William Durbin, Koga Ryu - Kosho Ryu connection?

[The Kai]

Well if you look at the firts book, it really does'nt resemble the physical techniques of kenpo today

the 2nd book really does'nt do much
How long was Chow association with Mitose, who taught most of the classes.
Chow did try different names-however, I suspect he went with the best known name in the end

 

[Doc]

... it seems strange to me that Chow was Mitose's student for so long and if what we call Kenpo stems from him or the chinese art he learned from his father why did he persist in calling it Kenpo as Mitose did, ...

Ken/mpo at the time sir was essentially a generic term used outside of China, (primarily by the Japanese & Okinawan) to denote interpetations of fighting arts of Chinese origin, and the Japanese and their arts were dominant in Hawaii at the time. As an example, in China you might say Chaun Fa/Chuan Shu whereas in Japan you would say "Kempo." The Japanese version of the same was "Jiu-jitsu." The term "jiu-jitsu" was used to denote the difference from Japans many "way" or "do" arts from its warrior fighting arts. This explains the origin of the term "Kempo-Jiu-jitsu." It was akin to saying "Look at the Chinese Version of Japanese fighting." and not a specifc art or style.

With regard to Mr. Parker's rank. The rumor stems from the fact he began teaching as a brown belt as a student at BYU, so that part is correct. Mr. Parker left school to enter the military as a brown belt, continued to study and was awarded his black while stationed in Hawaii. When he completed his tenure in the service, he returned to BYU to finish his education now as a black belt and ultimately promoted his first student there to black as well.

If you acknowledge Ed Parker's contribution to "Kenpo" then his words must also carry considerable weight with regards to where he drew his inspiration and knowledge. According to Mr. Parker, (and from what I witnessed myself), Mitose was horrible. Parker stated, "Mitose was awful and showed me nothing, but Chow was very impressive." Parker acknowledged to the extent he took knowledge from his previous training, it was all Chow before he began studying with Chinese Masters on the mainland. He felt Mitose was a crook and a con artist, (something that history has shown to be correct), and a terrible martial artist and he (Parker) had no respect for him as a person or otherwise. He often stated, "That was Chow's relationship, not mine."

 

[The Kai]

Oh Sure like you were there, or something (kidding)

Written words
Pictoral references
Eye witness

But still no proof

 

[Doc]

Oh Sure like you were there, or something (kidding)

Written words
Pictoral references
Eye witness

But still no proof

Hey, lets get one thing straight. When God said, "Let there be light." who do you think flipped the switch?

 

[Matt]

Matt:
It would be page 1333 on the CD, which is page 1288 of the trial transcript. That page has Terry Lee's statement of when he met Mitose.

Page 1351 on the CD, which is page 1306 of the trial transcript, has Lee's statement about when their relationship ended.

Your wish is my command. Well not really, but here they are.

Okay, they can now be viewed here for page 1288

and here for page 1306.

Matt

 

[Henso]

As concerns a link between Mitose and Fujita, Ninjutsu, Nanban Satto Ryu Kenpo, or anything else, I would have to agree with Don that there is neither evidence of a connection, nor evidence that Mitose himself actaully made this claim. I have done extensive information into the career of Fujita Seiko, and even established a relationship through both research and practice with Fujita's inheritors, via the line of Iwata Manzo, Fujita's uchi-deshi.

In the course of my research I never found a single mention of Mitose in Fujita's works, or the recollections of his acknowledged students. I have personally had the honour of being the uke of, and interviewing Murayama Kunio, Iwata Manzo's uchi-deshi from 1968-1970, and he had no knowledge of the Mitose claims, which is interesting, as the other stories Iwata Manzo told him, match the statements of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and Fujita's obituary, which I have posted on my research site, http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com.

This obituary was passed onto me by Sam Moldezki, a senior student of Murayama Kunio and Iwata Genzo, Iwata Manzo's son. The original of the obituary is in Iwata Genzo's possession, as it was cut out by Iwata Manzo to commemorate his teacher's funeral. Iwata Genzo inherited all of Fujita's living arts(Wada-Ha Koga Ryu is not among them) when his father, Iwata Manzo died in 1993. This fact is attested to by The Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, at which both Iwata's demonstrated Nanban Satto Ryu Kenpo during the 1990's.

Lastly, having had the good fortune to be uke at four separate Nanban Satto Ryu seminars, I can say that the skills shown in Mitose's books look nothing like them. Satto Ryu is a system that contains Kansetsu Waza (locks) Nage Waza (throws) and Atemi Waza (pressure point attacks) and is related to Nanban Ippon Ryu. The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (pg 662) lists the lineage as follows: Hashimoto Ippusai (1)-Hashimoto Ippusai (2)-Fujita Seiko (1919)-Iwata Manzo (1948) The Nihon Kobudo Taikai: All of the above, plus Iwata Genzo (1993)

 

[KenpoPastor]

With regard to Mr. Parker's rank. The rumor stems from the fact he began teaching as a brown belt as a student at BYU, so that part is correct. Mr. Parker left school to enter the military as a brown belt, continued to study and was awarded his black while stationed in Hawaii. When he completed his tenure in the service, he returned to BYU to finish his education now as a black belt and ultimately promoted his first student there to black as well.

Doc, thank you for clarifying the stry.

If you acknowledge Ed Parker's contribution to "Kenpo" then his words must also carry considerable weight with regards to where he drew his inspiration and knowledge. According to Mr. Parker, (and from what I witnessed myself), Mitose was horrible. Parker stated, "Mitose was awful and showed me nothing, but Chow was very impressive." Parker acknowledged to the extent he took knowledge from his previous training, it was all Chow before he began studying with Chinese Masters on the mainland. He felt Mitose was a crook and a con artist, (something that history has shown to be correct), and a terrible martial artist and he (Parker) had no respect for him as a person or otherwise. He often stated, "That was Chow's relationship, not mine."

The story of Mitose's "unimpressive" demonstration to a class of Parker's blackbelts is infamous. I've heard both sides. Those that disagree with your point of view claim that Mitose was demonstrating something that you didn't understand. Doc, since you were there. Could you clear the air? What did you see in detail? What was Mitose attempting to do? Why did you feel it was "horrible"?
I ask these things without any agenda to make or prove my point but from a genuine interest to understand. Thanks.
_don

 

[KenpoPastor]

Well if you look at the firts book, it really does'nt resemble the physical techniques of kenpo today

It does look like what I'm learning. I will say it's introductory and seems to be written for the masses not for Masters. But I can clearly see the foundation of what I'm learning. What do you feel is missing, like I said before I'm not too knowledgable about other branches of Kenpo?

the 2nd book really does'nt do much

Haven't read it yet. Can't find it. I think you told me I could borrow yours if you find it.

How long was Chow association with Mitose,

As student-teacher, Mitose taught from 1942-1946. If Chow was there from the begining that would be about 4 years. Judging from the first book Chow was one of his senior students but was not the top student, that would be Thomas Young (1st guy promoted to shodan), who he gave the school to.

who taught most of the classes.

Mitose. Although Chow was promoted to Shodan by Young, authorized by Mitose. I've heard the claim that Chow was the real teacher (by Kara Ho)and Mitose was the businessman but these claims are not supported by the facts of the time. If you look in the first book. Young is always the Uke for Mitose and Chow was the Uke for young - tradition is the senior rank is always Tori. I do know eventually (after Mitose was gone) Chow was teaching many classes - this is where he got the student base to eventually go off on his own. Yet- even when on his own, he began teaching still under the umbrella of Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu.

Chow did try different names-however, I suspect he went with the best known name in the end

Strange, I would think if he wanted the best known name he would have chosen to be assosciated with the term Karate as Mr. Parker did originally.

_don

 

[The Kai]

It does look like what I'm learning. I will say it's introductory and seems to be written for the masses not for Masters. But I can clearly see the foundation of what I'm learning. What do you feel is missing, like I said before I'm not too knowledgable about other branches of Kenpo?

The first book shows a strong okinwan influence/flavor. Most Kenpo will either be more "Chinese" or flowing.

Haven't read it yet. Can't find it. I think you told me I could borrow yours if you find it.

Still keeping my eye open for it, sorry

As student-teacher, Mitose taught from 1942-1946. If Chow was there from the begining that would be about 4 years. Judging from the first book Chow was one of his senior students but was not the top student, that would be Thomas Young (1st guy promoted to shodan), who he gave the school to.

Sure by that time I think Chow was on his own anyhow

Mitose. Although Chow was promoted to Shodan by Young, authorized by Mitose. I've heard the claim that Chow was the real teacher (by Kara Ho)and Mitose was the businessman but these claims are not supported by the facts of the time. If you look in the first book. Young is always the Uke for Mitose and Chow was the Uke for young - tradition is the senior rank is always Tori. I do know eventually (after Mitose was gone) Chow was teaching many classes - this is where he got the student base to eventually go off on his own. Yet- even when on his own, he began teaching still under the umbrella of Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu.

Since Ed Parker, Sijo Emperado, GM Kuona (sp??), GM Castro, GM Chum all credit Chow, while being a little dismissive of Mitose. Who would you think was the teacher

Strange, I would think if he wanted the best known name he would have chosen to be assosciated with the term Karate as Mr. Parker did originally.

Maybe Chow felt he had as much right, hell maybe he was honoring Mitose who knows

 

[Doc]

Doc, thank you for clarifying the stry.


The story of Mitose's "unimpressive" demonstration to a class of Parker's blackbelts is infamous. I've heard both sides. Those that disagree with your point of view claim that Mitose was demonstrating something that you didn't understand. Doc, since you were there. Could you clear the air? What did you see in detail? What was Mitose attempting to do? Why did you feel it was "horrible"?
I ask these things without any agenda to make or prove my point but from a genuine interest to understand. Thanks.
_don

I had never met Mitose, only heard of how bad he was from Parker in passing. He never made a point to talk about him unless you asked. The short version is Mitose came into the Pasadena school wearng his usual priest collar and a hugh crucifix around his neck on a chain. Plenty of "bling bling." He offered Parker a piece of a "con" he was working on starting a church and Parker declined. Mitose hung around for awhile and offered to show a "secret" technique. Someone did a slow step through punch and Mitose dropped to one knee and did a punch down toward the forward foot. Everybody looked around at each other and Parker schrugged his shoulders and went back into the office. Mitose stood up beaming as if he had shared some "secret" that impressed everyone. All I could think of was, "It's a good thing he didn't follow that punch with a front kick.

You ever watch a guys talk about the arts and you could tell from his body language he was a phoney? What I was told by Parker not withstanding, that was my impression of Mitose. A guy who did just enough to fool people who didn't know any better.

 

[Doc]

I noticed on E-Budo that Dr. William Durbin, Soke of Kiyojute Ryu Kempo has written a book on Koga Ryu Ninjutsu.

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1153

There are some interesting articles on Mr. Durbin's site pertaining to Kempo, and it supposed links to Koga Ryu. You can view Mr. Durbin's site here.

http://www.kiyojuteryu.org

Now without starting a flame war, I would like to hear some response on Mr. Durbin's work, especially when it comes to Mitose and Ninjutsu. Apparently, Durbin has studied the method through Nimr Hassan, Mitose's one and only student during the time of the trial. He claims that Mitose actually learned the art through Seiko Fujita, who was apart of the entourage that followed Choki Motobu around Japan.

Any thoughts?

I'm speechless.

 

[Henso]

I recently published the above work about the career of Fujita Seiko, which contains a chapter about one of Fujita's arts, Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo and the supposed Fujita -Mitose connection. http://www.amazon.com/Fujita-Seiko-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214786076&sr=1-1 During the course of my research, I found no evidence to support a link between Fujita and Mitose, and noted that those who support this claim, had factual errors in their proofs, including the mistake of combining the names of Wada-ha Koga-ryu Ninjutsu and Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo, to arrive at the name of a non-existent art, "Koga-ha Satto-ryu," which makes no sense in Japanese.

My work contains a bibliography of 39 books, which include the works of Fujita and Mitose, amongst others. There are also 143 endnotes that meticulously substantiate my conclusions.

Regards,

Phillip T Hevener

 

[Doc]

I recently published the above work about the career of Fujita Seiko, which contains a chapter about one of Fujita's arts, Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo and the supposed Fujita -Mitose connection. http://www.amazon.com/Fujita-Seiko-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214786076&sr=1-1 During the course of my research, I found no evidence to support a link between Fujita and Mitose, and noted that those who support this claim, had factual errors in their proofs, including the mistake of combining the names of Wada-ha Koga-ryu Ninjutsu and Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo, to arrive at the name of a non-existent art, "Koga-ha Satto-ryu," which makes no sense in Japanese.

My work contains a bibliography of 39 books, which include the works of Fujita and Mitose, amongst others. There are also 143 endnotes that meticulously substantiate my conclusions.

Regards,

Phillip T Hevener

I'm shocked!

 

[John Bishop]

You mean Mitose wasn't really a ninja? :lol: Next thing you know someone is going to claim that Count Dante wasn't really a Spanish Count :lfao:

 

[Matt]

I recently published the above work about the career of Fujita Seiko, which contains a chapter about one of Fujita's arts, Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo and the supposed Fujita -Mitose connection. http://www.amazon.com/Fujita-Seiko-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214786076&sr=1-1 During the course of my research, I found no evidence to support a link between Fujita and Mitose, and noted that those who support this claim, had factual errors in their proofs, including the mistake of combining the names of Wada-ha Koga-ryu Ninjutsu and Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo, to arrive at the name of a non-existent art, "Koga-ha Satto-ryu," which makes no sense in Japanese.

My work contains a bibliography of 39 books, which include the works of Fujita and Mitose, amongst others. There are also 143 endnotes that meticulously substantiate my conclusions.

Regards,

Phillip T Hevener

This reminds me of the study where they found that the hot dogs you buy from street vendors in NYC might not be good for you. Thanks for doing real research. There isn't a grain of salt large enough to take with Mr. Durbin's writings.

 

[KenG]

mr bishop i somehow dont believe that mitose was not a ninja... all signs point to it... he was so secret that no one can even figure out who he trained with if that is not ninja i dont know what is...

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

I recently published the above work about the career of Fujita Seiko, which contains a chapter about one of Fujita's arts, Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo and the supposed Fujita -Mitose connection. http://www.amazon.com/Fujita-Seiko-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214786076&sr=1-1

Mr. Heavener,
Thank you for writing the book mentioned. It is an interesting read and well researched. Highly recommended for those interested in Fujita and in Ninjutsu history in general. Purchased a copy for myself and one for a friend. I am looking forward to your next work.

 

[Danjo]

mr bishop i somehow dont believe that mitose was not a ninja... all signs point to it... he was so secret that no one can even figure out who he trained with if that is not ninja i dont know what is...

I thought it was "Ninjer"? Oh well. Probably just depends on the way the kanji is transliterated.

 

[Henso]

Thank you all for the interest in my post. I would appreciate any Kenpo practitioner posting a review on Amazon, as I don't think I've seen one from that point of departure yet.

Regards,

Phillip T Hevener

 

[arnisador]

Apologies in advance for resurrecting a George W. Bush era thread. A student of Mr. Durbin‘s recently began working at my place of employment. A martial arts colleague who had met this person before I did described the art to me as though it were something like Ryukyu Kempo—in essence, a sort of proto-karate—but the new person, who is very senior in the art, described it as a very broad mix of things, including “aiki“ and “tai chi”, while still giving a short description of it as “Okinawan kempo”. It sounds like rather a smorgasbord of systems. As a former Okinawan karate guy I was very interested, hoping it was from a sane lineage of one of the old Okinawan systems, but now I’m not sure what I’m dealing with here.

I see Mr. Durbin himself is met with “mixed feelings“ here. Are his students generally sharp, or no?