Why does everyone mouth off on TKD?

[white dragon]

There is indeed a big distinction between competition sparring and self-defence, but then it's just that, competition sparring. I haven't spoken to a WTF club (which is pretty much every university in the UK that teaches WTF) that normally trains in a competition fashion. When sparring we tend to not really have many rules, apart from keep it light, and not going for the eyes. We also tend not to kick below the waist, unless out instructor says to us personally that we can (this doesn't include sweeps) after a couple of people came into the class with no control started smacking people in the balls and actually kicked someones knee cap out. But apart from that, all kicks, punches, holds, throws, sweeps, locks are all allowed as long as you can control them.

Think of say WTF sparring in the sense that you would think of something if you were going to perform it in a competition, such as breaking. You're never going to need to ridge-hand through a load of bricks in the middle of a street fight, sure, but it doesn't mean you won't want to maybe practice before in class... does that make sense?

 

[Klondike93]

the no punching to the face rule only applies in competition

Not from what I've seen in some of the WTF schools I've been in.

I don't like point sparring, and prefer the continuous sparring

Point sparring should be looked at as a game of strategy. You have to use distance and speed to get any points. It's not like your fighting some full contact fighter, it's a game of tag period.
I like continous as well, it's fun you learn to put combos together and you need stamina.

we DO actually learn hand techniques, if we didn't why would we put so many hand techniques in our patterns?

Don't know why, filler maybe?

just how many of your ITF classes or other martial arts for that matter ever train outside of your Dojang?

The ITF, never while I was there. Other schools I've been to, quite often.

I could easily step into a shitty Kempo class and then believe that all Kempo classes must be worthless

Good point, and you'll probably find quite a few of those, that goes for TKD as well, WTF, ITF, ATA, whoever.

:asian:

 

[white dragon]

Games of tag are fun, maybe the next time someone tries to steal your wallet, you should suggest playing a game?

Maybe the hand techniques are in the patterns because, shock horror, they are valid techniques? Just a wild stab in the dark... which as it happens will be something you'll be getting unless you start being more respectful

At the end of the day, a bad teacher = bad school. It doesn't matter what style, what type of MA. It seems reading the boards though that there are more than the fair share of ***** instructors prentending to teach TKD in America (mainly). Who know though, maybe one day some of us will get the chance to go over there and show them how it should be done.... untill then people should look into schools more before joining, if you're stupid enough to think anyone can promise you a blackbelt then you deserve to have your money taken...

 

[Klondike93]

Games of tag are fun, maybe the next time someone tries to steal your wallet, you should suggest playing a game?

You missed the point on that one.

Just a wild stab in the dark... which as it happens will be something you'll be getting unless you start being more respectfu

Doubtful

My point was that TKD taught me no hand techniques. I learned how to use my feet fine, but when it came to hand skills, it was really lacking. I've moved on to kenpo for that training, and now I'm learning systema as well.
I really don't care at all about WTF or ITF fighters, I'll spar with all of them and hope I hold my own. I've seen good ones out of both organizations.


:asian:

 

[white dragon]

You missed the point on that one.

sorry I ddi get what you meant, I should have put a smiley face after that so you knew that I was kidding!

to be honest I don't care about WTF or ITF, and if the two merge or never do it wouldn't really mean much to me at all, unless I feel the art suffers for it. It just annoys me when people slag off one or the other without ever really trying it.

 

[deadhand31]

ok ok ok.... you guys are really generalizing here..... i've seen exceptions to what you said........


i sparred a guy who's in an ITF school. he never used his hands for anything besides blocking. for the most part he let them stay at his side. he didn't seem worried about getting punched. he still whooped me, though, considering he's a 3rd dan with 18 years experience.

i'm in a WTF school. we ARE prohibited from face contact in competition, but taught that the face is a very good target in self defense. as for punching to the head........ you better have damn good accuracy. punch a guy in the mouth, you'll get their teeth embedded in your hand. the only place you can safely punch a guy on his head is the nose.

my instructor says that he'll let anyone throw a full-power punch to his forehead. mostly because it will teach a painful lesson: the human skull has the density of a bowling ball. if you're going to hit anywhere but the nose, do a palm strike!

 

[Danny]

I wonder while you're dogging WTF as a whole, just how many of your ITF classes or other martial arts for that matter ever train outside of your Dojang? On an uneven surface? Not always in a Dobock? I'm very happy to say that my school does, we're taught more than just "flashy kicks", we DO actually learn hand techniques, if we didn't why would we put so many hand techniques in our patterns?

Actually we do. We train outside every summer. In shorts and a t-shirt plus shoes. That's if you don't count the runs, and the road rage self defense we do. Of course 8 months out of the year it's just to cold to train any where but inside.

Think of say WTF sparring in the sense that you would think of something if you were going to perform it in a competition, such as breaking. You're never going to need to ridge-hand through a load of bricks in the middle of a street fight, sure, but it doesn't mean you won't want to maybe practice before in class... does that make sense?

No your going to smash through a guys rib cage so he doesn't get up, allowing you to deal with his buddies.

i'm in a WTF school. we ARE prohibited from face contact in competition, but taught that the face is a very good target in self defense. as for punching to the head........ you better have damn good accuracy. punch a guy in the mouth, you'll get their teeth embedded in your hand. the only place you can safely punch a guy on his head is the nose.

Common now there are lots of vital spots on the face. Temple, eyes, upward puch to the jaw knock 'em out cold, punch to the side of the jaw dislocate it, base of the skull, etc.

 

[white dragon]

Glad to hear you get to train outside, it's a pretty good experience trying something on an uneven surface, or a wet surface, anything that you're not used to basically to myabe help prepare you more for if the worst happened and you were attacked.

No your going to smash through a guys rib cage so he doesn't get up, allowing you to deal with his buddies.

A good point, but unlike a competition a guy won't stand there and let you trace a line to his rib cage and back several times and let you center yourself as you see people do before they break boards.

Common now there are lots of vital spots on the face. Temple, eyes, upward puch to the jaw knock 'em out cold, punch to the side of the jaw dislocate it, base of the skull, etc.

Couldn't agree more, also just behind ear, along the jaw line hurts like hell if hit right, or just pressed firmly with a finger will stop most people dead in their tracks.

 

[Battousai]

I don't know much anything about these organizations, ITF, WTF, but it seems that there are both good and bad things said about each one. There can be good and bad instructors in both...
The real problem is with the credibility of these organizations. If some people say that they have great instructors, yet other people say that their experience with these organizations leaves alot to be desired, there must be something wrong.
What does it take to be in the ITF, WTF, and why do these organizations have schools of low quality? From what I've read in these posts and in other forums, both ITF and WTF are corrupt organizations.

 

[Danny]

A good point, but unlike a competition a guy won't stand there and let you trace a line to his rib cage and back several times and let you center yourself as you see people do before they break boards.

True, but if you can break 4 boards in ideal conditions, you can probably break at least 2 in less then perfect conditions. Remeber one board is about equal to one rib.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Danny



True, but if you can break 4 boards in ideal conditions, you can probably break at least 2 in less then perfect conditions. Remeber one board is about equal to one rib.

Again, I can't see how 'one board equalling one rib' can be accurate. One is a dried, brittle, flat dead thing and the other is a curved, flexible living thing. Ribs can and do flex. Boards (the ones used for breaking) have significantly less flexion.

Cthulhu

 

[Pyrael]

Originally posted by Danny



True, but if you can break 4 boards in ideal conditions, you can probably break at least 2 in less then perfect conditions. Remeber one board is about equal to one rib.

i agree with Cthulhu, you cant compare bone with wood...

 

[kickyou]

As a Nurse I can tell you that the ribs break very easily,especially when you consider when you hit them you are pushing them in the opposite way that they are curved.They are also only about 1/2 inch thick.They are broken regularly when CPR is performed.In fact it is easier to do CPR when the ribs are broken away from the sternum and it is not hard to do.I have done this several times while performing CPR.I have also broken someone's ribs while in a confrontation and I did not kick them with my full power.

 

[Pyrael]

interesting, can you give an exact amount of pressure the ribs would break under? like i know the ear can be ripped off by like a few pounds or some unit of measure

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by kickyou

As a Nurse I can tell you that the ribs break very easily,especially when you consider when you hit them you are pushing them in the opposite way that they are curved.They are also only about 1/2 inch thick.They are broken regularly when CPR is performed.In fact it is easier to do CPR when the ribs are broken away from the sternum and it is not hard to do.I have done this several times while performing CPR.I have also broken someone's ribs while in a confrontation and I did not kick them with my full power.

I can see it being easy to break a rib away from the sternum, as that should just be a bone-cartilage connection. Is it just as easy to actually snap just a rib?

Cthulhu

 

[white dragon]

if you're ridge-handing somone though wouldn't you mainly be going for the floating ribs, which will bend, also the body will bend to take the force, making it harder to break, right?

Doesn't the Feema (sp? the leg bone, you know what I mean) only take something like 60-90dpi to break? I can EASILY punch through that, let a lone kick through it, but if you did that on someone's real leg I'm pretty sure it wouldn't snap as easily. Not saying it isn't done, hell it's the most common form of death in sport in this country I think. Mainly rugby players, they break the bone and cut the artry and bleed to death. I think it only take about 3 minutes? Kickyou might be able to correct or confirm this. That's actually a reason why an axe kick in tkd aims for the collar bone, as it's easy(ish) to break and will often leave the victim to bleed to death pretty fast. Nice.

 

[arnisador]

I bruised my floating ribs recently--the physician told me they are harder to fracture or break because they are, well, floating.

 

[Cthulhu]

Yes, and the basic structure of a rib is an arch, which is a notoriously strong structure.

As for the femur, those break tests were probably done under controlled conditions, where both ends of the bone were fixed and the pressure was applied directly perpendicular to the long axis of the bone.

In a real fighting situation, the leg will most likely be undergoing some motion, making a perfectly perpendicular strike improbable. Furthermore, when that leg is kicked, it will buckle in some way or another, meaning both ends of the bone will not be in some fixed position.

Cthulhu

 

[Ty K. Doe]

Doesn't the Feema (sp? the leg bone, you know what I mean) only take something like 60-90dpi to break?

I don't think the femur can be broken with Dots Per Inch, maybe psi, Pounds per Square Inch.

 

[Klondike93]

I was told I seperated the cartliage in my left ribs, they took x-rays and couldn't find a break anyways. That was interesting, I couldn't breathe very deep at all. I was having such a hard time breathing I thought I was having a heart attack.

:asian: