Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

Please don't move the goalposts.

It helps a lot, as it refutes both your assertions:

Both assertions taken way out of context.

It's also not moving goal posts. What their form of "randori" is like was pretty much the point of that entire back and forth that you decided to jump into.

For the third time, what source did you read to base your statements on?

Sorry, I missed the last time you asked;

Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū - Wikipedia

Particularly this quote;
The training methodology, as with most koryu systems, is kata based or a form of pre-arranged fighting. Students learn the specific subtleties, or the more hidden meaning of the form, through the continuous repetitions of the katas. There are over 130 kata of this classical jujutsu, unarmed combat teaching from seated positions, standing positions, weapons defence, and also includes special healing methods and resuscitation.
 
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OK, but your post wasn't very clear then. How many times do you need to be attacked with a knife before it counts as "having experience"?

You would need to be able to demonstrate that you can do it.

So if I attack you with a knife. You should be able to stop me.
 
You would need to be able to demonstrate that you can do it.

So if I attack you with a knife. You should be able to stop me.
indy-sword-gif.23224
 
the nature of commonly accepted mean one you haven't just made

you know, an authoritative body, the Olympics association, a court of law that sort of thing

nb the Olympic association said darts was not a sport and the English courts said that poker was not
Finding an accepted definition is pretty easy. You could just look for it in a dictionary or a dictionary website. Here's one: "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment." (Google result from Oxford Languages)
 
Finding an accepted definition is pretty easy. You could just look for it in a dictionary or a dictionary website. Here's one: "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment." (Google result from Oxford Languages)
well since then ive quoted both the oxford and Websters that are far less prescriptive, once you actually open them and read it, something it seems youve failed to do here
 
well since then ive quoted both the oxford and Websters that are far less prescriptive, once you actually open them and read it, something it seems youve failed to do here
That was the entirety of the primary definition. The others were for different usages that don't apply. But apparently you know what was on the web page I read, even though you didn't read it.
 
Finding an accepted definition is pretty easy. You could just look for it in a dictionary or a dictionary website. Here's one: "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment." (Google result from Oxford Languages)

My friend, there's really no point in wasting your time explaining the definition of something as elementary as sport to someone who is purposely being obtuse.
 
To be honest, it's fairly common, at least in Western culture. If you look at old Boxing manuals from the early 20th C. and earlier, they're quite often self-described "art of defense" manuals, using boxing. And then the manual goes on to describe boxing within the context of the rule set of the day. While some of them do include some instruction on foul and illegal techniques "wink wink nudge nudge," the gist of it was to rules-legal boxing.

It also wasn't particularly rare to have one manual with sections on Boxing, Wrestling, and Fencing.


Physical Culture and Self Defense
by lklawson

The Science of Self Defense
by lklawson

Fencing, Boxing, and Wrestling, 1897
by lklawson

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Exept we find more boxing or BJJ used in the context of self defence than most other martial arts.

 
There is definitely valid martial material (both concepts and techniques) encoded in that highly stylized and formalized presentation. The real world application would obviously look significantly different.

The presenters demonstrated actual skill in the presentation of that encoded material. I don't know whether they can actually fight - that depends on what sort of training they have done besides that stylized, formalized demonstration format. However if you gave me a practitioner who could demonstrate that level of movement skill but didn't know how to fight then I could teach them how to fight effectively much more quickly than I could a typical untrained beginner. (Conversely if an instructor in that school was willing to share their knowledge with me, I bet I could pull out something of value which I could use to improve my game. I've found that lots of schools have lost essential elements of fighting training but still retain some valuable gems which can be applied effectively by someone who does understand how to fight.)
Agreed. I think that - used well - those stylized drills force the practitioner to focus on specific principles. I feel like they get too much attention in some schools (and maybe entire styles), but they're just a different kind of drill. Like any drill, there can be positives and negatives. Like any drill, if they're the only way you approach a technique, your skills will be shallow, in my opinion. And like many other drills, the movements sometimes translate to situations that are barely similar, if you understand the principles.
 
Agreed. I think that - used well - those stylized drills force the practitioner to focus on specific principles. I feel like they get too much attention in some schools (and maybe entire styles), but they're just a different kind of drill. Like any drill, there can be positives and negatives. Like any drill, if they're the only way you approach a technique, your skills will be shallow, in my opinion. And like many other drills, the movements sometimes translate to situations that are barely similar, if you understand the principles.

The issue is without seeing the randori it is hard to tell.

It is like watching John wick to decide if keanu reeves can fight.
 
Agreed. I think that - used well - those stylized drills force the practitioner to focus on specific principles. I feel like they get too much attention in some schools (and maybe entire styles), but they're just a different kind of drill. Like any drill, there can be positives and negatives. Like any drill, if they're the only way you approach a technique, your skills will be shallow, in my opinion. And like many other drills, the movements sometimes translate to situations that are barely similar, if you understand the principles.
I've said many times that I believe Judo's Nage No Kata is designed to teach one or two important principles about each throw. It doesn't really matter if it looks stylized or not as long as you learn the lesson intended to be imparted. But now Nage No Kata is a competition kata, which I believe emphasizes the stylized feel and competitors too interested in the competition element could lose sight of the lesson they're supposed to learn.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
The issue is without seeing the randori it is hard to tell.

It is like watching John wick to decide if keanu reeves can fight.
Agreed. I try to reserve my opinion on someone's overall fighting ability, rather than judge it from a video of some drill. They may be great at the drill, but bad at application of those skills to a dynamic situation with a resisting opponent. Or they may be awful at that drill, but really good at other fighting skills (like someone who is a beginner in a new system, but has meaningful background somewhere else).
 
The issue is without seeing the randori it is hard to tell.

It is like watching John wick to decide if keanu reeves can fight.

Exactly, which is why the randori piece is important, and I wish I could get a definitive answer without all the snark.
 
I've said many times that I believe Judo's Nage No Kata is designed to teach one or two important principles about each throw. It doesn't really matter if it looks stylized or not as long as you learn the lesson intended to be imparted. But now Nage No Kata is a competition kata, which I believe emphasizes the stylized feel and competitors too interested in the competition element could lose sight of the lesson they're supposed to learn.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I have the same belief about the Classical Forms (short 2-man kata) found in NGA. They often are viewed as the entire foundation of the system, but I think they're just meant to build (as you said) a few principles in each technique. The rest should develop in other drills, randori, etc.
 
That was the entirety of the primary definition. The others were for different usages that don't apply. But apparently you know what was on the web page I read, even though you didn't read it.
here is the entire defintion from websters,

sport
verb
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\ ˈspȯrt \
sported; sporting; sports
Definition of sport
(Entry 1 of 3)

intransitive verb

1a: to amuse oneself : FROLIClambs sporting in the meadow
b: to engage in a sport
2a: to mock or ridicule something
b: to speak or act in jest : TRIFLE
3[sport entry 2] : to deviate or vary abruptly from type (as by bud variation) : MUTATE
transitive verb

1: to display or wear usually ostentatiously : BOASTsporting expensive new shoes
2[sport entry 2] : to put forth as a sport or bud variation
sport

noun
Definition of sport (Entry 2 of 3)

1a: a source of diversion : RECREATION
b: sexual play
c(1): physical activity engaged in for pleasure
(2): a particular activity (such as an athletic game) so engaged in
2a: PLEASANTRY, JEST
b: often mean-spirited jesting : MOCKERY, DERISION
3a: something tossed or driven about in or as if in play
b: LAUGHINGSTOCK
4a: SPORTSMAN
b: a person considered with respect to living up to the ideals of sportsmanshipa good sporta poor sport
c: a companionable person
5: an individual exhibiting a sudden deviation from type beyond the normal limits of individual variation usually as a result of mutation especially of somatic tissue
sport

adjective
variants: or sports

the primary defintion is

1a: a source of diversion : RECREATION

and ignoring the one about sex
c(1): physical activity engaged in for pleasure
 
here is the entire defintion from websters,

sport
verb
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To save this word, you'll need to log in.

Log In

\ ˈspȯrt \
sported; sporting; sports
Definition of sport
(Entry 1 of 3)

intransitive verb

1a: to amuse oneself : FROLIClambs sporting in the meadow
b: to engage in a sport
2a: to mock or ridicule something
b: to speak or act in jest : TRIFLE
3[sport entry 2] : to deviate or vary abruptly from type (as by bud variation) : MUTATE
transitive verb

1: to display or wear usually ostentatiously : BOASTsporting expensive new shoes
2[sport entry 2] : to put forth as a sport or bud variation
sport

noun
Definition of sport (Entry 2 of 3)

1a: a source of diversion : RECREATION
b: sexual play
c(1): physical activity engaged in for pleasure
(2): a particular activity (such as an athletic game) so engaged in
2a: PLEASANTRY, JEST
b: often mean-spirited jesting : MOCKERY, DERISION
3a: something tossed or driven about in or as if in play
b: LAUGHINGSTOCK
4a: SPORTSMAN
b: a person considered with respect to living up to the ideals of sportsmanshipa good sporta poor sport
c: a companionable person
5: an individual exhibiting a sudden deviation from type beyond the normal limits of individual variation usually as a result of mutation especially of somatic tissue
sport

adjective
variants: or sports

the primary defintion is

1a: a source of diversion : RECREATION

and ignoring the one about sex
c(1): physical activity engaged in for pleasure
So, which definition fits your need?

Or were you trying to understand how it was being used?
 
Exactly, which is why the randori piece is important, and I wish I could get a definitive answer without all the snark.

It is intentionally concealed to maintain an image.

The idea is if you can't see it you can't make a judgement on it so therefore it is good.
 
It is intentionally concealed to maintain an image.

The idea is if you can't see it you can't make a judgement on it so therefore it is good.

That makes sense considering that I can find no video of randori for any of these arts, but I can find plenty of video for everything else they do.
 
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