Why does everyone mouth off on TKD?

[Battousai]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

In my city I am the ONLY instructor who teaches TKD the way I do, the other 100 schools all teach tradtitional TKD with a little self defence thrown in.

Finding anything good with the label TKD is like a finding a needle in a haystack. Average TKD is worthless for anything besides aerobics. Maybe one school in a hundred has something to offer someone interested in self defense and not sport fighting.

Thats why anyone who does TKD is suspect of not knowing the difference between real martial arts and a hole in the ground. "Suspect," because from these accounts I will concede that maybe TKD as a real martial art exists somewhere out there.

Where ever these real TKD schools are, they should drop the normal TKD name, get some different name, because the TKD name is smeared in the mud. Drop out of these money grubbing organizations, ITF, WTF, and become independant.

What these fake TKD schools do that is a blatent lie is to advertise sport fighting as self defense. Their curiculum is tournament fighting, with a side of inferior self defense thrown in as an afterthought. Yet that which accounts maybe 5 to 10 percent of their teaching they advertise as if that was the whole of what they teach.
If they just dropped the self defense label, and advertised "sport fighting" or something like that as what they teach, I would have no problem with them.
I stipulate that these fake TKD schools, taebo and such programs have some inherit qualities that relate to self defense, punching, kicking and so on. But the set of things that relate to self defense includes ballet, weight lifting, distance running, acrobatics, beijing opera, etc, etc. Even Jackie Chan when talking about his training in beijing opera clearly states that it is not a martial art, that martial arts training was something he did after his original martial arts movies seemed popular.
It is clear that many things relate to self defense and improve a person's health and ability to defend themself, but none of these things actually call themselves self defense and advertise as if they were for self defense.

 

[Pyrael]

well said

 

[Damian Mavis]

Yes they are few and far between, and I'm not saying that just to make myslef look good. I've seen several good TKD schools.....but theres alot of crap out there unfortunately that gives all TKD a bad name. The same can be said for karate and even kung fu now. You don't see it as much in the other 2 because it's a numbers game. There are way way more TKD schools than karate and way more karate schools than kung fu. So you see less crap schools from the other 2 arts but only cause there's less of them. I base this opinion on having taken the time to visit many martial arts schools of various arts. You would be horrified to see the stuff alot of places pass of as self defence. Completely unrealistic and dangerous.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Hollywood1340]

Thought I would throw my thoughts out on the issue. Every art has it's place. For me personally, my Hapkido and Taekwondo are my standing techniques, my Judo is transition, and it's jujitsu from there. It's easy as a martial artist to be just a karateka, kenpoist, taekata, or judoka. I lurk on several martial message boards, and see "Kenpo is a slap art, utterly worthless" or "TKD, what a joke". It's very easy to say that from the sidelines. I know I've been guilty of it at one time or another.
Then you hang around a kenpo school and you FEEL the way those "slaps" leave you utterly helpless. Or receive a side-kick from a TKD 5th dan that sends you across the dojang. This is it kiddies!
My judo instructor, a 5th Dan was explaining to me how sport develops an athlete. Through the application of sport to any discipline you develop speed, timing, and strength. These are essential not just in the ring, but in the "real world" as well. And that is where sport has it's place.
It's so often I find that people are of one mind set or the other. I.E. It's either a martial art or crap, or it's a martial sport or crap. Why not differentiate between the two and give them their rightful place?
Take TKD for instance. TKD is a very competetive and sometimes brutal sport. Five kicks in mid air, all landing at full power takes years of dedicated training and disciplined regime common to all martial endeavors, no matter what they may be. The prowess and physical condition of these athletes attest to this regime. Who is anybody to say they are "wimps?" I speak from experience when I say "Those who look down on TKD sparring, have never truly TKD sparred"
On the other foot (pun intended) you have self-defensive arts, Hapkido, Ken(m)po, Aikido. I'm no great authority on these, but they to the same extent have dedicated training and a disciplined regime as well. I'll take my hat off to just about any member of a martial art any day, because I belive it is not my place to say otherwise.
I guess my point is learn about other arts, and understand the place they occupy. It may not be the place you occupy in the martial scheme of things, but it's important none the less.

 

[Pyrael]

for those who have their respectful doubts, would or have you questioned your tkd teacher for the effectiveness of tkd by challenging them in a full contact no rules fight? it would be interesting to see a "movie style" match between a student who is a mixed martial artist againts a tkd master. call this audatious but this is a question that popped into my head ever since this idea was brought up.

but for those tkd masters, i respect their credentials and believe that their long commitment to martial arts would determine the outcome of such a challenge to their favor.:asian:

 

[Hollywood1340]

They are smart enough to cross-train in something else. My sabum does it all. CDT, Krav Maga, CHKD, Judo in addition to his TKD. He's been there, done that. His favorite saying is "Why have the sport when you can have the real thing?". But since we speak hypotheticaly...I'd have to say it's not the art, but the fighter. There are taekwondo guys who will hand you your head if you mix it up with them, simply because of pure speed and power. Remember kiddies, TKD is full contact, full speed at the elite levels. So I'm officaly declaring it a draw. Second opinions anyone?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340

CDT, Krav Maga, CHKD

What are CDT and CHKD?

 

[Hollywood1340]

Sir,
CDT=Control, Direction, Takedown
About CDT Not my school, but only thing I could find quickly. It REALLY hurts.
CHKD=Combat Hapkdio
Combat Hapkido
Hope that helps!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think you folks have summed it up pretty good. Its not the "Art" its the "Implementation".

I've done Kenpo, Modern Arnis, Wing Chun and a bit of Tai Chi and JKD.

I've side-line analyzed em all, and 'seen the holes'.

Well, for all the folks who say WC isn't any good, I have yet to get through my Sifu's defences. His 1" punch bounced me off a wall 6 feet away.

I've felt the "slaps" from the Kenpo guys....all I can say was "nice ceiling, needs some paint".

etc. etc.

I think it comes down to if you have quality instruction + lots of practice + dedication, allmost any art will give you the tools to good defence.

 

[Pyrael]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340

They are smart enough to cross-train in something else. My sabum does it all. CDT, Krav Maga, CHKD, Judo in addition to his TKD. He's been there, done that. His favorite saying is "Why have the sport when you can have the real thing?". But since we speak hypotheticaly...I'd have to say it's not the art, but the fighter. There are taekwondo guys who will hand you your head if you mix it up with them, simply because of pure speed and power. Remember kiddies, TKD is full contact, full speed at the elite levels. So I'm officaly declaring it a draw. Second opinions anyone?

shoulda been more specific...i see there are those tkd practicioners that will "hand you your head," and i agree. but i was pointing to the masters who are at the end of all the insults; the ones who "water it down."

not the art but the fighter...true but im narrowing it to the art for the purpose to see if the mcdojo's particularly the tkd ones have a respectable master of the art theyre teaching which is the one that makes people "mouth off tkd"

"remember kiddies"... why do you say that?

 

[Pyrael]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I've felt the "slaps" from the Kenpo guys....all I can say was "nice ceiling, needs some paint".

:rofl:

 

[Hollywood1340]

Um..to tell you the truth, I don't know why. Considering the fact I'm not yet old enough to drink alcohol here in the US...yeah. Anywho. It's just my phrase, kinda like how I scream "MARSHMALLOW GEODUCK ©" before I jump into any body of water. So remember kiddies ©!
Hollywood

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340

CDT=Control, Direction, Takedown
About CDT Not my school, but only thing I could find quickly. It REALLY hurts.
CHKD=Combat Hapkdio
Combat Hapkido

Thanks! The CDT program looks interesting.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Why does everybody mouth off on TKD? Becasue it is so easy to.:rofl: :rofl:

 

[Chiduce]

Glad i learned from a good TKD Sifu. He is still doing tournaments, still winning, teaching internal systems and teaching the handicapped. Sorta a traditional guy! Ive worked out with the iron rings, kicked between lines, barriers etc, aligator walked and duck walked etc,. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Why does everybody mouth off on TKD? Becasue it is so easy to.:rofl: :rofl:

Its a same to hear martial minds speak in such a manner. TKD is just as inefficient as the next martial art. Every art will have schools that represent the art poorly. .. just as every art will produce exceptionally talented students. "Its not the art, but its practioner", as this has been stated a million times before, and will probably continue until the end of time.

I believe the degree of efficiency comes from the relationship of master to student. Whether it be a poor student/poor master or good master/good student, each one has an effect on the other depending on the depth of the relationship. I know when I see my students whom genuinely wish to learn everything they can about MA, it motivates me to learn more so that I may better prepare my students for any situation... and the reverse can be said.

I hope some of you can understand what I'm trying to express here. I feel its the most important factor in training, maybe I wasn't descriptive enough. :asian: :asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Why does everybody mouth off on TKD? Becasue it is so easy to.:rofl: :rofl:

A lot of people might agree. I hear very little knocking on Krav Magra, or Systema. (sp?). Of course, In Buffalo, theres only 1 school for KM, none for sys, and over a dozen for TKD. 1 of the TKD schools is next door to a cafe I frequent. The other day, they were doing sparing. All I can say is, it looked pretty good to me through the window.

Its easy to knock the popular, or the successful. Its harder to knock the unknown. Everyone shoots on Microsoft Windows. Whos picking on OS-2? Its still out there. *shrug*

Every art has its fakers and frauds. and every art has its stars.

I could go on a nice tear on how crappy Karate is based on my experiences there, but I know better, as I've since learned from real instructors.

Its all about where you are, and what you want. Some TKD schools are sports oriented, others teach real defence, some neither, some both and some just are.

I think unless we have actually gone to a particular school, its really hard to access the quality of instruction. There are a few exceptions to this of course (Chung Moo for example).

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Well put Kaith. We have to remember that one will see many more bad TKD schools because there are som many more TKD schools! Even if it was the same percentage as bad karate schools you'd still see a higher number of bad TKD schools.

Given the strong relationship between TKD and Japanese karate, to bash one is to a certain extent to bash the other. I've seen many bad TKD schools but let's separate that from the art of TKD itself!

 

[karatekid1975]

Amen Arnisador and Kaith

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Alot of people seem to think that Krav Maga is effective just for the simple fact that its a Military art. Well, TKD is a military art as well. Both Korea and the Republic of China use TKD to teach self-defense techniques to their military forces.

There do seem to be more TKD schools around, than any other MA. I could see how there would be more bad TKD schools. BUt I don't think this applies, because for the higher number of bad TKD schools, there would also be a higher number of good tkd schools...saying the number would be higher than any other MA.

Why does everyone say sport TKD isn't effective?? Can one not take Boxing skills and use them in a real-life situation? Boxing is a sport just like TKD (an olympic sport to boot!), and many people seem to think its effective outside of the ring. There is no difference. Just because one limits himself in the ring, doesn't mean one will also limit himself out of the ring. Sport TKD can be applied to real-life situations just like sport Boxing. The same can be said about Kickboxing and Muay Thai as they are both sports. Will a MT person not kick to the groin in self-defense if the situation calls for it? Its amusing to see how some people become hypocritical in this way, boxing but not TKD.