Why Wouldn't A Good Athlete Be Good In The Martial Arts

[Badhabits]

I've certainly found practicing in water to be beneficial in various ways. Stance work in particular. You really have to pay attention to staying rooted to the bottom for one, especially when stepping to change stances. The feeling of pulling yourself down, a lot like making yourself heavier when on land. The resistance around your whole body can also allow you to feel things about the body you may not notice otherwise.

 

[Badhabits]

It's also a blast play fighting with my granddaughter in the water. At 6 years old now, she can cross the pool underwater and throw a good five or six punches to my stomach while still underwater. It's also allowed her to learn some of the mechanics for a shoulder throw. Shes learned to shoulder throw me then hold me down and throw knees after the throw. Right proud of her.

 

[PhotonGuy]

A few boxers have used underwater training as a supplementary workout, but it’s not a mainstream method. Was curious if you had heard of this.

"The density of water makes any motion you make underwater more challenging since you constantly have to fight against the resistance of the water. For example, it’s impossible to run across the sides of a pool as fast as you would on land when most of your body is underwater. Regardless of how hard you try, your movements will use up more energy while being significantly slower than they would be on land.

This makes underwater training an essential part of training any striking-based martial art. It allows you to practice all of your techniques while dealing with constant resistance. As a result, your muscle endurance, speed, and explosive power increase. "


your thoughts are on it, if you had.
If you felt there might be any correlation to what CMC talked about—practicing Taiji like swimming on land?

I used to practice techniques underwater but I stopped doing that when I heard it can be detrimental in regards to making you faster and can actually make you slower. When you throw techniques underwater you will of course be doing them slower for the reasons you mentioned, the water resistance will slow you down. As such you will get used to moving slower so it will make you slower. When you get used to doing techniques slower you will naturally do them slower. For that same reason training with ankle weights and wrist weights can slow you down. So that's why I stopped doing it.

 

[windwalker099]

I used to practice techniques underwater but I stopped doing that when I heard it can be detrimental in regards to making you faster and can actually make you slower

Cheng Man-Ching (CMC) famously said that practicing Taiji should feel like "swimming on land," emphasizing relaxation, fluidity, and the natural flow of movement.

Mentioned it because some compared training in water—i.e., "swimming"—as analogous to the "swimming on land" idea he described.

CMC’s concept of "swimming on land" isn’t about resistance training in water but about moving with effortless flow, balance, and sensitivity.

The rationale for each is different.

 

[HighKick]

I used to practice techniques underwater but I stopped doing that when I heard it can be detrimental in regards to making you faster and can actually make you slower. When you throw techniques underwater you will of course be doing them slower for the reasons you mentioned, the water resistance will slow you down. As such you will get used to moving slower so it will make you slower. When you get used to doing techniques slower you will naturally do them slower. For that same reason training with ankle weights and wrist weights can slow you down. So that's why I stopped doing it.

Yes, your motion will be slower because of Resistance, just like when lifting weights. The huge advantage to water training is it surrounds your body, forcing you to balance while moving. It will add strength and coordination, just like weight training but is harder to isolate like weight training. It has Huge benefits to people who compete.
Add targeted water jets and it can be grueling. Ask me how I know.

 

[windwalker099]

The huge advantage to water training is it surrounds your body, forcing you to balance while moving.

How does it force you to balance when the body is being supported by it?

Balance is a response to gravity, ground contact, and weight distribution. When water supports the body, it reduces the need to engage with these forces directly. Rather than training balance, it diminishes the body's ability to sense and adapt to natural weight shifts and ground reaction forces.

It's similar to how people develop "sea legs" after spending time on a boat. Their bodies adapt to the constant movement of the water, but when they return to solid ground, they may feel unstable. Water training shifts the body's reference for balance, but it does not develop the same stability needed for movement on land.

 

[Sammy Naur]

I used to practice techniques underwater but I stopped doing that when I heard it can be detrimental in regards to making you faster and can actually make you slower. When you throw techniques underwater you will of course be doing them slower for the reasons you mentioned, the water resistance will slow you down. As such you will get used to moving slower so it will make you slower. When you get used to doing techniques slower you will naturally do them slower. For that same reason training with ankle weights and wrist weights can slow you down. So that's why I stopped doing it.

There is no truth to that, especially with boxing or any real striking combat art.

Resistance training doesn't make you slower. This is the "weight training makes you slower" myth again.

Combat striking trains with resistance all the time in dozens of ways. It makes you stronger and faster.

There are a lot of reasons ankle weights aren't recommended (quad/hamstring imbalances), slowing you down is not one of them.

No, if anything swimming improves your muscle endurance and conditioning in ways far superior to doing similar motions in the air.

 

[Badhabits]

How does it force you to balance when the body is being supported by it?

Balance is a response to gravity, ground contact, and weight distribution. When water supports the body, it reduces the need to engage with these forces directly. Rather than training balance, it diminishes the body's ability to sense and adapt to natural weight shifts and ground reaction forces.

It's similar to how people develop "sea legs" after spending time on a boat. Their bodies adapt to the constant movement of the water, but when they return to solid ground, they may feel unstable. Water training shifts the body's reference for balance, but it does not develop the same stability needed for movement on land.

Balance may not be the right term. I'd say it makes you work harder to keep your base under you. It's comparable to having someone pushing and pulling you from different directions while in an environment where it's much harder to keep your base/connection to ground due to the added buoyancy.

 

[Badhabits]

You'd think things like stance work would be easier due to being "lighter on your feet" but the opposite is true. It requires more concentration and muscular contractions than normal.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Understanding different ways of training 'intellectually' is a dead-end street. We can theorize endlessly, but we need to experience different training methods in order to truly understand.

Traditional martial artists tend to stick with the ancient ways of training and fighting techniques of their founder's style. Innovative martial artists evolve with the times and adapt their techniques and training to suit the needs of their sport/combat.

The boxing style of John L. Sullivan was fitting to the time and place in which he fought. The same applies to Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Willie Pep, Sugar Ray Robinson and so on - training methods evolve as the fighters become more experienced.

A good athlete can usually adapt to another sport or physical activity with relative ease, but only if there is a true desire to do. It also pays to have the insight to use the most effective training methods of the day. Most martial artists I've met are specialists in their particular style or system and are not generally people who would be classed as athletes, or even athletic.

 

[windwalker099]

Balance may not be the right term. I'd say it makes you work harder to keep your base under you. It's comparable to having someone pushing and pulling you from different directions while in an environment where it's much harder to keep your base/connection to ground due to the added buoyancy.

The claim that water training makes you work harder to "keep your base under you" is misleading. In reality, water reduces the need for a stable base by supporting the body.

On land, maintaining balance requires constant micro-adjustments in response to gravity and ground reaction forces. In water, buoyancy reduces these weight-bearing demands, alters proprioception, and changes how force is applied. While water training presents unique movement challenges, it does not improve real-world balance, which depends on gravity, ground contact, and stable proprioceptive feedback.

 

[Sammy Naur]

On land, maintaining balance requires constant micro-adjustments in response to gravity and ground reaction forces. In water, buoyancy reduces these weight-bearing demands, alters proprioception, and changes how force is applied. While water training presents unique movement challenges, it does not improve real-world balance, which depends on gravity, ground contact, and stable proprioceptive feedback.

Also not true at all, in fact water training is a key component of occupational, physical, and age related strength and balance therapy and injury recovery.

Gravity, ground contact, and proprioceptive feedback all apply in water, in the context we are discussing.

How can swimming improve balance? | Stannah

Swimming is one of the best forms of exercise and can even relieve and often prevent some age-related changes in the body like loss of balance. Learn more!

blog.stannah.com.au

A study,

https://academic.oup.com/aje/article-abstract/180/8/830/2739186?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Why Swimming May Be the Best Exercise for Older Adults – All Seniors Care

Swimming can be a fun and safe way for seniors to get active without putting undue strain on joints. Pools in retirement residences have many benefits!

allseniorscare.com

 

[windwalker099]

A good athlete can usually adapt to another sport or physical activity with relative ease, but only if there is a true desire to do. It also pays to have the insight to use the most effective training methods of the day. Most martial artists I've met are specialists in their particular style or system and are not generally people who would be classed as athletes, or even athletic.

Might be because what they practice is no longer "martial" in application, focuses on tradition and the preservation of historical methods.

The reasons for practicing these arts outside their original cultural contexts vary. Some seek authenticity, others focus on personal development, and some treat them as living history.

Sports are purpose-driven and outcome-oriented, with clear objectives like competition or measurable performance.

Practicing historical methods, : What is the purpose?
How are they measured, What is the expected outcome of such practice?

 

[Badhabits]

The claim that water training makes you work harder to "keep your base under you" is misleading. In reality, water reduces the need for a stable base by supporting the body.

On land, maintaining balance requires constant micro-adjustments in response to gravity and ground reaction forces. In water, buoyancy reduces these weight-bearing demands, alters proprioception, and changes how force is applied. While water training presents unique movement challenges, it does not improve real-world balance, which depends on gravity, ground contact, and stable proprioceptive feedback.

Well yeah it reduces the need for a stable base. What happens is this. It's easier to get your base back under you when your body moves off if it. Because of the buoyancy. But its much harder to keep your body from moving off of your base. Because of the buoyancy. I'm not arguing that water training improves balance. But it does force you to put more focus and work into staying rooted to the bottom and keep your body over its base. Because of the buoyancy again. 6 months out of the year here its hot and we swim. My daily at home training consists of getting in and out of our pool during workouts. Going straight from stance work in the pool to stance work on land and vice versa. You might be surprised at how demanding stance work in water is. Never mind doing it in the ocean. Which we also have a view of from my yard.

 

[HighKick]

Well yeah it reduces the need for a stable base. What happens is this. It's easier to get your base back under you when your body moves off if it. Because of the buoyancy. But its much harder to keep your body from moving off of your base. Because of the buoyancy. I'm not arguing that water training improves balance. But it does force you to put more focus and work into staying rooted to the bottom and keep your body over its base. Because of the buoyancy again. 6 months out of the year here its hot and we swim. My daily at home training consists of getting in and out of our pool during workouts. Going straight from stance work in the pool to stance work on land and vice versa. You might be surprised at how demanding stance work in water is. Never mind doing it in the ocean. Which we also have a view of from my yard.

I very much disagree. Being in the water completely changes your relationship to gravity. Everything is (of course) fluid and moving. This greatly makes you attentive to your position and base.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Something else worth pointing out is that moving through water in general is one of the best full body exercises, partially because it utilizes every single muscle involved. You can even strengthen your fingers and grip with water.

Again, if you want to see a dance of balance watch a bunch of people trying to wade in marginally rough surf. You'll see people who can't avoid being knocked over onto their butts to very stable, balanced people who seem like they are Godzilla entering Tokyo Bay, and they often got that balance by doing that a lot.

It's a matter of muscle control against dynamic resistance, no different than any other kind of weight training. It's people that don't do those sorts of things, who can't maintain control in the face of resistance, who go splat.

 

[Badhabits]

I very much disagree. Being in the water completely changes your relationship to gravity. Everything is (of course) fluid and moving. This greatly makes you attentive to your position and base.

What specifically are you disagreeing with?

 

[windwalker099]

But it does force you to put more focus and work into staying rooted to the bottom and keep your body over its base. Because of the buoyancy again.

would not agree

It's because of the buoyancy that the dynamics of the practice are changed.
Balancing in water uses buoyancy, not leg-ground interaction.

 

[Badhabits]

would not agree

It's because of the buoyancy that the dynamics of the practice are changed.
Balancing in water uses buoyancy, not leg-ground interaction.

Maybe we're talking about different things here. Here's an example of what I'm getting at.
In belly deep water, in a back stance (karate style). A wave comes at you. Because of the added buoyancy, it's very easy for your feet to come off the bottom and the wave moves you. I'm trying to use muscular contractions in the body to keep my position, resist the wave and not let my feet become uprooted. The feeling is like gripping the bottom with your feet and pulling yourself downwards to maintain contact, without the benefit of gravity to help stay rooted.
A lot like "making yourself heavy" when someone tries to lift you off the ground

 

[Sammy Naur]

Balancing in water uses buoyancy, not leg-ground interaction.

Again that's only if you're not actually standing on a pool floor or beach sand.

If you are, it's a combination. Staying on your feet in ocean waves definitely uses ground rooting. So does wading or walking in water.

As a fisherman I can tell you keeping your footing in fast moving water definitely requires strong balance. It takes surprisingly very little depth and water current to sweep someone with poor balance off their feet.