Will Tracy has a new website.

[Carol]

For all the blustering that Wil Tracy and Al Tracy do about others not following Asian traditions...they seem to be conveniently ignoring two venerated Asian tradtions themselves: the customs of not speaking ill of one's contemporaries, and not speaking ill of the dead.

 

[Flying Crane]

Michael,
while I can see your point to a certain extent, I still feel that some things cannot be just left alone. When someone comes out and writes articles for the general public to read, then they are going to come under scrutiny. When someone says things that are untrue they should be challenged on them. Otherwise their story stands and is repeated and eventually so clouds the true events and history that it makes it nigh unto impossible for future students to get an accurate picture of things.

One of the criteria for evaluating someone's writings etc. is credibility. When one has been shown to believe things like say, that his wife was a re-incarnated goddess from Egypt and that she needed to be worshiped by having over 2000 men have sex with her, I tend to doubt that person's grip on reality. When he makes claims about people that he trained with that are found nowhere else, and that he provides no evidence for aside from his own recollections, that further strains his credibility.

Who else has made claims, for instance, that James Mitose's sister, Fusae Oshita was a Kenpo Great Grandmaster? Where is the evidence for that? Or his other sister too? the only place one finds this stuff is in Will Tracy's articles. Does he provide documentation to prove these assertions? NOPE. But again, when I read that he thought that his wife was a re-incarnated sex goddess, it doesn't reall ysurprise me that he thought that Fusae Oshita was a Kenpo Great Grandmaster Either. It does not, however, make me likely to believe either one.

Danjo,

You've made some good points and I can appreciate that. It makes sense to look at what he has written and posted for the world to see. It also makes sense to dispute what he has written if you have a good reason to believe he is wrong. That is part of what free press and whatnot is all about. You can write what you want, but others are also free to debate you and dispute your writings.

I just didn't want to see this thread turn into a roast, and foster some kind of arguments between the Tracy and Epak camps here on MT, or something. I think good discussion, debate, and even argument are possible without it degenerating into nonsense. Reasonable adults certainly ought to be able to do that.

As far as establishing credibility of a witness, this is done all the time in courtroom trials. When a witness is brought forward to testify, the other side points out every misstep that witness ever took in the past, as a way to cast doubt upon their integrity. This certainly works in the courtroom. When you have a witness testifying against a drug dealer, but that witness himself has a history of being a drug dealer, it makes you question what he might possibly have to gain by testifying against another drug dealer. Perhaps the police have cut an immunity deal with him in exchange for his testimony, and for that immunity, he might be willing to tell any lie the police want him to tell, so they can catch the bigger fish. On the other hand, he might be telling the truth. Just because he also was a drug dealer doesn't automatically mean he testimony against another drug dealer is nothing but lies and deception.

I sort of see it in the same light with Mr. Tracy. He had an incident, a number of years ago, involving his newage religion and what amounted to a prostitution scam with his wife. OK, shame on him. This does cast doubt upon his integrity, perhaps it makes some people wonder about his mental stability, but as far as I know (which isn't very far in this case) his mental stability wasn't ever brought into question in the case. And it had nothing to do with his kenpo. So I personally don't like to use that incident to automatically label him a nutcase and dismiss everything he writes. I'd rather debunk or accept his writing on its own merit, rather than based on his private legal problems. Everyone will have their own opinion on this, I understand. But that's my position.

Incidentally, with regard to your comment about the need to challenge a false story so that that story doesn't become established as the truth, and misleads the next generations. This is exactly what Mr. Tracy claims to be doing. He claims that Mr. Parker has mislead the public, and he is trying to set the record straight. Again, I'm not trying to champion his cause, nor am I suggesting that I believe his story. It's just an interesting perspective to see him using the same arguments that others are using to debunk him.

What I wish would happen is that the few others who are still around who were among Mr. Parker's earliest students, would weigh in on this. Since this is all Will's writing, I wish Al Tracy and Jim Tracy would give their input on this. Maybe they can't for family reasons, just don't want to get into a fight with their brother or something, if they disagree, I don't know. I wish Chuck Sullivan would give his side of the story, regarding the early days as well. Any of the other guys from the 1950s, guys who were there even before people like Doc. I understand Doc was very close to Mr. Parker, but he wasn't there in the earliest days, and he didn't witness firsthand what happened. He only knows by second hand from what Mr. Parker may have told him. And as has been pointed out, Mr. Parker is no longer here to weigh in on the matters.

Anyway, I appreciate the reasonable responses.

 

[Flying Crane]

For all the blustering that Wil Tracy and Al Tracy do about others not following Asian traditions...they seem to be conveniently ignoring two venerated Asian tradtions themselves: the customs of not speaking ill of one's contemporaries, and not speaking ill of the dead.

First of all, I think this is all Will Tracy, and I don't think Al Tracy is involved. I do wish Al would speak up and either endorse or denounce what Will says, but that doesn't seem to be happening. On the other hand, silence can be seen as acceptance. I don't know.

I don't think these are Asian customs, nor customs associated with the martial arts. Many people in the past challenged others to establish their dominance in the area as a martial arts instructor. I think there was little restraint in speaking ill of other instructors in order to further one's own cause. I think our notions of not speaking ill of others is really a more modern idea of courtesy and manners, whether here in the West, or in Asia.

I don't think disputing what a deceased person has said is automatically bad manners. I think it depends on the tone taken and how the arguments are presented. It can certainly be done in a disrespectful way and perhaps Will Tracy crosses this line at times. On the other hand, he also says some very flattering things about Mr. Parker. He paints a glowing picture of Mr. Parker's skill and talent as a martial artist. I think it is OK to dispute what a deceased person has said, so long as it is done in a respectful way.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

My propensity is to agree with Carol on this one; and not just because she's a cute little badarse and a good shot.

In my exposure to the versions of Shinto I grew up around in Hawaii (shugendo, mostly...a combination of shinto and buddhism), the dead don't leave. They are with us still, aiding us, inspiring us, watching us, and even judging our worthinness of their attention/assistance. This made it poor form to speak poorly of them, as you could count on Oba-chama not helping you on that math test by reminding you how to do long division.

I don't want to put my nose up anybody's behind, including Parkers. I don't see the truth of it. If I did, the delivery would still be in poor form.

Having been through it before, and going through it again, I doubt this is the last time we will be exposed to Mr. Tracy's particular take on revisionist history.

Best Regards,

Dave

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, I don't think there is any reason to speak disrespectfully of Mr. Parker, even tho I can accept someone disputing what Mr. Parker might have said or done. Like I said, dispute or disagreement can be done respectfully.

On another note, I have seen people speak less than respectfully about James Mitose, for example, who is also deceased and not here to defend himself. If it is a true Asian tradition to not speak poorly of the deceased, then it seems to me like it is a tradition that gets selectively applied. This is what I am talking about when I say respect has to be a two-way street.

Enough said on my part. If there is some meaningful discussion that can be had about Will Tracy's website, I don't mean to stand in the way of it.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Well, I don't think there is any reason to speak disrespectfully of Mr. Parker, even tho I can accept someone disputing what Mr. Parker might have said or done. Like I said, dispute or disagreement can be done respectfully.

On another note, I have seen people speak less than respectfully about James Mitose, for example, who is also deceased and not here to defend himself. If it is a true Asian tradition to not speak poorly of the deceased, then it seems to me like it is a tradition that gets selectively applied. This is what I am talking about when I say respect has to be a two-way street.

Enough said on my part. If there is some meaningful discussion that can be had about Will Tracy's website, I don't mean to stand in the way of it.

As one who has made disparaging remarks against the passed-on, and will likely again before my own time has come...good point.

D.

 

[Danjo]

Danjo,

You've made some good points and I can appreciate that. It makes sense to look at what he has written and posted for the world to see. It also makes sense to dispute what he has written if you have a good reason to believe he is wrong. That is part of what free press and whatnot is all about. You can write what you want, but others are also free to debate you and dispute your writings.

I just didn't want to see this thread turn into a roast, and foster some kind of arguments between the Tracy and Epak camps here on MT, or something. I think good discussion, debate, and even argument are possible without it degenerating into nonsense. Reasonable adults certainly ought to be able to do that.

As far as establishing credibility of a witness, this is done all the time in courtroom trials. When a witness is brought forward to testify, the other side points out every misstep that witness ever took in the past, as a way to cast doubt upon their integrity. This certainly works in the courtroom. When you have a witness testifying against a drug dealer, but that witness himself has a history of being a drug dealer, it makes you question what he might possibly have to gain by testifying against another drug dealer. Perhaps the police have cut an immunity deal with him in exchange for his testimony, and for that immunity, he might be willing to tell any lie the police want him to tell, so they can catch the bigger fish. On the other hand, he might be telling the truth. Just because he also was a drug dealer doesn't automatically mean he testimony against another drug dealer is nothing but lies and deception.

I sort of see it in the same light with Mr. Tracy. He had an incident, a number of years ago, involving his newage religion and what amounted to a prostitution scam with his wife. OK, shame on him. This does cast doubt upon his integrity, perhaps it makes some people wonder about his mental stability, but as far as I know (which isn't very far in this case) his mental stability wasn't ever brought into question in the case. And it had nothing to do with his kenpo. So I personally don't like to use that incident to automatically label him a nutcase and dismiss everything he writes. I'd rather debunk or accept his writing on its own merit, rather than based on his private legal problems. Everyone will have their own opinion on this, I understand. But that's my position.

Incidentally, with regard to your comment about the need to challenge a false story so that that story doesn't become established as the truth, and misleads the next generations. This is exactly what Mr. Tracy claims to be doing. He claims that Mr. Parker has mislead the public, and he is trying to set the record straight. Again, I'm not trying to champion his cause, nor am I suggesting that I believe his story. It's just an interesting perspective to see him using the same arguments that others are using to debunk him.

What I wish would happen is that the few others who are still around who were among Mr. Parker's earliest students, would weigh in on this. Since this is all Will's writing, I wish Al Tracy and Jim Tracy would give their input on this. Maybe they can't for family reasons, just don't want to get into a fight with their brother or something, if they disagree, I don't know. I wish Chuck Sullivan would give his side of the story, regarding the early days as well. Any of the other guys from the 1950s, guys who were there even before people like Doc. I understand Doc was very close to Mr. Parker, but he wasn't there in the earliest days, and he didn't witness firsthand what happened. He only knows by second hand from what Mr. Parker may have told him. And as has been pointed out, Mr. Parker is no longer here to weigh in on the matters.

Anyway, I appreciate the reasonable responses.

Let's break this down then. Where is the proof in Will Tracy's articles? Where is the notarized shodan he supposedly got from Prof. Chow? Where are the photos or certificates from this mysterious Fusae Oshita? I think he's making this stuff up out of whole cloth. I don't think he was promoted by Prof. Chow, nor do I think Fusae Oshita was a Kenpo teacher.

Your example of a drug adict telling the truth is fine, but it doesn't apply IMHO. The reason is that there may well be truthful drug adicts who are not delusional. However, when someone prostitutes his wife because he thinks she's a goddess, I think that he may well be equally delusional in thinking that Oshita was a Kenpo Great Grandmaster. Will Tracy has made unsubstantiated claims regarding his training with Chow and Fusae Oshita. I for one would like to see some evidence.

As to Al Tracy, he used to have all of these articles on his own webpage, so I think we can figure out where he stands on all of this.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Some snippets from Will Tracy that he forgot to put on his new site.

This article shows his real feelings towards those of us that do American Kenpo. In my opinion, his new site still displays the same attitude.

As far as I know, Mr. Tracy never studied American Kenpo. For if he did, he would notice that many of the techniques and forms are almost the same.

I am the first to admit that there is some really bad American Kenpo out there. But the same can be said of Tracy's Kenpo, as well as every other art out there.

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/kenpovsamericankenpo.htm

 

[Flying Crane]

quote=hongkongfooey

Some snippets from Will Tracy that he forgot to put on his new site.

This article shows his real feelings towards those of us that do American Kenpo. In my opinion, his new site still displays the same attitude.

You are right, he takes a very judgemental stance. It's really kind of weird because in his various articles he says some very flattering things about Mr. Parker's abilities as a martial artist, but then claims everything Mr. Parker did to change the art was wrong and it became "junk" somehow. His message is very mixed and often inconsistent, and at times comes across as hostile. I agree, his tone and presentation can cross the line of good manners and becomes disrespectful. I think whatever his message is, it could have been at least presented more reasonably.

As far as I know, Mr. Tracy never studied American Kenpo. For if he did, he would notice that many of the techniques and forms are almost the same.

I believe you are correct, he never studied what the art became, as American Kenpo. He only learned the earlier art, which he referrs to as Kenpo Karate, or Traditional Kenpo. Yes, many techs are very similar, even the same in some cases, as well as the forms. But things are also different. The AK system has a much reduced tech list, compared to the older system. I think the basic training philosophy may have some differences, tho not having studied AK myself, I can't comment with any specifics. They are not the same, and I believe Mr. Tracy never learned the newer system.

I am the first to admit that there is some really bad American Kenpo out there. But the same can be said of Tracy's Kenpo, as well as every other art out there.

No argument here.

 

[Flying Crane]

quote=Danjo

Let's break this down then. Where is the proof in Will Tracy's articles? Where is the notarized shodan he supposedly got from Prof. Chow? Where are the photos or certificates from this mysterious Fusae Oshita? I think he's making this stuff up out of whole cloth. I don't think he was promoted by Prof. Chow, nor do I think Fusae Oshita was a Kenpo teacher.

I don't know the answer to these things. Was anybody in the habit of having a rank certificate notarized? I've never seen, nor heard of that as a practice, but maybe some schools did/do this. As to the other things, not everything in life gets documented. Sometimes it just comes down to the word of someone who was there and claims to have seen what happened. Maybe he is just making some of these things up. If others who were there can dispute these claims, well then that's an argument. I honestly don't know, and again, I'm not trying to take his side in the argument. He claims he was there and this is what happened. OK, I simply take that as his story. I suspect at least parts of it aint all true, but I am not in a position to prove any of it one way or the other. Other people dispute these things, and again, if another witness claims it isnt true, OK, that's another side of the story that I am willing to simply take as just that: another side of the story.

However, when someone prostitutes his wife because he thinks she's a goddess...

I didn't get the impression from your link that he actually thought of his wife as a goddess. With many religions, the leaders act as a representative of the deity (a priest in a Catholic church represents Christ, but is not thought to BE Christ). I'm not defending his "religion", either. Sounds like a prostitution racket, as I stated earlier, not something to be proud of. If he actually manipulated his wife into it, if she was not a willing participant, that is further cause for shame. But again, this had nothing to do with his kenpo. I personally choose to keep the two items separate. Sure, I have a glimpse into his character from his prostitution issue and to some degree that will always affect how I see what else he may do; but I essentially choose to not discount the one simply because of the other. I may ultimately discount the one, but I will do that on its own merits.

As to Al Tracy, he used to have all of these articles on his own webpage, so I think we can figure out where he stands on all of this.

Well I never saw that, but if that's true it's too bad. They aren't there anymore, not sure what caused the change. Maybe he realized it had gone too far and he didn't want to be promoting that. I obviously don't know, and I'm not in a position to judge Al Tracy over that.

 

[John Bishop]

quote=Danjo

As to Al Tracy, he used to have all of these articles on his own webpage, so I think we can figure out where he stands on all of this.

Well I never saw that, but if that's true it's too bad. They aren't there anymore, not sure what caused the change. Maybe he realized it had gone too far and he didn't want to be promoting that. I obviously don't know, and I'm not in a position to judge Al Tracy over that.

From what I recall from the time, Will Tracy designed and adminstered the first "Tracy's" website. When he started to put up these "recollections" of his, his brother Al separated himself from the website and created his own, which he has now. He has never publically endorsed these writings of Will, and does not have them on his own website.

 

[donald]

In reply to the simularities of Tracy Kenpo, and EPAK. I watched a video that Al Tracy made available a number of yrs. ago. It was of a Mr.Keith Curtz testing for upper dan ranking. They covered every tek, the(kicks etc.) basics, and forms through(I believe) 3rd black. In viewing this you can see alot of simularities, and differences in these systems. The biggest difference I am aware of. Is the application of some of the teks, and katas. For example, the stance changes through out the test were pretty much m.i.a.. Now if this was a result of his particular instructor, or of the system itself. I really don't know. I originally began training at a Tracy studio, and they were very much on top of good application. As pertaining to the katas, etc.. I do have to mention that Mr.Curtz showed incredible stamina, as well as stellar kicking ability. Even after apprx.30 or minutes into the test! Which at that mark had a looonnnggggg way to go. I hope this was helpful?
By GOD's Grace,
(1stJohn1:9)

 

[Flying Crane]

From what I recall from the time, Will Tracy designed and adminstered the first "Tracy's" website. When he started to put up these "recollections" of his, his brother Al separated himself from the website and created his own, which he has now. He has never publically endorsed these writings of Will, and does not have them on his own website.

Thanks for that note, Mr. Bishop. And by the way, your earlier post was interesting as well, wherein you mention interviewing others who were in Hawaii at the time who had never heard of some of the people Will Tracy mentions. I think if Mr. Tracy's message is to be disputed, this is the kind of information that is necessary. It sort of becomes one person's word against others, and if others who were there have given a different story, then at least there is something to dispute it with. That is the kind of information that I can accept as a viable avenue of dispute. Thanks for contributing.

 

[John Bishop]

Moderators Note:

Right now this topic is being discussed on at least 4 forums.
Because this forum represents the most diverse group of kenpo practitioners on the net, we can discuss these types of topics without all the name calling and deleting that is going on at a couple of the other forums.
People at this forum actually want to learn, instead of putting forward a agenda.
This forum allows people to present arguments, sources of research, and opinions. And all that information is allowed to be weighed, and considered for it's worth. In other words, you can believe it or not.
Unlike one of the other forums that deletes anything that dosen't agree with thier agenda. NOBODY'S POSTS HERE ARE DELETED, UNLESS THEY ARE IN DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE MEMBERSHIP AGREEMENT.
Unlike another forum where a senior member's intelligent well thought out argument against any disagreement is, "you can kiss my a--" . Nobody here is called names or insulted because they have a differant point of view, or their argument/findings don't agree with someone else's. I know the majority of our members here have more class then that, and are more cognizant of the example they are setting for everyone reading these posts.

 

[Sigung86]

Not to schmooze with anyone Mr. Bishop (Most everyone knows me better than that), but you are correct. I've done a hit-and-run on the "other" forum, fully expecting to catch Holy Heck.

I've only posted on bit on this thread, mainly because it's easy to see everyone elses viewpoint as well as my own, whether I believe in it or not.

I'm speaking only for myself, but believe that I echo many others in saying that I'm glad to be here.

Other than that, this is a pretty pointless post. :lfao:

 

[Flying Crane]

Other than that, this is a pretty pointless post. :lfao:

I see you must be craving rank, here on Martialtalk, and have sunk to padding your post count in whatever way possible...

 

[Flying Crane]

By the way, I'd be curious to know what other forums this is being discussed on. I don't frequent any other forums except for Kenpotalk, and the thread there has been pretty cordial so far. I'd be curious to see the mayhem going on elsewhere, so if anyone would be so kind as to post a link, I'd be grateful. thx.

 

[hongkongfooey]

It's on the KenpoNet, posting on the subject has stopped.

Martial Arts Planet

Tracy's San Jose

Here

Kenpo Talk

 

[Carol]

By the way, I'd be curious to know what other forums this is being discussed on. I don't frequent any other forums except for Kenpotalk, and the thread there has been pretty cordial so far. I'd be curious to see the mayhem going on elsewhere, so if anyone would be so kind as to post a link, I'd be grateful. thx.

Unfortunately I can't post a link to a discussion thread that's already been yanked.

 

[Danjo]

Well, no one that I have talked to regarding this matter has ever heard of Will Tracy training with Prof. Chow, nor have they heard of his sister having anything to do with Kenpo in any way.

It would be nice if Mr. Tracy would actually provide some evidence that what he is saying is true.

I've been acused of "having an agenda" on other sites. How they think this is beyond me. What possible value would it be to me one way or another? The art I study has nothing to do with Tracy's Kenpo. What I am interested is the truth. I like to get to the bottom of things and not be fed a bunch of lies.

For me it goes back to my blue belt test at the USSD. Master Carter was asking us students about Shaolin Kempo history and he got to the point where he asked, "WHo was Professor Mattera's teacher?" I answered, "Fred Villari." I got a really mean look and was practically barked at, "No! It was Professor Cerio!" Well, I then knew it was BS and I have been on a mission ever since to get accurate answers and call people on unsubstantiated stories or those that are exagerated out of all proportion. When I am met with condecension or hostility, then I get pretty much in attack mode.

When people make far out claims and then offer no proof, I think it's encumbant upon them to provide some sort of substantiation for their claims. I don't see any in Wilbur Tracy's account of history.