Why don’t you see aikido used in judo?

[theletch1]

ueshibasensei said that in real life sitiuations, atemi or striking should make up 70% of the aikido'.

before ueshibasensei passed away, many people tell that he tried in vain to rename aikido by changing the chinese character for harmonizing or meeting (ai) into love(ai)- but the student were so powerful at the time that they either resisted or themselves could not overcome as the ball was already rolling



j

Nice video clip. When done properly the flow of aikido does, indeed, look very much like a dance. I think, and this is just my rusty old brain trying to function, that the first statement and the second statement are from two different stages in O'sensei's development of aikido. As I understand it aikido became much softer and more flowing as Ueshiba aged and became more spiritual. I often wonder if the major rift in hombu styles of aikido originated because some of the original students were more interested in what aikido was at the beginning of it's evolution and others were more interested in what it eventually became. I'm sure one of the hombu stylist here can set me straight. I study Nihon Goshin and our lineage traces back differently. Our style isn't nearly as gentle as many of the hombu styles, almost closer to -jutsu than -do. I do love the flow of any style of aikido, though, and find myself fixated on the simple redirection of energy of late in all of it's facets.

 

[kaizasosei]

as far as aikido goes, i can see that although they are practicing very gently, they have a great knowledge of henka and the general feel of aiki...
it's impossible to tell how they would do in a situation of freesparring, but their moves truly are very fluid. i wonder if the title and music was intentional from the beginning or whether the guy in black truly does have such a style of resembeling dancing...- i liked it. i had the feeling he had a particularily good feel for the moves.

i think aiki or aikijutsu or do should be like they say of chinese ma. 'soft like cotton and hard as steel'
aiki in itself i a force of internal martialarts. the moves themselves are external being jujutsu and various unarmed combat techniques. but the feeling is something universal.
even kids can get an idea of the real essence of aiki.

i believe that all human communication and all movements of all things in the universe are a type of aiki.

j

 

[Robot Jesus]

it's impossible to tell how they would do in a situation of freesparring, but their moves truly are very fluid. i wonder if the title and music was intentional from the beginning or whether the guy in black truly does have such a style of resembeling dancing...- i liked it. i had the feeling he had a particularily good feel for the moves. ...


...j

All I saw was a cutting criticism of what I assume the worst of aikido to be. Movements once alive choreographed far beyond the point of usefulness and into absurdity.

EDIT: “ expletive deleted”

I realized how to explain my perception of aikido, and hopefully you can help correct it.

What I’ve seen of aikido it appears to be a Shinto flavored version of professional wrestling with the emphasis on moves appearing effortless instead of brutally powerful.

And as always if anyone can recommend good aikido in Calgary Alberta Canada, I will look into it at first convenience

 

[theletch1]

You have 8 posts on this site and all of them are in this one thread. You haven't posted in judo yet, the style you yourself study by your profile. Did you join this forum simply to bash aikido? You have said yourself that you base your opinion of the art on youtube videos. How in the world can you have a valid opinion on an art which relies on feeling energy and redirecting it if you've never felt it? The video link that you've just dinged says volumes more to an aikido-ka than it would to someone who's never done the art. To someone who has never studied kenpo a kenpo demo would look just like someone flailing their arms around another person til they fell down. To someone who has studied it you can identify the different techniques and understand the theory behind what is happening. If you're so disgusted with aikido simply ignore it.

I have no intention of attempting to correct your perception of aikido. There have been numerous responses to your original and follow up posts here and none of them have budged you one inch in the direction of approaching the art as having worth. I have better things to do with my time.

 

[Robot Jesus]

My primary goal is to correct my view of aikido through discourse. This requires the expression of my view. I’m not trying to prove my point, I’m trying to help you disprove it through critical analysis.

 

[theletch1]

My primary goal is to correct my view of aikido through discourse. This requires the expression of my view. I’m not trying to prove my point, I’m trying to help you disprove it through critical analysis.

I have no reason to disprove it. I've chosen aikido as my art because it works for me. You've chosen judo as yours because it works for you. What you believe about another art does not change it's effectiveness for those that choose to study it one iota. If you are truly on an honest search for knowledge go train in the art. Aikido is very much about feeling the flow of energy and being able to redirect it. No amount of critical analysis will allow you to feel what aikido is.

 

[morph4me]

My primary goal is to correct my view of aikido through discourse. This requires the expression of my view. I’m not trying to prove my point, I’m trying to help you disprove it through critical analysis.

Your perceptions or preconceptions are yours to correct, which might be easier if you had an open mind and/or actual experience. I'm with theletch1 on this. Trying to explain aikido through critical analysis is like trying to explain a color to a man who's been blind from birth or a woman to explain to a man what it feels like to give birth, you just don't get it until you've experienced it.

 

[Tez3]

This is a strange thread! I've been trying to follow the argument but am well lost!
I tried to watch the Aiki v MMA video but it didn't play. I don't think you can have an MMA v anything really as there are (obviously) many martial arts in MMA. You could have MMA fighter against whatever, that would be more accurate.

I don't do Aikido but my instructor has done quite a lot and he'll teach us various techniques in self defence classes. The people he teaches are mostly MMA people so aren't 'conditioned' in any way to play along with the moves, we will resist strongly and throw good punches. When our instructor demos these Aiki moves on us the air turns blue! Yes it hurts and it works! I can't speak for the styles, the classes or the instructors etc but the moves, damn me they work!

 

[Yari]

My primary goal is to correct my view of aikido through discourse. This requires the expression of my view. I’m not trying to prove my point, I’m trying to help you disprove it through critical analysis.

I'm sorry. I can not help you with this.

I can tell you what i think and feel.
You can tell me what you think or feel.

But only you have the power to change/mold your mind and thoughts.
You decide what you think is right or wrong.
You are the one to choose if the logic is OK or not.

It's all your own responsability how you see the world.
It's your life, and your choice to live it like you choose.
And the consequesense are all yours.

/yari

 

[kaizasosei]

What I’ve seen of aikido it appears to be a Shinto flavored version of professional wrestling with the emphasis on moves appearing effortless instead of brutally powerful.

this could be a decent discription of a certain observation but you are missing on some key elements of aikido.-
completely understandable in your realistic thinking, chances are most of the time, you are probably right.

however, know that aikido are the extended moves of stick, sword spear combat.
if you need to hear specific ideas, which nevertheless only limit the style, then i could hint at how the footwork and body positioning resembles that of spear and sword evasion. the motions of the body and arms closely mimicing the motions and stance of a weilded sword.
this would tie in to real sword combat, swordtechniques and sword grappling and lastly the jujutsustyle pins.

the reason that aikido is effortless, is because the the energy is constantly flowing. aikido also aiming to be realistic has very high standards. the energy must be flowing. this is not a standard imposed by any martial art or philosophy, it is a natural thing.
when the energy gets too locked up, one could say, neither party is in complete control of the situation. one could say they are equal. call it chikarakurabe. often when both know each other. or train together ie have the same style- then they will more likely get into the stalemate situation of being equal.
aikido is designed for or often can be seen recreating situations where there are many attackers coming in and then each of them is effortlessly tossed to and fro. one needs to imagine that kind of situation.
if someone is truly welltrained, they can pulloff anything from what one sees in aikido. it just depends on that specific situation the environment and the skill or fate of the individual.

any mma try training with knives and against swords, and i garantee that it would put a spin on things. the positive side of the mma is that they are so for real and truly tough as opposed to many exploiters of the martial ways who are in reality not capable. so imagine if the mma trained against live blades and live knives, -
whatever, i don't want to give any bad advice, but just show that the idea is different.
thing is, you see only the friendly side of aikido. those dancing motions are
only the practice for the real thing. they are not always the real thing.
on the other hand, aiki can be used for simple hand to hand combat. there is not that much striking taught in many aikido dojos, but striking is a natural part of the sword for example.

after all, aikido is the art of using a sword without having a sword

just some ideas





j

 

[Robot Jesus]

I’m not certain I agree, but I’m not willing to make a statement on this until I train in aikido a bit.

But what do you mean by MMA?

 

[Brother John]

I see aikidoka throwing grown men like ragdolls. Why don’t you see judo fighters adopting aikido throws like we did with wrestling throws?

I've not yet read all the way through the thread yet, just the first post and first reply....so this may have already been mentioned.

It may have to do with the fact that a Judoka must maintain a 'grip' for a throw/takedown to be permissable in competition.
maybe?

Your Brother
John

 

[Tez3]

I’m not certain I agree, but I’m not willing to make a statement on this until I train in aikido a bit.

But what do you mean by MMA?

Mixed Martial Arts. Have a look on the MMA forum for the description and read the posts there.

 

[P A Goldsbury]

before ueshibasensei passed away, many people tell that he tried in vain to rename aikido by changing the chinese character for harmonizing or meeting (ai) into love(ai)- but the student were so powerful at the time that they either resisted or themselves could not overcome as the ball was already rolling



j

At the risk of some thread drift, would you like to expand on this? Where is the evidence that he tried to do this and was stopped? I have read all of his writings in Japanese, and he occasionally writes that aiki (matching + ki) is really aiki (love + ki), but this does not amount to renaming the art.

Best wishes,

 

[kaizasosei]

although many people could be classed under the term mma possibly without being aware of it themselves. also, i believe that all martial arts are mixed to some degree. after that it is mostly form where differences can be found. in essence, most martial arts are much more similar than the practitioners would like to think.. least it seems that way to me.
what i meant by mma are mainly the people who call themselves mma or claim to be training in mma. further maybe i would include some people from the bjj scence. not that what im saying is bad, or good. - mma are still skillfully using sophisticated techniques to win(often not enough arsenal in my opinion, but hey), traditional martial artists cannot denny real life and the power of effectivity. they go hand in hand like yin and yang. also, the mma fighters cannot deny the richness of traditional martial arts even if they give up on certain martial arts due to poor examples.
i meant a certain kind of martial artist that concentrates on realistic yet often sportive one on one handtohandcombat with an emphasis on grappling techniques. i think it's obvious who im talking about.

i'm not sure about the aikido story. as i mentioned, i only heard of it and read about it. i could try to research and find where i read it in the first place so that i could get the story straight. however, i was also just trying to point out that aikido need not be something that is so rigid. although i admire the uniform and methodical nature of aikido techniques, i think some people stick too much to the form not realizing the fullness of possibilities.
as a phenomenon, i know that aiki was a term that was created or established close to a thousand years ago by someone who analyticaly studied the essence of the martial arts.

as i see it, every technique in martial arts works because of aiki. some people need to learn aiki...get tossed.throw others etc.
many others just need to understand.
and even if one can understand. one could then probe further and ask; which part of me is understanding this?
i mean in a heaty situation, am i able to act according to my teachings?


j












j

 

[P A Goldsbury]

Hello,

Thank you for your reply. A few more comments.

i'm not sure about the aikido story. as i mentioned, i only heard of it and read about it. i could try to research and find where i read it in the first place so that i could get the story straight.

Well, you posted it. I would have thought that you would have got the story straight before posting it.

however, i was also just trying to point out that aikido need not be something that is so rigid. although i admire the uniform and methodical nature of aikido techniques, i think some people stick too much to the form not realizing the fullness of possibilities.

Agreed.

as a phenomenon, i know that aiki was a term that was created or established close to a thousand years ago by someone who analyticaly studied the essence of the martial arts.j

Again, I have to ask where is your evidence. For example, the term does not appear with the 'aiki' kanji reading in Morohashi's Dai Kanwa Jiten. It should have done if the term was created close to a thousand years ago. As I stated above, I am not saying you are wrong: I am simply seeking the evidence.

Best wishes,

PAG

 

[kaizasosei]

here are the facts about the term aiki. i personally believe that the concept of aiki as an internal aspect of the techniques could be expressed in other words. perhaps there was such a term from even earlier martial arts. however, there is no evidence as such and i myself find it hard if not impossible to come up with a better term to express it. although, using chinese characters for harmony/unification- communication?...i'm sure there are possibilities.
however, one cannot deny the amazing discoveries and research of the past. this kind of research comes to repeat itself time and time again. then it quickly advances to unveil the subtle nature of the human being and the interconnectedness of all things.

so anyways, the history that i was referring to can be found on various sites connected to the daitoryu, one of if not the main style that ueshibasensei incorperated into aikido.

hope it's alright to post this stuff, ill just quote what i found on the Daitoryu sites.

DAITO-RYU AIKI JUJITSU ROPPOKAI ​

Daito-Ryu is said to have been founded by Minamoto no Shinra Saburo Yoshimitsu (1045-1127), the last grandson of emperor Seiwa. Yoshimitsu, was the younger brother of Minamoto no Hachiman Taro Yoshiie (1041- 1108), who was considered to be the greatest warrior in all of Japanese History. It's very likely that the earlier combat methods of the Minamoto clan were actually just refined and perfected by General Yoshimitsu, and his elder brother Yoshiie.
Yoshimitsu, was a teacher of so-jutsu (spear), To- ho (sword methods), and Tai-jutsu (body arts), as well as archery, and he was noted firstly, for having dissected the cadavers of executed criminals and slain enemy soldiers of the "Three-year war" (1083). Through this study of the structure of the human body he mastered Gyakute and Ichigeki Hissatsu (techniques of killing with one blow); secondly, by watching the silk spider catch it's prey, he obtained a hint which led to the discovery of the core of Aiki. Therefore Yoshimitsu is considered to be the one who originally developed the techniques of Daito-Ryu by adding to the previous secret techniques of the Minamoto clan, and passing those techniques down to the Takeda family of Kai.
In 1573 Kunitsugu Takeda, a relative of Takeda Shingen was appointed governor of Aizu, and moved his family, and retainers there. It was at this time that the traditional art of Daito-Ryu took form. Daito-Ryu (also called Goshikinai ), became the official self- defense art at the Aizu castle. The successive lords, and their bodyguards practiced it as the secret art of the Aizu clan, and passed it on until the fall of the Shogunate.
According to history, only the chief samurai's with an income of more than 500 koku, the pageboys, the court ladies, and those who served directly under the Shogun, were allowed to learn the art.

also:

The art of AIKI of the TAKEDA school is first documented in the 12th century as "TAKEDA RYU AIKI NO JUTSU", but its origins go much further back in history. SOKE NAKAMURA, current head of the school TAKEDA RYU NAKAMURA HA, quoted the following passage from the records on the TAKEDA school:

In the 27th year of the reign of the twelfth TENNO (emperor) by the name of KEIKO (KEIGYO), the KUMASO tribe rebelled. As a result, the heir to the throne, YAMATO TAKERU NO MIKOTO, was sent on an expedition to punish the KUMASO. On his way, he performed a cleansing ceremony at KAMIYO waterfall. He placed his feet on the rocky floor of the waterfall, spread his arms wide, was filled with the power of the spirit and gathered the entire strength of his body in his fingertips. Turning towards heaven, he executed several upward blows, then let his hands drop and struck out powerfully several times with his arms. After the prince had completed these movements, he decided to attack the KUMASO. Disguised as a woman, he crept into the enemy’s camp and there roused the sleeping leader of the KUMASO. When the leader tried to attack him, the prince opened his arms, was filled with spiritual strength and threw the KUMASO leader to the ground, having already snatched his sword from him. This technique of spreading one’s arms and throwing down one’s opponent was the beginning of AIKI.

and....

History Of Daito-Ryu Aiki Budo

Daito-ryu Aiki Budo has come down to us from time immemorial. The first written record of it can be found in the era of Emperor Seiwa, and it has descended through the Genji family over the generations and was formalized into a school by Shinra Saburo Yoshimitsu. In other words, Yoshimitsu studied and researched the techniques handed down in his family in more detail. He dissected corpses brought back from wars in order to explore human anatomy and mastered a decisive counter-technique as well as discovering lethal atemi. Yoshimitsu then mastered a technique for killing with a single blow. Through such great efforts, he mastered the essence of aiki and discovered the secret techniques of Aiki Budo. Therefore, Yoshimitsu is the person who is credited with being the founder of the original school of Daito-ryu.

i will try to research about the renaming of aikido but realistically, i don't think i will be able to confirm the true nature of this story. i mean, i personally believe there must be truth in it...even if it were a rumor, it may be based on some other reason. - i myself am not saying it's not perfect as it is. also i am not saying i understand the other way to be better...actually i have trouble understanding it at all like probably many people, but somehow, it would make sense to me if the sensei decided to call it that.

 

[Robot Jesus]

the mma fighters cannot deny the richness of traditional martial arts even if they give up on certain martial arts due to poor examples.
j

What do you mean exactly by tradition. Both what it is and how one benefits from it.

Maybe its my favor of Nietzsche but I have a pretty dim view of tradition.

 

[Yari]

What do you mean exactly by tradition. Both what it is and how one benefits from it.

Maybe its my favor of Nietzsche but I have a pretty dim view of tradition.

I'm not sure your understand your own frame of mind on this.

By haveing the idea (frame of mind) that something is bad, it will pr. default be bad.

Let me give you an example:

You think that all green poeple are idiots. If you ask them a clear question they dont answer it.

So one day you decide to try this out. You ask the first green person "What time is it?". The time is 12:15, that you know. So you think that you'll be flexible and openminded, so if they say something between 12:00 and 12:30. That would be OK. You'll also ready to be so openminded that if they just arrived from another time zone the watch my show something completly else. But you should be able to talk to them so they understand.

Now your waiting for the green person to answer. "Oh I'm sorry I can't help you" he answers, eventhough he has a watch on his wrist. And he hurries away. Now you've taken this into account, by placing yourself outside the old trainstation clock, so you looking up to this making sure your following the time. If he knew that his watch was broken, he could look up to the clock and telle the time, even point out that you could see the time on it.

Well, you conclude that green people are really stupide. You gave him every chance to prove that they could handle a simple question. But even that they could'nt handle.

The logic isn't bad, and true the gree guy didn't answer the question, he even ran away looking guilty.

What you didn't know and take into consideration was that the green guys watch did work, and that he did notice you looking at the stations clock, many times. He was late for a meeting, and had to hurry. He had no time for discussions. He noticed also that you had a watch. So when aproached by you, he choose to take the fastest way out.

My point being that if you had been openminded to green poeple you probably would have experience somthing else. And by open minded I mean that you don't define which answers and situtations are the correct ones. By defining them your just defining yourself.

It's OK to have your own meaning. And I'm fine with you not liking traditional arts. But stating that your meeting them with an open mind, I just have to point out that your not.

/Yari

 

[kaizasosei]

What do you mean exactly by tradition. Both what it is and how one benefits from it.

by tradition, i mean the different arts that have been either passed down over the ages or put together recently nevertheless being rich in history or tradition.
for example, wushu, karate-jujutsu/judo- kendo - aikijutsu - one could definately include kickboxing as it is part of thai culture. so the training of the kickboxers will often follow traditional patterns or routines-supplemented with lots of knowledge gained from the longstanding arts.

so by tradition, i mean all classic martial arts that were not invented yesterday. of course, on the other hand, one could say that mma is a budding tradition. after all, we are not putting any time frame as a reference to how long it takes to start a tradition.
this reminds me of the word authentic in it's original greek meaning. it was interesting for me to learn that authentas signifies not only the verity of a subject or matter, authentas also implies somebody who does things in order achieve the goals he needs to achieve- not someone who blindly follows the teachings of others..but actually someone who is able to create his own teachings by understanding the true essence of what needs to be achieved. someone who does it on his own,,- sortof hard to put into words-dunno if it makes sense.



j