Why long NOW?

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Kirk
Ah, but has the training to be a Chef been drastically altered in
the last 10 - 30 years?

The $$$$ thing holds water well. Mr Parker, Huk and a third
gentlemen (no disrespect, I can't remember the name) worked
together to establish a commercial program. It had to have it's
$$$ appeal.

Mr Labounty is one man. By saying that he could punch through
your spine is only relevant if: All that trained with him during that
time could do the same thing, and none of those that trained
later could do this.

My point was that you were only trained to eat initially, then Mr. Parker got into the Chef angle perhaps out of curiosity... but this is getting too complex a thread and I think I made my points.

I'm going to take time off at 499 posts since my idea of going back and forth with Gou for 15 posts didn't work out.

Gou makes good points. Mr. Parker needed something to sell for a Franchise. Black Belt did an article on Mr. Parker's Kenpo vs Bruce Lee's JKD years ago but I didn't see it.

Mr. Parker couldn't really say, teach these 25 techniques... have your guys fight alot and work on these freestyle moves and concepts and bring me in once every quarter to check them out and fine tune them. I guess he could have, but he developed a more stand-alone approach I think. Something you could buy and work on and call him or bring him in 1x/yr to help you personally if you got stuck.

Don't know.

My original point was that they trained to fight, to not get hit and to hit back originally but now we train to understand everything that is going on.

As others have pointed out this may not be good. Mr. Scott said in Star Trek III "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." I think Kenpo may have some of that problem now. Mr. Conatser I think referred to "bookworms" being really good at explaining and maybe even teaching but less good at raining destruction down upon your enemies when they flinch.

Mr. Speakman's seminar was good for this. You could see him unleashing death when he was demonstrating.

That reminds me of a good quote Mr. White said at camp last year. He said that when you were doing a demo with Mr. Parker, you were afraid. The floor would shake, Mr. Parkers hair would shake, I think he said you would be moving, hearing what was going on, catch a glimpse of Mr. Parker and know that "death was close." It was very funny how he said it. I wish I remembered exactly.
:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Another point to keep in mind...belts exist only for -us- to keep score. Problem is, comparing any 2 blackbelts is like comparing any 2 sports teams. Might as well take this years Superbowl champs and pit them in a soccer match against this years World Series winner.

2 guys start the same art, at the same time, and reach black belt the same month...2 different schools. So, who is better? Shouldn't they be the same? In a perfect world, yes.

Its like saying 'I have a college degree'. So? Did you graduate top of your class at Harvard, or come in last at the local city college? Either way, you have a degree.

I know a Kenpo instructor who holds his students to a very firm program. It is not uncommon for his students to take over 10 years to reach blackbelt...and these are the 'serious, trains every day' students. You can bet they know the techniques backwards and forwards, and can apply them real-world, not just do the 'dancing'. Compare this with the local 'mcdojo' that gets you to black in 3 years, guarenteed.

hell, i'm pretty good with photoshop, and have a wholesale account with a few suppliers...I can have a black belt and fancy cert by friday. What does it really mean? Really?

We complain it takes too long to get to a meaningless benchmark. We then complain that you can't learn proper self defence in a 3 hour 1 day seminar. Which is it? It used to take 10-15 years to reach master status in kung fu....too long to train a soldier...so they streamlined it and got wing chun, to master in 3-5 years. EPAK is an encyclopedic art... its got variants up the yinyang. Add a punch and twist, suddenly ya have a whole new technique, 2 belts higher up. How long does it take to memorize and internalize all that stuff?

An encyclopedia has a million ideas, all defined.
A dictionary had 120,000 words, all defined.
the english alphabet has 26 letters.

Do the math.

If I want to master an art, expecially one that has the depth of forms, and the number of techniques, and the scope of concepts such as EPAK, I really hope they really test me, and don't just pass me along and give me a belt to make me feel all warm n fuzzy. The art evolved as EP figured more stuff out, and fleshed things out, and added in the profitability aspect.

You want to learn to fight in a month, go take Muay Thai. 12 techniques. You want to learn how your body moves in harmony with itself, go spend 10-20 years working Tai Chi. Something like Kenpo is an educated, thinkingmans art. K'veth the Sheepherder (who cant read or write) is not gonna be able to tackle it.

Kenpos now a complex art. In the 'old days', it wasn't, and the folks who came in usually had experience. Now, its got more depth, and has a lot of 'newbies' in it, who have no base to build on. They have to build their base first.

You have a Kenpo BB? Good. Go get a BB in a different art...try Arnis or Wing Chun. WC should be easy if ya mastered Long 4. I think if you have a firm foundation, you'll pick the other systems up faster than someone who is just starting out.

:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Kirk
.. They must have been VERY understanding wives back then, to let their husbands either not earn a living, or to be fine with their husbands spending an additional 10 hours outside of the home, in addition to the 8 or 9 they spent at work.

I doubt that they would be understanding. These guys were probably single and took their training seriously. I know I would be divorced if I did that.

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Another point to keep in mind...belts exist only for -us- to keep score. Problem is, comparing any 2 blackbelts is like comparing any 2 sports teams. Might as well take this years Superbowl champs and pit them in a soccer match against this years World Series winner.

2 guys start the same art, at the same time, and reach black belt the same month...2 different schools. So, who is better? Shouldn't they be the same? In a perfect world, yes.

Its like saying 'I have a college degree'. So? Did you graduate top of your class at Harvard, or come in last at the local city college? Either way, you have a degree.

I know a Kenpo instructor who holds his students to a very firm program. It is not uncommon for his students to take over 10 years to reach blackbelt...and these are the 'serious, trains every day' students. You can bet they know the techniques backwards and forwards, and can apply them real-world, not just do the 'dancing'. Compare this with the local 'mcdojo' that gets you to black in 3 years, guarenteed.

hell, i'm pretty good with photoshop, and have a wholesale account with a few suppliers...I can have a black belt and fancy cert by friday. What does it really mean? Really?

We complain it takes too long to get to a meaningless benchmark. We then complain that you can't learn proper self defence in a 3 hour 1 day seminar. Which is it? It used to take 10-15 years to reach master status in kung fu....too long to train a soldier...so they streamlined it and got wing chun, to master in 3-5 years. EPAK is an encyclopedic art... its got variants up the yinyang. Add a punch and twist, suddenly ya have a whole new technique, 2 belts higher up. How long does it take to memorize and internalize all that stuff?

An encyclopedia has a million ideas, all defined.
A dictionary had 120,000 words, all defined.
the english alphabet has 26 letters.

Do the math.

If I want to master an art, expecially one that has the depth of forms, and the number of techniques, and the scope of concepts such as EPAK, I really hope they really test me, and don't just pass me along and give me a belt to make me feel all warm n fuzzy. The art evolved as EP figured more stuff out, and fleshed things out, and added in the profitability aspect.

You want to learn to fight in a month, go take Muay Thai. 12 techniques. You want to learn how your body moves in harmony with itself, go spend 10-20 years working Tai Chi. Something like Kenpo is an educated, thinkingmans art. K'veth the Sheepherder (who cant read or write) is not gonna be able to tackle it.

Kenpos now a complex art. In the 'old days', it wasn't, and the folks who came in usually had experience. Now, its got more depth, and has a lot of 'newbies' in it, who have no base to build on. They have to build their base first.

You have a Kenpo BB? Good. Go get a BB in a different art...try Arnis or Wing Chun. WC should be easy if ya mastered Long 4. I think if you have a firm foundation, you'll pick the other systems up faster than someone who is just starting out.

:asian:

Pretty well stated... everything but the last paragraph that is . Really if a person wanted to augment their Kenpo someone within the system probabley specializes within the aspect most desired. The trick would be finding that person, but with the infromation age upon us- where there is a will there is a way.

:asian:

 

[Sigung86]

Rainman ... You are scaring me... One of us is dumbing down or smarting up! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I agree with you.

Dan

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by brianhunter
well we have been known to agree from time to time

I don't agree with people down on your level!

 

[brianhunter]

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by brianhunter
Im trying to be adult about this.....Im going to ask you now in public. STOP! youve gotten your reaction, Ive put up with your mouth. Stop it, please.

Too bad it is a bit too late for you to show you are an adult!

 

[cdhall]

I didn't post earlier, but I'll post now.
What are you guys talking about?
Jeff, what is up? Don't burn up the rest of this thread posting nonsense to Brian. Do it in private or something

Where are the Mods?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Guys,
If theres a 'disagreement', please take it to PM, or Email. I'm in agreement with Mr Hall here in going 'huh?".

Thanks.

 

[jeffkyle]

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
I don't agree with people down on your level!

Just what level is that? ....... Mr. Kyle?

:asian:

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Kirk
After doing some reading on kenpo seniors, and even martial
arts seniors, I've seen that quite a few got their black belts
REALLY quick. Most under 2 years (most that I've read). Mr
Ibrao's web site claims that ED PARKER awarded him with
a black belt in 9 months. How long did it take Mr Parker
to earn his?

Now we're in a system where 4 years would be considered fast?
What changed?

Not just kenpo either. I heard a rumor that Chuck Norris
earned his black belt in under two years, IN KOREA!

Has martial arts been dumbed down?

I would say that the time to black belt changed as the material required to attain a black belt changed. As Mr. Parker developed his system it became more sophisitcated. More sophisticiated material takes longer to absorb. I don't think it has much to do with money, but that's my opinion.

Hasta,
Billy Lear

 

[jfarnsworth]

I have to agree with you Mr. Lear.

 

[Kirk]

I'll definitely go with that Billy! Let me ask your thoughts,
however on people commenting on the superior abilities implied
of those with less sophisication?

Would you say that more sophisticated does not equal better?
Maybe the abilities of those who came before us have been
exagerated?

Not trying to start anything at all bro, trust me. Just trying to
discuss, and get some answers for myself.

 

[cdhall]

Kirk,

If I spend 5 years working on 154 techniques and you spend the same 5 years working on a 3 techniques (Joe Lewis says he only really used 3 techniques in the ring but I don't remember what they were-backknuckle, side kick and a reverse punch I think) then your 3 techniques should be better my 154.

Wouldn't you think?

Joe Lewis certainly threw backknuckles and sidekicks at will. He beat up a lot of guys.

We really only need to "dodge/slip/move" and "hit back."

The rest is all just a mental exercise. Sparring tends to prove this out in my experience.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by cdhall
Kirk,

If I spend 5 years working on 154 techniques and you spend the same 5 years working on a 3 techniques (Joe Lewis says he only really used 3 techniques in the ring but I don't remember what they were-backknuckle, side kick and a reverse punch I think) then your 3 techniques should be better my 154.

Wouldn't you think?

Joe Lewis certainly threw backknuckles and sidekicks at will. He beat up a lot of guys.

We really only need to "dodge/slip/move" and "hit back."

The rest is all just a mental exercise. Sparring tends to prove this out in my experience.

So are you saying that less is better?

 

[cdhall]

Not exactly.
It depends on the practicioner/artist.

Less can be better.
Less may even have a good shot at being better.

An airplane is less complex than a space rocket, but a space rocket will smoke an airplane everytime especially if you are going into space....

Less can be better. It is not by default. I have smoked black belts in other systems that might know less than me but they just didn't seem to me to even know the 12 or 14 techniques they were required to know.

So, not necessarily. It depends on the person.

If I have 15 legos and you have 115 who can build a "better" tower? What is "better?" What kind of "tower?"

You see where I'm going. The 115 guy has more options and can do stuff the 15 guy can't but if all you want to do is build something tall that won't fall over who is better?

 

[Sigung86]

Hi Doug, Hi Kirk,

Seems to me that it boils down to what you want. If you want to simply defend yourself then, in actuality, a limited vocabulary of response is probably the better way to go. If, however, you not only wish to defend yourself, but have a "life" study, then you obviously have the need for more material and more sophistication.

I do tend to be middle of the road on your previous thoughts. While SGM Parker did raise the level of sophistication, he also had an eye toward making money... Look at how his "empire" was built and maintained. Not saying he wasn't altruistic and true to the vision of his Kenpo, but when you are altruistic and true to a vision, you still gotta eat. :lol:

Dan

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Sigung86
...but when you are altruistic and true to a vision, you still gotta eat. :lol:

Hi Dan et al.,

I think Mr. Parker Jr. even told me/us (in a seminar once) that if Mr. Parker only had 6 students he could train the best fighters in the world, but that would not pay the mortgage.

If anyone (like Mr. C) has an actual quote and source I'd appreciate it if you could post it and straighten me out. Thanks.