Why some people still don't want to wear mask?

[Steve]

With the rapid spread across the US, there is no telling how many strains we have by now.
And we simply don't know what the virus does.

Well, we know what it has done, and we know that it is very contagious. We know it can be a lot more dangerous to people than the cold or the flu. We know that masks help prevent the spread, along with simple things like washing one's hands. We know that countries that were cautious are doing a lot better than countries that are not. Look at Sweden, which tried the herd immunity route, or the USA, which we can see in this thread is no surprise when propaganda so easily makes its way into the discussion.

What hasn't been determined yet, as far as I've seen, is how quickly this virus mutates, which will determine how effective a vaccine might be. It looks like some promising progress has been made in this area, but I think it's a little too early to tell. We haven't determined the long term effects on folks who survive the virus yet, though there is some indication that permanent lung damage and other things like that could result.

 

[Steve]

I will make an attempt at a different tact on my opinion. I do quite a lot of research and am obsessed with information from multiple, varying, and non-associated sources in an attempt to find the subtleties and inconsistencies. Very, very little of my data mining is from political sources. This would come in the form of political advisors, such as Fauci. This is the main reason I post very few links. For any one link someone post, there are 10 out there that will counter the information so what is the point? Youtube is great, but a hard source of information? No.

I do read the post here and I am truly sorry for loss of life anyone has encountered this year regardless of cause. I apologize if I sounded insensitive to some.

I am a very data driven person. It is what I have done as a profession for over 30 years. I am forced to understand there is a difference between statistics and relevant data. The former can have virtually any result, the latter is accurate, usable information. More often than not adding or changing one variable changes everything in an accurate data model. Tracked data that does not create change is superfluous and just mucks things up, thus is factored out.

In regards to the topic at hand there are a Lot of statistics out there but not a ton of discernable data. Hard numbers that stand on their own are very hard to find. Numbers that have been coalesced with other data points are living large. And they are being used and manipulated in all sorts of manner. I am sorry if some of you do not understand this. The most relevant comparison I can think of is how data on cold and Flu are completely rolled up into the C-19 numbers.

There has been a higher than average number of deaths in my family and extended family this year. Some had C-19, some even at the time of death, but none died with C-19 as the cause of death. I have found that quite curious based on the explanations of COVID 19 by many. We have had friends die from the virus, one was a 2 year old so yes, it is here and it is real.

I fully believe C-19 is a killer and has and will kill again.
I fully believe the same for the countless number of Flu strains that have killed this year, which we supposedly have vaccines for. Many of which also complicated pre-existing conditions.
I fully believe C-19 has been epidemic and/or pandemic in level or quantity on it's own.
I fully believe the professional societies do not yet understand the virus and it's possible constituent strains and are working hard to learn more about it.
I fully believe the media is doing what the media does and using Any source, made up or otherwise, to make the daily news, causing a great spread of misinformation.
I fully believe this is our greatest problem from the social information standpoint.
I fully believe there is a heavy amount of political motive involved in higher level decisions regarding the virus in the U.S. causing polarized opinions and division.

I watched a local news feed this morning that stated the U.S. has stockpiled hundreds of thousands of vials of a vaccine that is being held up for whatever reasons. I suspect politics is a data point in understanding the reasons for the wait, along with many other data points.
If the vaccine was available tomorrow I would not take it. I am not the kind of person who risks one unknown for another. I will let others be the guinea pig. Of course this logic is easy when you are not staring death in the face. Akin to taking a cancer drug.

I appreciate and enjoy the forum. The last thing I intend to do is push anyone away from it.
That said, it is no secret Steve and I do not get along and I do not see that changing. He consistently plants seeds in his posts to get a reaction and then runs with comments people make about them, in all sorts of twisted manner. Pure printed manipulation. A shock jock. I see people doing this on every forum I frequent regardless of topic and I am quick to call anyone out I see doing this.
Why do I care? Because I am a very morally and ethically bound person. Simple as that.

While the picture says 99% of it, I'll just point out that you shared absolutely no actual information in your post above. You talk a lot ABOUT data. You talk a lot ABOUT statistics. But you share none. Hmmm...

 

[granfire]

Well, we know what it has done, and we know that it is very contagious. We know it can be a lot more dangerous to people than the cold or the flu. We know that masks help prevent the spread, along with simple things like washing one's hands. We know that countries that were cautious are doing a lot better than countries that are not. Look at Sweden, which tried the herd immunity route, or the USA, which we can see in this thread is no surprise when propaganda so easily makes its way into the discussion.

What hasn't been determined yet, as far as I've seen, is how quickly this virus mutates, which will determine how effective a vaccine might be. It looks like some promising progress has been made in this area, but I think it's a little too early to tell. We haven't determined the long term effects on folks who survive the virus yet, though there is some indication that permanent lung damage and other things like that could result.

We know what it can do.
We don't know why, or to whom.
We think we have an idea, then something else pops up.
And naturally, there is the overlooked fact that the damage the virus does might very well be permanent.

There are estimates on the rate of mutation. Not very fast, but that was also assuming people would do their utmost to limit the spread. Not throw parties and defy distancing orders and in essence accelerate the rate of infection.
there were numbers floating around between 2 and 8 a few months ago.

And since the numbers aren't correct in any case, due to various reasons (almost all political) we are fighting an uphill battle

 

[dvcochran]

While the picture says 99% of it, I'll just point out that you shared absolutely no actual information in your post above. You talk a lot ABOUT data. You talk a lot ABOUT statistics. But you share none. Hmmm...

Of course. That is your job, and anyone else seeking truth instead of wanting to be spoon fed possible misinformation.

 

[Steve]

Of course. That is your job, and anyone else seeking truth instead of wanting to be spoon fed possible misinformation.

Folks are trying to educate you, but you refuse to learn. Not just me, though you can't seem to see that. Several folks are asking you questions you won't answer, and sharing information with you that you won't, or perhaps, can't acknowledge.

And I'm still waiting for those links to the articles or videos on CNN and CNBC that you said you saw, when you were trying to normalize the propaganda that you shared without any critical thought or judgement.

Heck, at this point, I'd settle for a credible, external source for any of your assertions. As I said before, this is about more than just simple disagreement at this point. You're assurances that you are "deeply moral and ethical" ring false, given that you cannot seem to tell the truth, and you won't support any of your hairbrained assertions with independently verifiable evidence. Literally every insult you sling at me is reflected in your own behavior. You are not credible at this point and, in fact, appear to be entirely unreasonable.

Edit: Except for the "insult" you posted above. That one, I'll gladly accept. While not my job, I am very glad we agree that I share actual information and actual statistics to support my posts. That's a good thing. That you think otherwise is alarming.

 

[dvcochran]

Folks are trying to educate you, but you refuse to learn. Not just me, though you can't seem to see that. Several folks are asking you questions you won't answer, and sharing information with you that you won't, or perhaps, can't acknowledge.

View attachment 23099

And I'm still waiting for those links to the articles or videos on CNN and CNBC that you said you saw, when you were trying to normalize the propaganda that you shared without any critical thought or judgement.

Heck, at this point, I'd settle for a credible, external source for any of your assertions. As I said before, this is about more than just simple disagreement at this point. You're assurances that you are "deeply moral and ethical" ring false, given that you cannot seem to tell the truth, and you won't support any of your hairbrained assertions with independently verifiable evidence. Literally every insult you sling at me is reflected in your own behavior. You are not credible at this point and, in fact, appear to be entirely unreasonable.

Edit: Except for the "insult" you posted above. That one, I'll gladly accept. While not my job, I am very glad we agree that I share actual information and actual statistics to support my posts. That's a good thing. That you think otherwise is alarming.

Um yeah, meme's are such credible information. But I do love many of MLK's quotes.
Like I said again and again, why can't you go to the sites you reference yourself and find the information? It is not at all difficult. I am not going to do your work for you. That is simply part of the problem.

Go ahead with your attempts to discredit me. I have attacked you personally so it is justified. It does not change my opinion of you however.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course. That is your job, and anyone else seeking truth instead of wanting to be spoon fed possible misinformation.

If I'm looking for information that disagrees with what I think I know, why wouldn't I seek it from someone who says they have exactly that? Why refuse to help someone gather data? I'm truly confused.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Um yeah, meme's are such credible information. But I do love many of MLK's quotes.
Like I said again and again, why can't you go to the sites you reference yourself and find the information? It is not at all difficult. I am not going to do your work for you. That is simply part of the problem.

Go ahead with your attempts to discredit me. I have attacked you personally so it is justified. It does not change my opinion of you however.

If he goes there and can't find it, do you prefer he assume it doesn't exist, or do you want to point him to it, so he can include that information in his opinion?

 

[Steve]

Um yeah, meme's are such credible information. But I do love many of MLK's quotes.
Like I said again and again, why can't you go to the sites you reference yourself and find the information? It is not at all difficult. I am not going to do your work for you. That is simply part of the problem.

Go ahead with your attempts to discredit me. I have attacked you personally so it is justified. It does not change my opinion of you however.

I'm presenting information. Other folks are, too. You're not. No one's doing anything "to" you.

No one is making you lie about your sources. No one is making you take increasingly severe positions that are clearly in conflict with the scientific community. No one is forcing you to do that. You're choosing to do that to yourself. Look, man. I get it. Your self image is pretty obvious, but you're acting like a victim here. You clearly consider yourself to be a man of integrity, but you're not acting with integrity now. You consider yourself to be a rational person who considers information, but you are clearly getting your information in some kind of a direct line from known propaganda outlets and fringe conspiracy theorists. When asked for sources, you get defensive and lash out.

I said once before that I think you could benefit from talking to a pro about some stuff. I still think that's true. You've got some huge blind spots, and a trained therapist can help you identify those and be a better person. There is no stigma (or should be no stigma) to this.

 

[Steve]

I watched a local news feed this morning that stated the U.S. has stockpiled hundreds of thousands of vials of a vaccine that is being held up for whatever reasons.

Case in point. You "watched a local news feed this morning". Which one? Can you share a link to this story you saw? I found a link to my local news channel without any problem at all.

And for what it's worth, when I searched for anything about stockpiling vaccines, I got some results from unknown websites that I didn't bother to check, and Fox Business (aka, Fox News). US stockpiling 3 different types of coronavirus vaccines through 'Operation Warp Speed'

Interestingly, the Fox News link included strikingly similar language you use above: "The U.S. has already manufactured and stockpiled "hundreds of thousands of doses" of coronavirus vaccines in the hopes that one will be effective in combating the virus, a senior administration official said Tuesday." (the embedded quotation marks were in the article, indicating that they are a quote, and so are not necessarily verified independently.)

 

[Buka]

- I have just received a letter from my 24 hours fitness center that they files bankruptcy.

24 Hour Fitness files for bankruptcy amid pandemic, 3 Austin-area gyms to close

- This is the 1st years (in the past 12 years) that I spend summer in the Texas 105 degree heat instead of running on the California beach.

- This is the 1st time that I started to teach solo form in the past 30 years.

I have such wonderful memories of Pismo Beach. Always loved that place. Even the name.

 

[Bruce7]

I am old and my neighbors are old.
The guy that lives in front of me is a very nice man in his 80's with a wife thats not able to get out of the house, he told me covid is a HOAX.
Then he told me the death numbers was fake news.
I didn't know what to do. I didn't want to argue with him. It would not do any good , Fox news is on every time I have been at his house.
I am afraid for him and his wife.

 

[Bruce7]

What's wrong in US?

Sanjay Gupta: "There will be people who became infected" after attending Trump's RNC speech

This is an important subject, thank you for your post

 

[JowGaWolf]

- I have just received a letter from my 24 hours fitness center that they files bankruptcy.

24 Hour Fitness files for bankruptcy amid pandemic, 3 Austin-area gyms to close

- This is the 1st years (in the past 12 years) that I spend summer in the Texas 105 degree heat instead of running on the California beach.

- This is the 1st time that I started to teach solo form in the past 30 years.

Good news is that you know the Solo form. Now we know what forms are good for lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

This would come in the form of political advisors, such as Fauci.

I don't even understand this Fauci is not a political advisor. Fauci has never made statements about what is the best political approach. This is Fauci's career "Dr. Fauci was appointed director of NIAID in 1984. He oversees an extensive portfolio of basic and applied research to prevent, diagnose, and treat established infectious diseases such as HIV/AIDS, respiratory infections, diarrheal diseases, tuberculosis and malaria as well as emerging diseases such as Ebola and Zika. NIAID also supports research on transplantation and immune-related illnesses, including autoimmune disorders, asthma and allergies." The only reason we see him in white house press conferences is because as go good leader and basically a good manager of things. You bring experts in to give their knowledge on things you don't know about.

We know what it can do.
We don't know why, or to whom.
We think we have an idea, then something else pops up.
And naturally, there is the overlooked fact that the damage the virus does might very well be permanent.

There are estimates on the rate of mutation. Not very fast, but that was also assuming people would do their utmost to limit the spread. Not throw parties and defy distancing orders and in essence accelerate the rate of infection.
there were numbers floating around between 2 and 8 a few months ago.

And since the numbers aren't correct in any case, due to various reasons (almost all political) we are fighting an uphill battle

There were only 2 things I needed to know. 1 it kills people, and 2 they don't know anything about it. So for me that just screams.. Do my best not to get it.

Sort of like how Timex (the watch company) used to use radioactive material in their watches. The knew what it does, but didn't know much about until after people started dying.
Mae Keane, One Of The Last 'Radium Girls,' Dies At 107

Science has a way of learning things the hard way.. So while they explore, I'm going to do my best not to get it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Very, very little of my data mining is from political sources. This would come in the form of political advisors, such as Fauci. This is the main reason I post very few links. For any one link someone post, there are 10 out there that will counter the information so what is the point?

Facui isn't a political advisor.

When you claim that CNN, MSNBC, Dr.Fauci, or CDC say something, You don't need compare multiple sources of information.. You only need to show where on CNN, MSNBC, or CDC. they make the statement that you claim they did. If you say that Dr. Faucci made a ridiculous statement about something, then you only need to show where he's quoted in a reliable source or show a video of him actually saying it. Either one would work because news networks who were present could confirm the quotes.

Why would go to multiple sources to compare information? He either said it or he didn't. If he said it, then you should be able to find multiple evidence of him actually making statements. If he didn't say it, then you won't find such evidence. Which is why when you don't don't post a source, people assume that you don't know what you are talking about.

I will make an attempt at a different tact on my opinion. I do quite a lot of research and am obsessed with information from multiple, varying, and non-associated sources in an attempt to find the subtleties and inconsistencies.

If you can quote the CDC, CNN, Dr.Fauci, or MSNBC and show the source of where they made the statements then there's no need to look at varying information from non-associated sources. When you see me actually use Kung Fu in a video then why would you go to some non-associated source in attempt to find inconsistencies. I can guarantee that if I make the same claims about my martial arts skills in an MMA forum (without videos), that youll see alot of inconsistencies of what people think vs what people have seen me do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am old and my neighbors are old.
The guy that lives in front of me is a very nice man in his 80's with a wife thats not able to get out of the house, he told me covid is a HOAX.
Then he told me the death numbers was fake news.
I didn't know what to do. I didn't want to argue with him. It would not do any good , Fox news is on every time I have been at his house.
I am afraid for him and his wife.

There's not much you can do to change his mind. People like that who don't use critical thinking skills to think things through aren't going to change their minds. Trying to stay in line the the Rules here. Just highlighting how people know of the danger and still put out stuff like this. When I heard Hermain Cain was sick, I was hoping that he would make it through in hopes that going through it, would make him speak about the reality of COVID-19, but unfortuanltely he didn't survive it. Things didn't go his way nor my way. I think he would have put away the games and the crazy talk if he would have survived.

 

[Steve]

There's not much you can do to change his mind. People like that who don't use critical thinking skills to think things through aren't going to change their minds. Trying to stay in line the the Rules here. Just highlighting how people know of the danger and still put out stuff like this. When I heard Hermain Cain was sick, I was hoping that he would make it through in hopes that going through it, would make him speak about the reality of COVID-19, but unfortuanltely he didn't survive it. Things didn't go his way nor my way. I think he would have put away the games and the crazy talk if he would have survived.

But to make it worse, someone is posting hyper partisan tweets from his account posthumously, including this one, pushing the very misinformation we've been discussing. This is in incredibly poor taste:



I should mention that this tweet has since been deleted, but there are plenty of others, since his account has been resurrected (no pun intended).

 

[JowGaWolf]

But to make it worse, someone is posting hyper partisan tweets from his account posthumously, including this one, pushing the very misinformation we've been discussing. This is in incredibly poor taste:

View attachment 23101

I should mention that this tweet has since been deleted, but there are plenty of others, since his account has been resurrected (no pun intended).

They keep trying to blame deaths on underlying causes. My guess "underlying causes" also include "Catching a cold," sore throat, bronchitis, the flu and other illnesses that people usually get in the winter. If this is accurate then look at the age groups that are most likely affected. Colds also cause respiratory issue. If my thought's about this are correct then we could see a large number of younger people die from COVID-19. Unfortunately no one has asked the question "What are my chances of beating COVID-19 if I have a cold"

 

[JowGaWolf]

Can You Get Two Colds at Once? (source: Can You Get Two Colds at Once?)

From the link above.
"In 2009, scientists were able to sequence all of the genetic material from the 99 known strains of rhinovirus. They found that coinfection with multiple strains is a common occurrence. They also found that coinfection provided viruses an opportunity to mutate into new strains.

Diagnostic tests for many of the viruses that cause colds have now become commercially available. In 2013, doctors used these tests to study 225 children in day care. Almost half were infected with more than one virus when they got sick. Children infected with multiple viruses did not appear to be sicker than those infected with a single virus, but they stayed sick longer. These findings were recently confirmed by a systematic review of all published studies."