karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
Hiya Arnis.
I have that book too. I never thought of it that way, and I have to agree.
I have that book too. I never thought of it that way, and I have to agree.
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ThuNder_FoOt
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #102
I unfortunatley agree Arnis. I also have the book in my collection, and I was confused in reading that part. It does promote the McDojo theory..... argh.
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TKDblackbelt251
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- Thread Starter
- #103
I can understand why some people THINK that taekwondo is stupid and that most schools are just belt factories...BUT there are many good schools out there....at my school it takes more than 4 yrs to get a black belt. I am 15 and have a second degree black belt and many people seem to find this to be horrible BUT i cant even tell you how many adult womens championships ive won at open tournaments....so me, a 15 yrs old black belt can beat the 20 and 30 yr old black belts. Ive also had the comments about how a 15 yr old cannot have the discipline or the knowlege to have a black belt....but these people dont know me. ive been studying tkd for 10 of my 15 yrs and yea when i was 6 i didnt understand the philosophy but think of how knowlegable i will be by the time im 20! ive worked extremely EXTREMELY hard for my rank and im proud of it...so when people put it down its like puttin down my whole life...i feel like i earned it! One more thing....traditional TKD schools like mine arent like WTF and ITF . We learn TKD (the way of the foot and the hand) meaning we learn with BOTH our HANDS and our FEET and in addition we learn hapkido/kumdo/yudo and some weapons. Dont put down an intire art because of some bad school....and like someone else said.....most of my friends have NEVER lost to someone from Karate...BUT im sure that there are many great karate school!
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MTisGreat
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #104
i downloaded a vid from kazaa and saw Muay Thai vs TKD and the tkd guy got his *** kicked seious style. the thing about tkd is that the training is tooo much on the abstract side
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
Unless its a different video than what I saw the TKD artist got his butt kicked because he had no defence for leg kicks and was knocked on his *** over and over. Same thing would have happened to any art that doesnt throw full contact kicks to the leg regularly to develop good reflexes and defences for leg kicks. Not trying to defend TKD against Muay Thai, just poining out that karate, kung fu and other arts have all fallen prey to Muay Thais leg kicks over and over.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
My 2 cents.
When I signed up Sifu joked about TKD (someone in here has a Sifu at his TKD schoo BTW. This is suspicious. TKD is Korean right? Sifu is a Chinese term. What do you call a traditional TKD teacher? Sensei? Is that Japanese? My Sifu was teaching "Chinese Kenpo." My teacher now is referred to as Mr. or Sir.). I think the primary reason was because of its popularity and it's success as a McDojo. McDojo meaning that they are everywhere, successful in business and probably sacrificing too much on quality in favor of gaining market share.
I also worked with a 2nd Degree Black Belt Olympic Alernate to the US TKD team. There were some Martial Artists at work and we would talk at lunch etc. One day this guy said that he would be afraid to use TKD in the street because he is so used to "Tag" that he knew he'd back off after a "point" and get killed.
Since Kenpo has a diametrically opposed focus, TKD is a logical target for Kenpo guys. BTW, there are plenty of Kenpo guys who will tell you that other Kenpo guys suck, so don't think there is a unified effort of Kenpo guys vs TKD. I think that when Kenpo started as a franchise, TKD was very popular and successful in the tournament circuit and had more press... and therefore made it hard to launch a Kenpo school. Just a guess. I think it is true that TKD took over the midwest and Texas in particular early on and I think famous guys like Skipper Mullins were TKD guys so TKD was the King of the Mountain and the logical target for anyone wanting to become King of the Mountain.
It is a testament to TKD success that so many people shoot at it. Like someone said earlier, who picks on OS2 instead of Microsoft? What would you gain by comparing yourself to an obscure competitor. The TKD bashing is mostly business motivated.
Finally, I will say that I have an invitation to go spar at a TKD school (actually they say they are Tex-Kwon Do
) which is run by a Very successful tournament champion. The first night I was there, I sparred with the champ and he threw a spinning Axe/Crescent kick off his Supporting Rear Leg (where his weight was) and hit me in the side of the nose right at the corner of my eye. He moved so fast, and hit with such precision that it was obvious he had total mastery of this move. He didn't hurt me at all. Not even a mark, but my nose "crunched" and I was afraid I'd had it when he hit me.
Later he and one of his students were going at it harder and he did the same or a similar kick to his student while at close range. It turned his students headgear 90degrees and he had to grab him to keep him standing.
A good TKD guy can kill you with some goofy kick that a lot of Kenpo guys won't be trained to respond to. They are dangerous.
That is my 2 cents. I don't know anything about ITF/WTF (how does this relate to Jhoon Rhee?) but I know that TKD people are generally more acrobatic, and the ones that train hard are scary.
By the same token I think they do/did neglect the hands and Kenpo prides itself on hands and on using multiple ranges, sometimes in the same defense sequence, so this is just something else to make fun of. Again, business motivated. At camps and so on you will hear good instructors and fighters continually emphasize that every style deserves some respect.
:asian:
When I signed up Sifu joked about TKD (someone in here has a Sifu at his TKD schoo BTW. This is suspicious. TKD is Korean right? Sifu is a Chinese term. What do you call a traditional TKD teacher? Sensei? Is that Japanese? My Sifu was teaching "Chinese Kenpo." My teacher now is referred to as Mr. or Sir.). I think the primary reason was because of its popularity and it's success as a McDojo. McDojo meaning that they are everywhere, successful in business and probably sacrificing too much on quality in favor of gaining market share.
I also worked with a 2nd Degree Black Belt Olympic Alernate to the US TKD team. There were some Martial Artists at work and we would talk at lunch etc. One day this guy said that he would be afraid to use TKD in the street because he is so used to "Tag" that he knew he'd back off after a "point" and get killed.
Since Kenpo has a diametrically opposed focus, TKD is a logical target for Kenpo guys. BTW, there are plenty of Kenpo guys who will tell you that other Kenpo guys suck, so don't think there is a unified effort of Kenpo guys vs TKD. I think that when Kenpo started as a franchise, TKD was very popular and successful in the tournament circuit and had more press... and therefore made it hard to launch a Kenpo school. Just a guess. I think it is true that TKD took over the midwest and Texas in particular early on and I think famous guys like Skipper Mullins were TKD guys so TKD was the King of the Mountain and the logical target for anyone wanting to become King of the Mountain.
It is a testament to TKD success that so many people shoot at it. Like someone said earlier, who picks on OS2 instead of Microsoft? What would you gain by comparing yourself to an obscure competitor. The TKD bashing is mostly business motivated.
Finally, I will say that I have an invitation to go spar at a TKD school (actually they say they are Tex-Kwon Do
) which is run by a Very successful tournament champion. The first night I was there, I sparred with the champ and he threw a spinning Axe/Crescent kick off his Supporting Rear Leg (where his weight was) and hit me in the side of the nose right at the corner of my eye. He moved so fast, and hit with such precision that it was obvious he had total mastery of this move. He didn't hurt me at all. Not even a mark, but my nose "crunched" and I was afraid I'd had it when he hit me. Later he and one of his students were going at it harder and he did the same or a similar kick to his student while at close range. It turned his students headgear 90degrees and he had to grab him to keep him standing.
A good TKD guy can kill you with some goofy kick that a lot of Kenpo guys won't be trained to respond to. They are dangerous.
That is my 2 cents. I don't know anything about ITF/WTF (how does this relate to Jhoon Rhee?) but I know that TKD people are generally more acrobatic, and the ones that train hard are scary.
By the same token I think they do/did neglect the hands and Kenpo prides itself on hands and on using multiple ranges, sometimes in the same defense sequence, so this is just something else to make fun of. Again, business motivated. At camps and so on you will hear good instructors and fighters continually emphasize that every style deserves some respect.
:asian:
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sweeper
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #107
I'm not involved in either art, but it seems that a good portion of the pro/con arguements involving TKD are Kempo vs TKD. is this beacause of the practitioners on this board or do TKD/kempo guys fued more than other arts?
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Danny
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #108
Must be the board, becuase I've been in TKD almost 10 years and I have never even heard of Kenpo outside of this message board.
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
I had never heard of kenpo either. Who the heck are these crazy kenpo guys anyway? haha.
The name in korean for a TKD instructor is Sabunim. So a Sifu at a TKD scholl does seem pretty weird.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
The name in korean for a TKD instructor is Sabunim. So a Sifu at a TKD scholl does seem pretty weird.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
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kenpo_jeff
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #110
Guys,
There is no ongoing fued between TKD and Kenpo. What you are seeing is the immaturity of a few practitioners on both sides. This is nothing more than a testament of how poorly their attitudes really are.
This happens alot because of the secretive nature of the internet, noone really knows who you are so people say just about anything and get away with it.
Coming from one who has studied both arts for many years, I can tell you that both are quite similar regarding technique, but the methods of teaching, what is being taught, and the purpose of the instruction is quite different.
Most (not all) TKD schools are teaching "sport" TKD. This is not to say that they completely ignore self-defense techniques or that their art is worthless. The difference is when the instructor does not teach the students the differences between "sport" and "street" techniques.
Kenpo, on the other hand, trains mostly in practical self-defense techniques. This is not to say that a kenpo fighter would not be good in a tournament, again it simply depends on how you are being trained.
Personally, I teach a mixture of TKD and Kenpo. My beginning students learn the basic stances and techniques of TKD. When they are ready (depends on the individual student), I also teach them Kenpo and we learn the myriad of Kenpo self-defense techniques. I also teach my students to respect themselves, their instructors, and other styles.
Salute
There is no ongoing fued between TKD and Kenpo. What you are seeing is the immaturity of a few practitioners on both sides. This is nothing more than a testament of how poorly their attitudes really are.
This happens alot because of the secretive nature of the internet, noone really knows who you are so people say just about anything and get away with it.
Coming from one who has studied both arts for many years, I can tell you that both are quite similar regarding technique, but the methods of teaching, what is being taught, and the purpose of the instruction is quite different.
Most (not all) TKD schools are teaching "sport" TKD. This is not to say that they completely ignore self-defense techniques or that their art is worthless. The difference is when the instructor does not teach the students the differences between "sport" and "street" techniques.
Kenpo, on the other hand, trains mostly in practical self-defense techniques. This is not to say that a kenpo fighter would not be good in a tournament, again it simply depends on how you are being trained.
Personally, I teach a mixture of TKD and Kenpo. My beginning students learn the basic stances and techniques of TKD. When they are ready (depends on the individual student), I also teach them Kenpo and we learn the myriad of Kenpo self-defense techniques. I also teach my students to respect themselves, their instructors, and other styles.
Salute
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
I totally agree, Jeff.
I do TKD, and I've done TSD. Both of my dojangs (schools) teaches/taught everything from self defense to sport. But they also tell you the difference. My old instructor says something like "This move is great in competetion, but it'll get you killed in the street" when he teaches. He'll let you know the difference between self defense and "sport" type stuff.
Someone esle mentioned Muay Thai kicks, and I have to agree with that somewhat. My TSD instructor taught us Muay Thai kicks. I love them. Very effective, and powerful. In self defense, I'd use them over TKD kicks, but some TKD kicks, if done right, can also be effective. You have to know when and where to use them.
As far as TKD and hand techniques, we learn them. The schools that teach only "sport" don't. Because hand tech's to the head aren't allowed. In TSD tournies, they are. So, even if I do TKD, I'd join a TSD tourny so I can do what I'm used to (using hand techs as well as kicks). But some TKD tournies do allow hands, but it's rare from what I've seen.
I do TKD, and I've done TSD. Both of my dojangs (schools) teaches/taught everything from self defense to sport. But they also tell you the difference. My old instructor says something like "This move is great in competetion, but it'll get you killed in the street" when he teaches. He'll let you know the difference between self defense and "sport" type stuff.
Someone esle mentioned Muay Thai kicks, and I have to agree with that somewhat. My TSD instructor taught us Muay Thai kicks. I love them. Very effective, and powerful. In self defense, I'd use them over TKD kicks, but some TKD kicks, if done right, can also be effective. You have to know when and where to use them.
As far as TKD and hand techniques, we learn them. The schools that teach only "sport" don't. Because hand tech's to the head aren't allowed. In TSD tournies, they are. So, even if I do TKD, I'd join a TSD tourny so I can do what I'm used to (using hand techs as well as kicks). But some TKD tournies do allow hands, but it's rare from what I've seen.
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kenpo_jeff
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #112
Hi Laurie,
It sounds like you have a great instructor. Believe me, they are getting fewer and harder to find
BTW: There is a great article in the current Black Belt magazine discussing some Korean low kicks.
Taekwon,
It sounds like you have a great instructor. Believe me, they are getting fewer and harder to find
BTW: There is a great article in the current Black Belt magazine discussing some Korean low kicks.
Taekwon,
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
I was serious when I said I had never heard of Kenpo, so when I ask who are these crazy kenpo guys its because I think its crazy to have a fued with another art heh.
Just a little word of advice to the new people on this board. Before you post about peoples attitudes and make assumptions, read about them and read their previous posts. Maybe even check their profile.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Just a little word of advice to the new people on this board. Before you post about peoples attitudes and make assumptions, read about them and read their previous posts. Maybe even check their profile.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
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ThuNder_FoOt
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #114
I believe some of the posts in this thread seem to be a little biased towards Kenpo. Both arts are great, and have the potential to be exceptional, depending on the practioner.
In reference to the Kenpo/Kempo vs. TKD discussion... I have experienced such tension as a TKD player, from Kenpo students, masters, etc... as I have seen the reverse from cocky TKD players to respectful Kenpo players. I don't believe this "feud" goes for the arts as a whole, however the immaturity does exist. It has even been televised. An example of a movie... Jeff Speakman's "The Perfect Weapon ", great movie I might add.
Just to clarify, i don't think anyone can say that any "One" art focuses solely on a particular aspect of training. This would be due to the fact that there will always be exceptions to any style.
It's very disappointing to hear the infamous Art "A" has advantages over Art "B". Thats like trying to generalize "Night is better than Day". Advantages and disadvantages of any style are ALL equal, therefore nullifying all..... until the varible of a practioner is added. I believe one is not a martial artist until this is realized. :asian: :asian:
In reference to the Kenpo/Kempo vs. TKD discussion... I have experienced such tension as a TKD player, from Kenpo students, masters, etc... as I have seen the reverse from cocky TKD players to respectful Kenpo players. I don't believe this "feud" goes for the arts as a whole, however the immaturity does exist. It has even been televised. An example of a movie... Jeff Speakman's "The Perfect Weapon ", great movie I might add.
Just to clarify, i don't think anyone can say that any "One" art focuses solely on a particular aspect of training. This would be due to the fact that there will always be exceptions to any style.
It's very disappointing to hear the infamous Art "A" has advantages over Art "B". Thats like trying to generalize "Night is better than Day". Advantages and disadvantages of any style are ALL equal, therefore nullifying all..... until the varible of a practioner is added. I believe one is not a martial artist until this is realized. :asian: :asian:
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kenpo_jeff
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #115
Damian:
Nothing was directed at you, and FYI, I have read many a post on this topic. Both in this forum and the Kenpo forum, and what I have seen is disheartening.
So, just because I may not have posted in the past, I am entitled as much to my opinion as you are yours.
Taekwon,
Nothing was directed at you, and FYI, I have read many a post on this topic. Both in this forum and the Kenpo forum, and what I have seen is disheartening.
So, just because I may not have posted in the past, I am entitled as much to my opinion as you are yours.
Taekwon,
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
Hiya, Jeff.
Yes, I just picked that issue of Black Belt up tonight. I will definitely read it. Thanks
As far as TKD and Kenpo, I don't bash other arts. I'm actually interested in a few others (including Kenpo). I'm not bias at all. Why should I bash an art I never tried? Right? I know it wasn't directed at me, but I was using myself as an example. I enjoy watching other arts. Everytime I do, I learn something.
Yes, I just picked that issue of Black Belt up tonight. I will definitely read it. Thanks
As far as TKD and Kenpo, I don't bash other arts. I'm actually interested in a few others (including Kenpo). I'm not bias at all. Why should I bash an art I never tried? Right? I know it wasn't directed at me, but I was using myself as an example. I enjoy watching other arts. Everytime I do, I learn something.
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
"So, just because I may not have posted in the past, I am entitled as much to my opinion as you are yours."
Where did you get that I didnt think you were entitled to your opinion? You seem to have some negativity about all this and I don't understand why at all. I have absolutely no bias about any traditional martial art because to me they are all lumped into the same category : a traditional martial art. Some are taught by good instructors and some are not. Has nothing to do with the art itself. All styles of Kung fu, karate, TKD etc are pretty much the same to me. How they are taught can make a huge difference though.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Where did you get that I didnt think you were entitled to your opinion? You seem to have some negativity about all this and I don't understand why at all. I have absolutely no bias about any traditional martial art because to me they are all lumped into the same category : a traditional martial art. Some are taught by good instructors and some are not. Has nothing to do with the art itself. All styles of Kung fu, karate, TKD etc are pretty much the same to me. How they are taught can make a huge difference though.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
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Danny
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #118
I disagree. All arts are not created equal. Certainly a good instructor, and dedicated students certainly make the vast majority of difference in any art, but some are just better then others for given purposes.
Kempojujutsu
Master Black Belt
Before I get to involved in this story, I do want to say I have done TKD before, and I have work with some TKD people also. And I can say I am glad I don't do it any more. Any way I went to TKD Demostration the other night to see what was so great about it. There where kids and adults and many black belts also. Complaint No. 1 I saw a boy around 8-10 years old at 7th degree Black Belt. He was good but not a 7th degree black belt. May after another 20 years of training.
Complaint No.2 Almost every one that went through their forms, look like they had just learn it. There was no power in the movements, they pause and seem to forget what they where doing and this was the black belts.
Complaint No.3 On the Self Defense If you want to call it that. they would just stick their arm out for a punch and one girl walk right into it. Good think it was just stuck out there. The same thing was true for their Knife defense.
This was again an ATA Tae Kwon Do School, and most people I have talk to say they SUCK. But they give all you other TKD'ers out there a BAD NAME.
Bob :asian:
Complaint No.2 Almost every one that went through their forms, look like they had just learn it. There was no power in the movements, they pause and seem to forget what they where doing and this was the black belts.
Complaint No.3 On the Self Defense If you want to call it that. they would just stick their arm out for a punch and one girl walk right into it. Good think it was just stuck out there. The same thing was true for their Knife defense.
This was again an ATA Tae Kwon Do School, and most people I have talk to say they SUCK. But they give all you other TKD'ers out there a BAD NAME.
Bob :asian:
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Pyrael
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #120
wtf? holy ****...i've havent seen something like that ever! it seems that money determines what color your belt is. but surely it doesnt determine the fighter within. for instructors who have a large number of youths and kids in their school, what goes through your mind when they perform poorly during a test?
