]

It was'nt supposed to be funny, I was just giving a example of the improbable connections that are made to support his claims. i am sorry if i rubbed you the wrong way

Todd

 

[Jeff Boler]

No, no, no, nothing like that. I just thought it was funny that in a jokingly way, you mention being linked to Miyagi, when in fact Durbin does have him listed on his lineages. Just about every major Okinawan Masters name appears in these lineages.

 

[The Kai]

I will look the book over this weekend, but I am pretty sure that how he traces most of his stuff back(I noticed there is very little physical presence in the sense of my teacher - who was taught by-who was taught by)

Todd

 

[The Kai]

From his website:

 In 1970, I began training with Richard Stone, in my hometown of Bardstown, KY. The primary art taught by him was Kodokan Judo, though he taught elements of Aikikai Aikido and Nippon Kempo, as well. I studied with Mr. Stone until the fall of 1971 at which time I went to Campbellsville College. During my time with Mr. Stone I also assisted in teaching. Over the years as a student I returned periodically to my first instructor to gather more knowledge and information from him.

I attended college from 1971 until 1975 graduating with a Bachelor of Arts in Bible, Religious Education, and Psychology. During that time I organized a self defense club with Bob Setser, a Shotokan Karate student, and Bos Bosmer, a fellow Kodokan Judo practitioner. Among the arts I studied at various times over those years were: Shotokan, Kodokan, Isshin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Aikikai, Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Shaolin Chunfa. Each semester I offered self defense classes in order to share my knowledge and to learn others arts. During the summers I worked various jobs and after four years at Campbellsville College had taught self defense in Ohio, Michigan, as well as, Kentucky.

While studying religion and philosophy in college, I began to learn about the concepts of Oriental philosophy. I learned about the Chinese Taoist concepts of Yin/Yang, with Yang representing the positive aspects of the universe. From my continued martial arts training I learned about Ki, the divine spirit; the principle of Ju, the gentle, yielding principle of the Japanese martial arts; and, Te the skill of Okinawan self defense, combat arts. Around 1974, while teaching self defense in Michigan, I coined the phrase Ki Yang Ju Te as my personal teaching philosophy for the martial arts.

Ayear of formal training, 4 years of informal training, Bam! new style, Ki Yang Ju Te is born. Judo+japanese kempo= Okinwan Te

1980, I was awarded my Shihan in Okinawan Goju Kempo Karate

After ten years of study-where did he learn this art?

that August, where I was able to demonstrate my skills during classes and at the Masters Demonstration, where I gave a stretching and kicking exhibition, Dr. Sacharnoski awarded my Kaiden, indicating that I was a master of all traditions. In a letter clarifying this, he stated my skills and demonstrative abilities, showed the highest levels, thus earning me Hanshi in both Karate and Jujutsu, along with Shihan Godan ranking in Juko Ryu Aikijujutsu

allthouhg a streching and kicking demo may be good, how do get a Aiki based ranking from that?

Fishy,Fishy
Todd

 

[M.C. Busman]

Another problem with Durbin's lineage/recognition through Rod Sacharnoski, has Sacharnoski's major lineage problems. Virtually every claim to be recognized by "oriental masters" offers dead ends (or dead mythical masters with no surviving relations or students!). Don Cunningham has done some serious research on this man...worth looking at.


Take Care,

M.C. Busman

 

[M.C. Busman]

Don Roley wrote: "Hmmmm. It seems strange that Hassan would have documentation from Mitose on the Koga ryu, but no mention in it of who Mitose learned it from....[....]Has anyone else seen this documentation? For that matter, can you say with certainty that Hassan was claiming to teach Koga ryu ninjutsu, and not just using the term "ninjutsu" before Durbin came up with his theory?[....]To be blunt, I do not trust just Durbin's, or Hassan's word on this. Especially after hearing from you that there was supposably documentation without an important element like the previous sokes that maintained the tradition. That is just something outside my experience in these matters."

Another question is why lineage to Mitose is so important to some people that they will grab any link, no matter how tenuous.

There is nothing linking James Mitose to Fujita Seiko. Except of course, Mitose's say-so. Lee/Hassan says Mitose mentioned the Koga ninjutsu. Mitose apparently didn't know any more than Andrew Adams and a few other writers offered in English publications.

In other words, it is as reliable as the tale about the temple monks. Rather than consider the simple explanation--that it was a lie, some people would rather concoct situations where Mitose could have said what he did and be telling the truth--no matter how round-about it he was. So we get fringe theories about him being the only one in the temple, etc. The tales about Fujita--or Motobu--are no different in this regard. When could Mitose ever have met and studied with these men? Why no photos or densho?

The simple explanation is that these things did not happen.


Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman

 

[BlackCatBonz]

this is the kind of stuff im talking about.........could you imagine going to a seminar with a few "recognized" masters......doing a few things demonstrating some kind of mastery but not enough to prove it, and then being awarded hachidan or something ridiculous.........without really having any credentials to start with.

shawn

 

[GAB]

Hi Kai;

From what you posted about Durbin's Ki Yang Ju Te...

I read his thoughts, Ki=Spirit, Yang=Positive, Ju=Gentle, Te=Hand. Are pretty clear.

Did he make up these new systems every 7 or so years..is like, an Economic issue?:idunno: Based on business failures in the US?:ultracool

Regards, Gary

 

[Jeff Boler]

Well, I read this book over the weekend. Here are a few thoughts.

Number one: You can read this book in one sitting. It's very small.

Number two: There's no real new information in this book. Most of this information already exists in articles that Durbin has written on the subject; all of which can be read at his website.

Number three: One point that he attempts to make is that Koga Ryu schools tend to fall under Zen based Buddhism, whereas the schools of the Iga province tend to fall under Mikkyo based Buddhism.

Number four: He does mention that Hassan possesses manuals given to him by Mitose that explain his Ninpo skills. However, no proof is given to validate this claim.

Number five: No new historical information. All points lead to Fujita as being the Koga Ryu influence on Mitose. He continues to maintain that Mitose was the nephew of Motobu, and references Robert Trias as the source of this information.

Number six: Mentions his dan ranking in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (although he still calls it Bujinkan Togakure Ryu) on several occassions. I am assuming that this is being used to bolster his claims.

I was turned off by the first sentence in the book; "I'm a ninjutsu expert, but please don't call me a Ninja." I'm not sure that his limited experience and research is enough to validate him as an "expert." It's obvious by his continued use of the name, Togakure Ryu, that he has little to no experience in the Bujinkan arts. And since the historical information concerning this branch of "Koga" ryu is highly questionable, i'm not sure that this title of Expert will stick.

He seems to think that it should....

 

[M.C. Busman]

Jeff Boler wrote: "Number four: He does mention that Hassan possesses manuals given to him by Mitose that explain his Ninpo skills. However, no proof is given to validate this claim.'

"Number five: No new historical information. All points lead to Fujita as being the Koga Ryu influence on Mitose. He continues to maintain that Mitose was the nephew of Motobu, and references Robert Trias as the source of this information."

What manuals are these? Was he able to authenticate them, date them, understand them? Or did he just see some notebooks or volumes with Japanese writing on them and become duely impressed?

Fujita Seiko wrote a series of 4 manuals on arts and pratices he knew including sword, shuriken, rope restraints (hojojutsu), and a comparison of vital points. He penned a few other works, but this 4-volume set is the most tchnical in nature. Maybe Mitose read these, or read Fujita's popular autobiography "The Ninja's Disappearence". All Fujita's books were written in Japanese, although twenty yers or so ago Henry Plee of France translated and added to Fujita's Vital Points book.

On Motobu and Mitose: The issue ended when Motobu's son and heir to his art visited the Hawai'i Karate Museum (Seishin Kai) a few years ago, and said he knew of no relationship netween his father and Mitose as friends or relations of any sort! Even when Motobu was in INS (or whatever the territorial service called it then--I'm working off the top of my head right now w/ out the aid of my library) custody, Mitose's time frame makes it unlikely that he visited Motobu. In addition, the "family crest" Mitose claims goes back no further than him. In Japan, on Okinawa, there is no "Mitose Praying Hands" crest. And according to the Motobu family...there is no Motobu family crest.

There really is no mystery here. It appears Mitose learned about Ninjutsu the same way he learned about kenpo (the possibility that he studied kempo karate under Okinawans in Hawai'i notwithstanding). For Durban and others to give creedence to feel-good myths under the guise of academic research is a true disservice to any person seeking a worthwhile education rooted in fact.

William Durbin reminds me of the dunderheads who go about interviewing UFO Abduction/anal probe claiments, who then insists that Alien abductions/probes really happen because of the convincing testimonies the claiments offer. With no evidence at hand, all they can offer is "I Believe". True Believers of this ilk base their "findings" on emotions, not facts.

lamentable, ah well.


Best to All,

M.C. Busman