Originally posted by Big Pat
...Also,the large number of techniques did not exsist in Mr. Parker's early Kenpo. Mr. Sullivan has stated that there were only 25 or so base techniques in the beginning. It is also important to note that many of Mr. Parker's first students already had martial arts experience, making their journey somewhat quicker to Black belt.
Right. In "the old days" I think Mr. Swan got his Black Belt from Mr. LaBounty and the last form in the System was Long 3. I know Mr. Sullivan said there were only about 30 techniques in the system...
And, some of those guys were there several hours a day and apparently they were Fighting all the time. So if they were there 10 hours a day but only training 2hrs... they still work out more than I do. I'm lucky to do anything at all part of 3 days a week, much less 5 or 7.
And we don't fight now like they did then either. Ask Mr. Tom Kelly about "the safety equipment known as tape." I think the learning curve is shorter when someone is trying to flatten you with his bare knuckles. Especially if you are being graded on your fighting proficiency.
Mr. Duffy has said that there is a lot more material in our system now than for example when he got his Black in 72 or so, that the general Kenpo student is more "book smart" than students back then, but that back then generally speaking everyone was tougher.
What is the name of the Chuck Norris bio? I'd like to read it. Also, it was not uncommon for a serviceman in the Korean War to get a Black Belt in Korea before they came back to the US, no matter how long that was going to be... from what I've heard.
I think Joe Lewis' belt also supports the fighting prowess theory. I mean you'd think that 7 months wouldn't be enough time to perfect Long 4, but then Mr. Lewis went out and proceeded to beat up every other black belt tournament fighter and kickboxer in the world, so he was primarily focused on fighting and sparring.
And I think if you go to his website now, he teaches a fighting system. I don't think he advertises it as much other than a fighting system. I'm going to look into this myself because I need more fighting practice. Our art is supposed to be comprised of 3 equal divisions:
1. Basics
2. Self-Defense
3. Fighting
I think most of the Old Timers came up while the Self Defense and Basics (forms and sets...) were being developed and that this also explains a lot. If it takes 4 yrs to Black now, then you should be able to learn 1/3 the material in 1/3 the time which would be about 1.5yrs. And if you were really fighting hard every day, could you do it sooner? I think Mr. Tom Kelly said it took him 18 months to get to Black and (like Big Pat mentioned) Mr. Kelly was also Already a Black belt from somewhere else (from Mr. LaBounty?).
I think that if you can fight a good fighter, then the Basics are obviously being employed well and you won't have a problem with Self-Defense. I suspect that if we go to Joe Lewis and try to explain/teach/defend Five Swords for example and go into the extension... he would likely prefer to slip the punch and knock you out and he would have a good argument for knowing Self-Defense as well as anyone.
This is a complex question. I think that the non-fighting parts of Kenpo have opened up the system/art to be more useful and practical to a non-professional athlete.
While Joe Lewis doesn't need Five Swords to defend a punch, I can take almost anyone off the street and get them to be effective with Five Swords MUCH faster than I can train them to be an effective competition fighter or street brawler. If you look at the guys in the Journey most of them were pretty hard core athletes who could mix it up and a lot of them are in better shape than today's average student. I think.
Some of this is speculation but it represents a lot of my observations and theories so I thought I'd throw it out there to see how it goes over. :asian:
I see Gou is back with us. I forgot how much longer all the threads were when he was with us. Did anyone win a bet on him coming back?
