Will WTF sparring change after these Olympics?

[Kwanjang]

Never-the-less, punching does not generate as much power as kicking.


Slingblade, I agree kicking does generate more power than a punch. However, I have seen people knock the breathe out of their opponet with a punch despite the hogu.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Never-the-less, punching does not generate as much power as kicking.


Slingblade, I agree kicking does generate more power than a punch. However, I have seen people knock the breathe out of their opponet with a punch despite the hogu.

One of the blackbelts at our school can punch hard enough that I'm glad I have the hogu! If I had to pick, I'd rather him kick me than punch me.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

I wouldn't look at the prevalence of certain schools in an area and equate that to the current popularity of various styles worldwide. there are a lot of other factors, primarily, who came and opened up schools in an area in the first place.

In my area, the 90% of the TKD schools are WTF affiliated. I know of one ITF school and one ATA school. I'm out near philadelphia....you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an AIKIDo school...why? Because a couple of Ueshiba's stuents moved here to start teaching and then their students went and opened school as well. That doesn;t speak to the popularity or lack thereof of Aikido...just that's what got a foothold.

Peace,
Erik

I agree with your post 100%, but I just have to ask:

why are you swinging dead cats around?

 

[FearlessFreep]

regardless of whether *I* would punch to the face, many people out there in life *will* punch to the face. Which means that I need to learn to defend against those shots. If the rules under which I spar do not have that kind of attack, then it's something I don't have to worry about defending against. This lessens the effectiveness of sparring as a training tool for the wider vision of Tae Kwon Do as a pragmatic art

 

[Kwanjang]

regardless of whether *I* would punch to the face, many people out there in life *will* punch to the face. Which means that I need to learn to defend against those shots. If the rules under which I spar do not have that kind of attack, then it's something I don't have to worry about defending against. This lessens the effectiveness of sparring as a training tool for the wider vision of Tae Kwon Do as a pragmatic art

Good post! I do agree with the face punch. I have in the past,(when I was a teenager) gotten punched (hard) in the face; the lip, in the eye, (got the scars to prove it) and you know what, that magical drug produced by the body (Adrenaline and endorphins) kicked in. I didn't feel it til later. Never been punched on the chin or the nose. Although, I have delivered a few. indeed punches to speciffic areas of the head-including the temple are highly effective. But if you have ever taken a HARD shot to the solar plexus- you instantly feel the pain as the Diaphragm and the intercostal muscles spasm. every time I have had the wind knocked out of me- all I could think of was PLEASE let me start breathing again.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

regardless of whether *I* would punch to the face, many people out there in life *will* punch to the face. Which means that I need to learn to defend against those shots.

I agree.

If the rules under which I spar do not have that kind of attack, then it's something I don't have to worry about defending against. This lessens the effectiveness of sparring as a training tool for the wider vision of Tae Kwon Do as a pragmatic art

Not entirely true; the face and head are legal targets, admittedly only for kicks, but as such, WTF practitioners must learn to defend their head and face, either via blocks and parries, or via distance and evasion. Distance and evasion work equally well, if not moreso, against punches. Most WTF schools do teach punching and defense against it. Can't speak for other WTF schools, but we practice it regularly, and at speed, so if need be, any of us can defend against punches.

The only problem I see in punch defense for a sport -only taekwondoist is that they may not be as 'aware' of the possibility of the punch in an SD application, so from that perspective, I would agree with you.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree with your post 100%, but I just have to ask:

why are you swinging dead cats around?

Don't you know? Special cardio/shoulder strengthening excercise, detailed in '101 uses for a dead cat'

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

regardless of whether *I* would punch to the face, many people out there in life *will* punch to the face. Which means that I need to learn to defend against those shots. If the rules under which I spar do not have that kind of attack, then it's something I don't have to worry about defending against. This lessens the effectiveness of sparring as a training tool for the wider vision of Tae Kwon Do as a pragmatic art

That is the point that I've wanted to make this whole time, but I couldn't find the right words to say it.

I have nothing against the sport side of things. I think that TKD practitioners should have the ability to compete. I just think that the rules of the competition should not limit the strikes that are taught in the art itself...that's what never made sense to me. If TKD didn't have hand strikes at all, then I could see the ruleset as being valid for a purely kicking art.

As cheesy as the movie was, watch Best of the Best. To me, that's how TKD tournements should look, even though the tournement wasn't strictly for TKD.

 

[bluekey88]

I agree with your post 100%, but I just have to ask:

why are you swinging dead cats around?

I'm a dog person...keeps the other cats in line.

 

[bluekey88]

That is the point that I've wanted to make this whole time, but I couldn't find the right words to say it.

I have nothing against the sport side of things. I think that TKD practitioners should have the ability to compete. I just think that the rules of the competition should not limit the strikes that are taught in the art itself...that's what never made sense to me. If TKD didn't have hand strikes at all, then I could see the ruleset as being valid for a purely kicking art.

As cheesy as the movie was, watch Best of the Best. To me, that's how TKD tournements should look, even though the tournement wasn't strictly for TKD.

I happen to agree. However, the question I think those at the top who are setting the rules ask is...what makes TKD with full contact and punching to th ehead different from Muay Thai or Kick boxing? If we add in throws and sweeps, how then is it different from MMA (sans grappling) or San Shou?

One thing that comes with TKD is that it is th eonly martial art that I know of that is not only tied into the prioe of a nation and whose government took a serious interest in developing and promoting the art.

here in America, where I sit, the government doesn't care how I fight (so long as I'm not breaking the laws)...Korea looked at TKD as part of alrger move to reclaim some national pride after years of cultural rape by the Japanese and internal civil strife and war.

Because of that influence, there was much pressure to distinguish and spread TKD...and to remove all so-called Japanese influence. I think from early on, TKD was destined to become an Olympic event, and a commerical venture...as well as a viable martial art. These movements had consequences (not necessarily as bad as we sometimes make them out to be mind you), but there should be no doubt that we are where we at becuase those who created this art and those who had the greatest stake in its development wanted things to go this way.

The only way we can significantly change that is if we become major stakeholders...I'm not sure if that is possible though.

Peace,
Erik

 

[BrandonLucas]

I happen to agree. However, the question I think those at the top who are setting the rules ask is...what makes TKD with full contact and punching to th ehead different from Muay Thai or Kick boxing? If we add in throws and sweeps, how then is it different from MMA (sans grappling) or San Shou?

One thing that comes with TKD is that it is th eonly martial art that I know of that is not only tied into the prioe of a nation and whose government took a serious interest in developing and promoting the art.

here in America, where I sit, the government doesn't care how I fight (so long as I'm not breaking the laws)...Korea looked at TKD as part of alrger move to reclaim some national pride after years of cultural rape by the Japanese and internal civil strife and war.

Because of that influence, there was much pressure to distinguish and spread TKD...and to remove all so-called Japanese influence. I think from early on, TKD was destined to become an Olympic event, and a commerical venture...as well as a viable martial art. These movements had consequences (not necessarily as bad as we sometimes make them out to be mind you), but there should be no doubt that we are where we at becuase those who created this art and those who had the greatest stake in its development wanted things to go this way.

The only way we can significantly change that is if we become major stakeholders...I'm not sure if that is possible though.

Peace,
Erik

You bring up several great points.

As far as what sets TKD apart, really, there aren't that many martial arts that are truely unique as far as appearance in fighting styles. I don't think it would be a bad thing at all if a TKD tournement resembled San Shou or Muay Thai. In all honestly, I don't really think it would be that hard to distinguish TKD from the rest, especially after you add in the sweeps along with the jump kicks.

I think it's honorable that Korea took an interest in trying to spread TKD as a way to seperate itself from the Japenese culture. But, honestly, I don't think that everything is a result of having pride in the country. I think it all stems from money. It may have started as pride, but greed is, in my opinion, a stronger emotion. I think that if money had not come into play, then we wouldn't be in this mess. The only thing that I have to back this up is what a poster said earlier, either in this thread or one of the related Olympic threads, that the board members don't hold any rank in TKD at all.

I agree that TKD should have a governing body, but the governing body should have the proper intentions. Are they going to try to further the martial art by promoting it through international competitions, such as the Olympics? Or are they going to try to achieve maximum profit by rigging how the matches are won, depending on who's who and who can give the biggest payout?

Along with this, I think that the governing body should be REQUIRED to hold at least a 1st dan in TKD. Otherwise, it's a money-making corporation, along the same lines as Wal-Mart.

Wal-Mart started small, much like TKD did, with the notion that everyone should be able to obtain products at fair prices. Over the span of 30 years or so, it has become a corporate machine, and opens a "Super Wal-Mart" in every small town across America as well as overseas, closing down mom-and-pop stores in the process. In a way, I feel like this is what the current board members are doing to TKD.

And I agree that if we were stakeholders, we would have more say. I just don't fully understand how the board members hold the offices that they have now: were they elected or appointed? How can we change members?

 

[bluekey88]

And I agree that if we were stakeholders, we would have more say. I just don't fully understand how the board members hold the offices that they have now: were they elected or appointed? How can we change members?

I guess that's one of my points. In a way, TKD was never about us (non-Koreans), but we've become a part of it. The people in charge at the highest levels got there because 1) they were/are Korean and 2)the new someone. Personally, I've got not problem with that....but then again I'm not looking ot be anything more than a humble practitioner. Things will go the way they go and I will continue to train hard and will do so as long as I get something out of it. When I no longer benefiot from TKD practice...I'll go do something else.

However, for the vast majority of TKDists 9regardles of organizational affiliation) to have some say...nationalism has to be separated from TKD...I just don't see that happening.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I guess that's one of my points. In a way, TKD was never about us (non-Koreans), but we've become a part of it. The people in charge at the highest levels got there because 1) they were/are Korean and 2)the new someone. Personally, I've got not problem with that....but then again I'm not looking ot be anything more than a humble practitioner. Things will go the way they go and I will continue to train hard and will do so as long as I get something out of it. When I no longer benefiot from TKD practice...I'll go do something else.

However, for the vast majority of TKDists 9regardles of organizational affiliation) to have some say...nationalism has to be separated from TKD...I just don't see that happening.

Peace,
Erik

I think that the big key is to be what you are, Erik, a humble practitioner. Taekwondo is what it is, and I, as a forty one year old white American guy, has zero chance of becomming president of the KKW or WTF. And I'm okay with that. There are so many martial arts available that if I should want something different than what taekwondo offers, then I can simply find it, and in my area, relatively easily.

For those who want to be shareholders, there are two possibilities: join a non Korean federation (there are a few), create a non Korean taekwondo federation (that has been done too), or create your own system. Personally, I'll stick with being a humble practitioner; I don't have the energy or the credential to do any of the others.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

Really, the main issue I have with the whole situation is that things that happen on a public stage color the way the public sees the martial art.

 

[bluekey88]

I don't think the public is paying too much attention. Seriously, The only people that care somuich about TKD are us. Thegeneral public knows very littel about TKD, or karate or Kung fu...couldn't tell them apart if they wanted to.

To the general public, we're a bunch of goofs who like to go out and play in our pajamas. Or we're a bunch of MMA wannabees who like to get sweaty and roll around on the floor with each other...or we're Bruce lee wannabees who can kill with a touch.

What abunch of old Korean guys decide the rules for this or that federation are going to be couldn't further rom the minds of Joe Q. Public. Don't seat what they think...because we're just not thaat improtant to be on their radar.

let me illustrate with a sotry (yes, I hear the groans but this is my message ). One of my hobbies is woodworking. I luvs me some power tools and I get excited by the prospect of going to pick ou tlumber for a new project. My wife enjoys making and selling her own jewelry. She's recently gotten into firing her own glass beads. My wife gets happy when i finish up with a project and present it to her as a gift. She'll politely ask "how I did it" at which point I can easily go into great detail about how I hand carved the dovetail joints and bookmatche the grain on the cherry top and finished with a nice tongu oil finich to make the grain pop. her eyes glaze over...she was just asking to be polite. She doesn't care about woodworking.

Similarly, I often come home to my wife and she'll hand me a small pile of glass beads she fired up that day. They look a lot like the ones she fired the day before. I try to find tings I think improved becasue it makes her smile (and her smile makes me a happy man). however, when she starts talking about the various techniques she's practicing or when she asks my opinion on what she caqn do to ge better...I'm at a loss. I don't care about beading and jewelry making.

In the end, we do our thing, it makes us happy...what the other thinks doesn't really bear too much on how or what we do. They don't hav eot be all into it like me (us).

Bottom line, let the public think what they want...chances are they'll get it wrong anyway.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Really, the main issue I have with the whole situation is that things that happen on a public stage color the way the public sees the martial art.

Very true, and that is both good and bad, sometimes both. This year, I'd say more bad than good. The only consolation prize is that the public at large is so ignorant of things martial arts, and that the Taekwondo wasn't televised.

Daniel

 

[slingblade01]

Slingblade, I agree kicking does generate more power than a punch. However, I have seen people knock the breathe out of their opponet with a punch despite the hogu.

Valid commit!

I don't dispute that this is not a problem. WTF is concerned, but it's a tough problem to tackle.

E-hogus will make this more objective.

Here's the simplified look at the problem with e-hogus.

Adjust too low, lots of punchs and light kicks get scored.
Adjust too high, few punchs (but more objective) and few power kicks.

It will take time for Goldilocks to find that porridge that is 'just right'.
But understand, TKD will still be a predominate kicking game.

 

[slingblade01]

One of the blackbelts at our school can punch hard enough that I'm glad I have the hogu! If I had to pick, I'd rather him kick me than punch me.

Daniel

This is rare. I was this way. But due to rules, I had to change.

Soon, a great (not just good) puncher will be rewarded. He must be able to move and also be objective about the problems with a dominate punching game.

Good luck to him.

 

[slingblade01]

Not entirely true; the face and head are legal targets, admittedly only for kicks, but as such, WTF practitioners must learn to defend their head and face, either via blocks and parries, or via distance and evasion. Distance and evasion work equally well, if not moreso, against punches.
Daniel

Yeah, some one on this site has actually seen GOOD olympic TKD and understands it.

For you my friend. :drinkbeer

 

[slingblade01]

I happen to agree. However, the question I think those at the top who are setting the rules ask is...what makes TKD with full contact and punching to th ehead different from Muay Thai or Kick boxing? If we add in throws and sweeps, how then is it different from MMA (sans grappling) or San Shou?

One thing that comes with TKD is that it is th eonly martial art that I know of that is not only tied into the prioe of a nation and whose government took a serious interest in developing and promoting the art.

here in America, where I sit, the government doesn't care how I fight (so long as I'm not breaking the laws)...Korea looked at TKD as part of alrger move to reclaim some national pride after years of cultural rape by the Japanese and internal civil strife and war.

Because of that influence, there was much pressure to distinguish and spread TKD...and to remove all so-called Japanese influence. I think from early on, TKD was destined to become an Olympic event, and a commerical venture...as well as a viable martial art. These movements had consequences (not necessarily as bad as we sometimes make them out to be mind you), but there should be no doubt that we are where we at becuase those who created this art and those who had the greatest stake in its development wanted things to go this way.

The only way we can significantly change that is if we become major stakeholders...I'm not sure if that is possible though.

Peace,
Erik

OK, you win my nomination for post of the day.

You sir, have a good objective understanding of the philisophical problems or the WTF