Why do some karateka sensei wear hakima?

[TSDTexan]

I'm aware of the heritage of Korean arts (been through more than a few discussions of rather unlikely claims over the years), however what you're training in is identified as a Korean art, grown separate as you note. Again, if you're interested in a Japanese art, a Japanese identity, a Japanese cultural approach, and a Japanese look… why not train in an actual Japanese art? Or, if you'd rather continue to train and teach your Korean art, why not embrace what that means?

Or nor have a false dichotomy.
Nothing stops a fellow from doing both.

I started in a Shotokan School... and have taken private instruction in it for a very long time under SKA instruction.

As mentioned on other threads I did two separate 9 month intros into Aikido. Neither led to a dan ranking.

But your point is an either or.

Learn calculus or algebra
Teach calculus or algebra

Distinction has a value but I disagree with the dichotomy.
Arts can speak and inform each other and my Shotokan training makes my TSD art better.

I have come to a place of And/Or.
Learn calculus and/or algebra.

The only new curriculum ahead of me in TSD is the 150 step/movement Yang Taichi form. A whole other Art within my Art. I am not ready to do Tai Chi as my full on studies.

The rest of the tsd curriculum is deepening in what I already have in my head. It is seeking to perfect rather than seeking to learn.

My Master did not teach a pure TSD art all by itself. He had us doing shikko knee walking up and down the dojo for hours. And kicking and attacking from a sitting position.

These things... I do as well.
Makiwara striking.
Stone hammer conditioning.
These things my students know because of my shotokon studies, and other styles of Karate training.

However what Katas that I know apart from Hwang Kee's TSD as it was taught to american G.I.s are not taught to my students.

Thus I preserve the curriculum of my traditional art of tsd.
And hand it intact to the next generation.

You should read the article "why I stopped practing my style and you should too" by Jesse Enkamp.

Why I Stopped Practicing My Karate Style. (Maybe YOU Should Too?) | KARATE by Jesse

Karate is like the whole of a carrot cake.

TSD is a part of that cake, but only a small slice.
Shotokan another small slice.

At this point.. I am now looking far back to inform my own art's direction. I accept the whole carrot cake as my style, just like Jesse.

Soon I may dare to create a formal tradition of my own.

I am sure you run into DRAJJ-Hapkido arguments alot.

 

[pgsmith]

Soon I may dare to create a formal tradition of my own.

That's perfectly fine, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, if you attempt to embrace Japanese traditions and Japanese traditional clothing within your art, you run the risk of becoming just another ridiculous Japanese wannabe since you obviously don't have the knowledge or background that is needed to go with the traditions.

Don't try to make it into something it isn't just because you think it would be 'cool'.

Just my thoughts, worth what you paid for them.

 

[TSDTexan]

That's perfectly fine, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, if you attempt to embrace Japanese traditions and Japanese traditional clothing within your art, you run the risk of becoming just another ridiculous Japanese wannabe since you obviously don't have the knowledge or background that is needed to go with the traditions.

Don't try to make it into something it isn't just because you think it would be 'cool'.

Just my thoughts, worth what you paid for them.

Hence... my question and why I am doing the research.

 

[ballen0351]

Hence... my question and why I am doing the research.

You asked the question received an answer and then told the folks that answered they are wrong. You seem to be looking more for approval to wear it because you think it's cool. Fine wear what you want but just know you don't actually rate it

 

[TSDTexan]

You asked the question received an answer and then told the folks that answered they are wrong. You seem to be looking more for approval to wear it because you think it's cool. Fine wear what you want but just know you don't actually rate it

Thank you for your input there.
I mean I appreciate your consideration of my ability, my education, and the investment of the greater part of my life and my status within my own school and within my lineage.
It means a lot to me. (Warm friendly smile)

Thank you for your evaluation.
A garment that has no ranking value that is more formal ware then anything else. And I don't "rate" wearing it accordingly.

You realize it is kind of is like telling someone...Hey you're not Scotish you cant wear a kilt and Tux jacket to the ceremonies. Slacks only for you pal.

Or hey you're not German so no lederhosen for you this October.

I guess I shouldn't be using chopsticks, even though I have been using them since I was six. After all I am a westerner.
I am not ethnically asian.

Thank you. You are far wiser than I am. (Warm friendly smile)
I will spend some time thinking about your evaluation.
And what I will wear.

Back to the main idea...

Really would appreciate it if you had some input on why karate people would wear it actually wear it in a classroom, (as a belt already significantly indicates rank.).

That would actually be helpful.

When Chris speaks on KMA and tries to sound like an authority on that specific issue it doesn't carry the same weight as him speaking on Japanese arts that are his area of expertise and experience.

I have nothing more to say about Chris speaking on KMAs.

What I am looking for are answers to questions. This is a place of conversation. Its perfectly reasonable to have a different opinion in a conversation.

 

[ballen0351]

Thank you for your input there.
I mean I appreciate your consideration of my ability, my education, and my status within my own school and within my lineage.
It means a lot to me.

A garment that has no ranking value that is more formal ware then anything else. And I don't "rate" wearing it.

Its like telling someone...Hey you're not Scotish you cant wear a kilt and Tux jacket to the party.

Or hey you're not German so no lederhosen for you.

Really would appreciate it if you had some input on why karate people would wear it. That would actually be helpful.

Correct you don't rate to wear it. If you want to add fancy Japanese pants to your Korean school go for it. Just know you don't rate it and don't make up nonsense fake history or find the 1 example that is far from the norm to justify it to your students. Tell them we are going to wear these cause they look cool

Your question was already answered by Chris but you didn't like his answers because well it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

 

[TSDTexan]

Correct you don't rate to wear it. If you want to add fancy Japanese pants to your Korean school go for it. Just know you don't rate it and don't make up nonsense fake history or find the 1 example that is far from the norm to justify it to your students. Tell them we are going to wear these cause they look cool

Your question was already answered by Chris but you didn't like his answers because well it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

Thank you.

 

[Hyoho]

I think he is overcompensating, but I will let someone else tell him.
View attachment 19536

This photo is of Sekiguchi Komei Sensei. 21st head of the Yamauchi line of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. The reason they use what seem to be overly large weapons is because before the Meiji era there was no standardization of size. originally battle sword were bigger and longer and heavier and..... that's what Yamauchi Ha now use. back in 2007 Sekiguchi sensei was appointed as head of Nihon kobudo Kyokai. He does as we all do dress like that for embu. Because he uses a shinken (live blade) to do kobudo. The majority of the photographs shown of hakama are people in formal dress. not actually practicing. A hakama is a "skirt" worn over a kimono. The split style is a Joba(Horseback) Hakama. In Japan we don't wear 'anything' underneath it. It is from Japan not from Okinawa. Japanese clothing of this type is a uniform not fashion statement. We wear it like morning suit so it's worn at weddings. We wear jeans and a polo shirt as a casual uniform. It is not a sign of high rank or superiority unless someone wish to add that little gem to their practice like stripey gold and red belts and badges. The whole idea is to play down ones community activity of budo and excel in what we show in practice. So.... we all wear the same

 

[TSDTexan]

This photo is of Sekiguchi Komei Sensei. 21st head of the Yamauchi line of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. The reason they use what seem to be overly large weapons is because before the Meiji era there was no standardization of size. originally battle sword were bigger and longer and heavier and..... that's what Yamauchi Ha now use. back in 2007 Sekiguchi sensei was appointed as head of Nihon kobudo Kyokai. He does as we all do dress like that for embu. Because he uses a shinken (live blade) to do kobudo. The majority of the photographs shown of hakama are people in formal dress. not actually practicing. A hakama is a "skirt" worn over a kimono. The split style is a Joba(Horseback) Hakama. In Japan we don't wear 'anything' underneath it. It is from Japan not from Okinawa. Japanese clothing of this type is a uniform not fashion statement. We wear it like morning suit so it's worn at weddings. We wear jeans and a polo shirt as a casual uniform. It is not a sign of high rank or superiority unless someone wish to add that little gem to their practice like stripey gold and red belts and badges. The whole idea is to play down ones community activity of budo and excel in what we show in practice. So.... we all wear the same

This is a wonderful response. Sincere appreciation to you for it.

So is this a daikatana or an ōdachi?

I don't know how to guage the size, to tell if it is three shaku or longer.
As I understand it most ōdachi have been cut down due to laws regarding length in the years 1617, 1626, 1645.

Most were too large to draw from the waist so the were eaither carried upon the back or a servant carried it for a samurai.

But there is a notable exception:
And you mentioning his Ryu is the thing that helped me remember.

The Kōden Enshin-ryu taught by Fumon Tanaka use a special drawing technique for shorter Ōdachi allowing it to be worn upon the waist.

It is called Kōden Iai within the art.

Back to sensai... an amazing sword at any rate.

The last of them seemed to have been made as offerings to shinto shrines. If it is a Nodachi then it is very rare indeed.

In Scotland, where my family is partly from we dont wear "anything" below the garment "skirt" either. Tradition calls them Kilts. Typically coverage these days is between about the navel to about the knee.. some folks prefer mid knee others above the knee cap.

 

[Hyoho]

Last time I saw Komei Sensei he was using sanjaku. A really nice thick meaty blade. he's only a little guy so I guess it looks bigger Tanaka San got help from Otsuyama San who use to belong to the Choken Battojutsu Kageryu. He left some years ago to try and form a breakaway group but still practices on his own.

Komei Sensei is a really nice guy. I could listen to him for hours. Last time we met we were talking about seiza as a method just to train and cut with the hips. He was telling me how his mentors used to tell him that sitting in seiza was for drinking tea and that's how it all should be. But if, if ever one was attacked. one should be able to draw and cut from that position.

 

[Chris Parker]

I gotta say, it's kinda frustrating the way you edit your posts after someone has already answered it… for the record, your original post (that I was responding to) was as follows:

The dobok/gi and dee/obi (used to represent rank) is not Korean but entirely Japanese. The Majority of our forms were Japanese in the 40, 50, 60s. were Japanese.

Later on Korean Karate became significantly more its own thing. New forms to distance from the old and a denial of where Itosu's pinan/heinan was learned from.

The Moo Duk Kwan states Hwang Kee brought them back from Manchuria. .. which could only have happened if He learned from a Japanese or Oki fellow.

You have to admit the founder of the Ji Do Kwon studied directly under G. Funikoshi and was a black belt in the art of shotokan karate.

After I responded, you added the following:

While stuff was added to Hongsoodo and Tangsoodo to make it a KMA please don't pretend it happened apart from Japanese art sources.

The TKD art and the TSD art that we see today, would not exist if Okinawa had not sent Todi to Japan to be taught publically.

Who are you to say that Hakama are not part of my art's history?
Are you a KMA historian with specialization in uniforms of Koreans?
While you are knowledgeable in your area of expertise, a statement posed as a question:
Historical fashion that's not part of your (Korean arts) history?
that you make is conjecture and opinion.

Historical fashion that probably is not part of your (Korean arts) history?

Would be less of a implicitly dogmatic question and more accurate way to phrase that.

All I have to do is find a picture of Korean KarateKa or related arts in the Dojang or fields teaching students in such attire to knock the statement down.

It would be more helpful to answer the OP.
Why do some KarateKa wear Hakama?

In my research I have found KarateKa in Okinaiwa prior to 1958 wearing hakama which, which Is the year some okinaiwans brought Japanese reforms to Karate within a few styles... such as dan / kyu rank.

This suggests that the hakama is not related to Kyu/Dan ranking in Okiainwa at that time or prior.

So let's look at that…

While stuff was added to Hongsoodo and Tangsoodo to make it a KMA please don't pretend it happened apart from Japanese art sources.

The TKD art and the TSD art that we see today, would not exist if Okinawa had not sent Todi to Japan to be taught publicly.

Mate, no-one is denying the heritage of the Korean arts (except, it seems, some of the Koreans themselves…). That doesn't change the fact that they are Korean arts that were adapted in Korea, brought into the Korean culture, given Korean trappings, and developed in Korea.

Who are you to say that Hakama are not part of my art's history?

Dude… you've been down this path with me before… are you sure you want to try it again?

Are you a KMA historian with specialization in uniforms of Koreans?

No… just educated.

While you are knowledgeable in your area of expertise, a statement posed as a question:
Historical fashion that's not part of your (Korean arts) history?
that you make is conjecture and opinion.

No, it's where I question exactly what "historical fashion" you're trying to invoke.

Historical fashion that probably is not part of your (Korean arts) history?

Would be less of a implicitly dogmatic question and more accurate way to phrase that.

And yet, not something I would have said… mainly as it implies that there maybe, possibly was a traditional Japanese (and uniquely Japanese) piece of apparel in the histories of the Korean arts… which there wasn't.

All I have to do is find a picture of Korean KarateKa or related arts in the Dojang or fields teaching students in such attire to knock the statement down.

No, you'd have to find evidence of the hakama as a part of Korean apparel, and part of the historical costume of Korean martial arts. The only Korean art that I've seen use hakama is Gumdo… basically Kendo… and descendent arts (such as Haidong Gumdo)… none of whom claim that the hakama is a Korean form of dress.

It would be more helpful to answer the OP.
Why do some KarateKa wear Hakama?

Er… haven't we answered that, like, many, many times now? Already? Honestly, I have no idea where you're going with much of your posts…

In my research I have found KarateKa in Okinaiwa prior to 1958 wearing hakama which, which Is the year some okinaiwans brought Japanese reforms to Karate within a few styles... such as dan / kyu rank.

Er… yeah? Hakama being part of Japanese formal wear, which had been in Okinawa for a few centuries at that point…

This suggests that the hakama is not related to Kyu/Dan ranking in Okiainwa at that time or prior.

Er… yeah? You do realise that the only person insisting that it's anything to do with ranking at all is, well, you, yeah? Sure, certain arts or organisations might apply it that way… but there's nothing intrinsic about hakama that is related to rank at all… as we've said, like, many, many time now… already.

Okay, onto the next post…

Or nor have a false dichotomy.
Nothing stops a fellow from doing both.

Er… huh? Tex, what we're saying is that, if you're a Korean art, be a Korean art… if you're a Korean art pretending to be a Japanese art because you like the cool dresses worn, but not really even in the Japanese versions of your Korean art in the main, then that doesn't really make sense…

I started in a Shotokan School... and have taken private instruction in it for a very long time under SKA instruction.

Er… okay. Thing is, you're not talking about adding hakama to your Shotokan school (you don't have one)… you're talking about adding it to your Korean system… which is just… odd.

Oh, and weren't you calling it "Shotokan Ryu" a little while back? Yeah… not a good sign…

As mentioned on other threads I did two separate 9 month intros into Aikido. Neither led to a dan ranking.

So… what? You've taken a tiny bit of exposure to a Japanese art that does employ hakama, but never got anywhere near wearing it yourself, and that art is completely and totally unrelated to your Korean art, so… what?

But your point is an either or.

Learn calculus or algebra
Teach calculus or algebra

No, the point is that, when teaching algebra, don't claim your teaching calculus… or dress it up as calculus… by putting it in calculus' fancy flowing dress…

Distinction has a value but I disagree with the dichotomy.
Arts can speak and inform each other and my Shotokan training makes my TSD art better.

So what? That has nothing to do with the idea of putting hakama in a Korean art school.

I have come to a place of And/Or.
Learn calculus and/or algebra.

A Korean art is not a Japanese art… it's not a matter of "and/or"… it's a matter of "is".

The only new curriculum ahead of me in TSD is the 150 step/movement Yang Taichi form. A whole other Art within my Art. I am not ready to do Tai Chi as my full on studies.

Er… the only part of your Japanese-inspired Korean art is a Chinese system's form? Yeah… no wonder you're getting confused in what to wear…

The rest of the tsd curriculum is deepening in what I already have in my head. It is seeking to perfect rather than seeking to learn.

Out of interest… what on earth does this have to do with anything in the thread?

My Master did not teach a pure TSD art all by itself. He had us doing shikko knee walking up and down the dojo for hours. And kicking and attacking from a sitting position.

Er… okay… still not sure of any relevance…

These things... I do as well.
Makiwara striking.
Stone hammer conditioning.
These things my students know because of my shotokon studies, and other styles of Karate training.

Do I point out that chi-ishi (the "stone hammers"), along with much of the other hojo undo equipment, are part of Okinawan systems, not really in Shotokan unless a particular instructor decided to bring them in? Nah… sufficient to say that, well, none of this means anything. You're still teaching a Korean art, with a Korean name, you're just adding in bits of other training methods. That's not an issue… but it doesn't make what you do a Japanese art.

A friend of mine teaches a modern (created in the 50's), Western (created in the UK) system that I would describe as pseudo-Japanese, and quasi-traditional… no matter how much Japanese-themed ideas are added in, weapons, clothing, bowing, nomenclature, or whatever, what he does is not a traditional Japanese art. That doesn't mean it's not good… just that it's not traditional or Japanese. Same here… what you teach is a Korean art. Adding bits and pieces of other cultures methodologies and trappings, including costumes, doesn't change that fact.

However what Katas that I know apart from Hwang Kee's TSD as it was taught to american G.I.s are not taught to my students.

Thus I preserve the curriculum of my traditional art of tsd.
And hand it intact to the next generation.

So… in the end, you just stick to the Korean art when you're teaching? Then that brings us back to the earlier question… why are you concerned about wearing Japanese clothing for your Korean art?

You should read the article "why I stopped practing my style and you should too" by Jesse Enkamp.

Why I Stopped Practicing My Karate Style. (Maybe YOU Should Too?) | KARATE by Jesse

Why?

I'm serious here, what benefit do you envision from my reading of Jesse's article?

Karate is like the whole of a carrot cake.

No, it's not.

TSD is a part of that cake, but only a small slice.

No, it's not.

Shotokan another small slice.

And no, it's not.

At this point.. I am now looking far back to inform my own art's direction. I accept the whole carrot cake as my style, just like Jesse.

Soon I may dare to create a formal tradition of my own.

Yeah… Jesse's wrong. For the record (yeah, I did read it… still not sure why you think I should, though…). And you can absolutely create something you think is a "formal tradition"… although I'm not sure you're aware of exactly what that entails, or infers… but how you go about it will determine how it is received.

I am sure you run into DRAJJ-Hapkido arguments alot.

And… what the hell? You're now bringing another two arts into this?!? Why?

But yeah, I come across the arguments semi-frequently… not sure if you really want to prod at that one right now…

Hence... my question and why I am doing the research.

Then here's where that research should have led you: Korean arts aren't Japanese arts. Most karate systems don't utilise hakama at all… and those that do only employ them on a personal level, or for formal demonstrations in very certain circumstances. The historical photos of karate instructors in hakama are almost entirely formal posed photos (not training, not teaching), and are simply people dressed formally (which happens to be in hakama). But none of this has anything to do with Korean arts, as they're not Japanese… so… kay?

Thank you for your input there.
I mean I appreciate your consideration of my ability, my education, and the investment of the greater part of my life and my status within my own school and within my lineage.
It means a lot to me. (Warm friendly smile)

Eh, I have no idea of your ability, and I don't doubt your investment and dedication. Your education, on the other hand, has been shown to be rather lacking in a number of areas you felt secure about… lashing out in a passive/aggressive fashion doesn't change that, you know…

Oh, and your school and lineage? That would be the Korean one, yeah? The TSD in your name, the one you teach, the one that you've "invested the greater part of your life" for? Kay.

Thank you for your evaluation.
A garment that has no ranking value that is more formal ware then anything else. And I don't "rate" wearing it accordingly.

The point is that you have no real reason to wear it… so wearing it is rather out of place. And the way you seem to want to ignore anything that doesn't tell you you can wear it, to the point of ignoring what the clothing is about at all, in favour of your personal desire for what you want it to be, all means that, yeah, you don't "rate" wearing it.

You realize it is kind of is like telling someone...Hey you're not Scotish you cant wear a kilt and Tux jacket to the ceremonies. Slacks only for you pal.

Or hey you're not German so no lederhosen for you this October.

I guess I shouldn't be using chopsticks, even though I have been using them since I was six. After all I am a westerner.
I am not ethnically asian.

Er… no. Not at all, actually. It's like saying that if you're eating pizza, don't use chopsticks. If you're eating Chinese, on the other hand, you should be using them. At this point, you're eating pizza and wanting to do it with chopsticks… does that make sense?

Thank you. You are far wiser than I am. (Warm friendly smile)
I will spend some time thinking about your evaluation.
And what I will wear.

Hmm…

Back to the main idea...

Really would appreciate it if you had some input on why karate people would wear it actually wear it in a classroom, (as a belt already significantly indicates rank.).

That would actually be helpful.

You've been answered on that time and time again. How many times do you want us to repeat it?

When Chris speaks on KMA and tries to sound like an authority on that specific issue it doesn't carry the same weight as him speaking on Japanese arts that are his area of expertise and experience.

I have nothing more to say about Chris speaking on KMAs.

Oh, boy… do I bring up my background in Rhee Tae-kwon Do now? Or my background in Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate-do? My time and conversation with Hapkido instructors, and Aikido instructors?

Mate, my point is simple. If you can refute what I'm saying, do it. Arguing with no argument doesn't make your side look like the one without weight to it.

What I am looking for are answers to questions. This is a place of conversation. Its perfectly reasonable to have a different opinion in a conversation.

You have been answered. Repeatedly.

This is a wonderful response. Sincere appreciation to you for it.

Honestly, I think you missed much of what Hyoho was saying there…

So is this a daikatana or an ōdachi?

No, it's a katana. You could class it as either if you wanted, though. I'd just call it a katana, myself.

I don't know how to guage the size, to tell if it is three shaku or longer.
As I understand it most ōdachi have been cut down due to laws regarding length in the years 1617, 1626, 1645.

Most were too large to draw from the waist so the were eaither carried upon the back or a servant carried it for a samurai.

Yeah… you're mixing up some less than accurate information there… I mean… there wasn't any clear-cut delineation of sizing… and the idea that "most were too large to draw from the waist" is disputed by a number of systems that, well, draw them from the waist… Hyoho's ryu-ha of Kage Ryu being one of them (for the record, here is the most authoritative site you'll find on it: http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage2.html… you may note that Kage Ryu is a system of battojutsu… sword drawing…). Another would be Shinmuso Hayashizaki Ryu… seen here:

And, for the sake of completion, here is Sekiguchi Soke leading his group:

But there is a notable exception:
And you mentioning his Ryu is the thing that helped me remember.

The Kōden Enshin-ryu taught by Fumon Tanaka use a special drawing technique for shorter Ōdachi allowing it to be worn upon the waist.

It is called Kōden Iai within the art.

Er… the Koden Enshin Ryu (and it's associate Honmon Enshin Ryu) isn't anything to do with Sekiguchi Komei's Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu… so… no.

And, for the record, Takana Fumon is a rather controversial character in Japanese martial arts… the historical veracity of his Enshin Ryu is not overly clear (or accepted in all cases), and a number of his other claims have a number of issues of their own. But, for completion, here's a video of Tanaka Sensei (as well as his daughter) performing an Embu at the memorial of Ueno Takashi a number of years ago. The quality isn't great, but it's a good look at the kind of things found there:

Back to sensai... an amazing sword at any rate.

The last of them seemed to have been made as offerings to shinto shrines. If it is a Nodachi then it is very rare indeed.

Many Odachi were created as votive offerings… they're simply not the most practical items to use in many cases (the systems that use overly large swords don't necessarily use them because of the weapon itself… but what it offers the practitioner in terms of skill building). If you were going onto a battlefield, and you had a hand-held weapon, needing range/length, then you'd have a spear… or perhaps a naginata.

In Scotland, where my family is partly from we dont wear "anything" below the garment "skirt" either. Tradition calls them Kilts. Typically coverage these days is between about the navel to about the knee.. some folks prefer mid knee others above the knee cap.

And, this has exactly what to do with anything here?!?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Screw it, when I open my own school I'm creating my own dress code.

For the Master up through Great-great-grandmaster rank (that's me) the proper attire will be as follows:

For the top, a panda rashguard, because pandas are cool.

For the waist, a kung fu style sash, except with a tartan design depending on rank..(This will be to honor the Scottish ancestry of both myself and the Gracie family)

For the legs, we will wear hakama, but in proper Brazilian fashion the skirt will be NASCARed up with a good selection of colorful sponsor and team patches.

I'm thinking of adding a beret on top in honor of the French side of my family tree, but I'm not sure if that would be too much. What do you guys think?

 

[TSDTexan]

Chris said:
1.
Mate, no-one is denying the heritage of the Korean arts (except, it seems, some of the Koreans themselves…). That doesn't change the fact that they are Korean arts that were adapted in Korea, brought into the Korean culture, given Korean trappings, and developed in Korea.

2.
Er… yeah? Hakama being part of Japanese formal wear, which had been in Okinawa for a few centuries at that point…

3.
Oh, and weren't you calling it "Shotokan Ryu" a little while back? Yeah… not a good sign…

4.
So… in the end, you just stick to the Korean art when you're teaching? Then that brings us back to the earlier question… why are you concerned about wearing Japanese clothing for your Korean art?

5.
Then here's where that research should have led you: Korean arts aren't Japanese arts. Most karate systems don't utilise hakama at all… and those that do only employ them on a personal level, or for formal demonstrations in very certain circumstances. The historical photos of karate instructors in hakama are almost entirely formal posed photos (not training, not teaching), and are simply people dressed formally (which happens to be in hakama). But none of this has anything to do with Korean arts, as they're not Japanese… so… kay?


6.
The point is that you have no real reason to wear it… so wearing it is rather out of place. And the way you seem to want to ignore anything that doesn't tell you you can wear it, to the point of ignoring what the clothing is about at all, in favour of your personal desire for what you want it to be, all means that, yeah, you don't "rate" wearing it.

7.
Er… the Koden Enshin Ryu (and it's associate Honmon Enshin Ryu) isn't anything to do with Sekiguchi Komei's Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu… so… no.




Umm..
Chris, Mate... you are responding to a number of comments that are a response to Ballen who was talking to me, about me.
These comments were not directed your way. If you want to jump in and answer for him... ok I guess.


Response to point 1.

the fact that they are Korean arts that were adapted in Korea, brought into the Korean culture, given Korean trappings, and developed in Korea.

Who brought Karate to Korea first... Koreans or Japanese ?
The historical truth is the Japanese suppressed the native KMAs but allowed the teaching of the JMAs.

Did the Japanese give them Korean trappings at that time?
No. They did not.

Did they modify their training methods to develop KMAs?
No the Japanese did not modify Karate in Korea to develop Korean Arts.

Did Koreans later on decide to modify what what not KMA and integrate that into KMAs?
Allegedly yes. Does that make the root art that the Japanese brought during annexation KMA? No.

Localization to customs was after the fact.

2.
Er… yeah? Hakama being part of Japanese formal wear, which had been in Okinawa for a few centuries at that point…

Yes. But until my recent research I didn't know this as a fact. More hunch and supposition, if even that.


3.
Chris: "Oh, and weren't you calling it "Shotokan Ryu" a little while back? Yeah… not a good sign…"

Me: While not prescriptively correct, it is descriptively correct.
The training hall, or dojo of "Shoto" where Funakoshi taught Karate is now a tradition, or a school of thought, or a discipline (concerning Shoto's karate art).

Here is an example:
There is a formally named branch Kase-ha Shotokan-ryū which "Shotokan Karate" was taught by Kase Ha in France from the late 1960s to the mid-1980s.

4.
Me: Because I am looking into the reason Karate people wear formal Japanese attire at times. Sometimes even while training. Even if that is rare.

5.
Me: So what if their not Korean. I never said the Koreans came up with the idea of wearing Kimono/Hakama/Haori. I think I have said it was Japanese all along.
Oddly enough Okinaiwans didn't come up with wearing it.... it was something they picked up after they were ANNNEXED like Korea was.

7.
Chris: "Er… the Koden Enshin Ryu (and it's associate Honmon Enshin Ryu) isn't anything to do with Sekiguchi Komei's Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu… so… no."

Have you ever had something jog your memory?
Like seeing something familiar, but not exactly the same thing as what you are looking at?

Eishin and Enshin are only one English letter apart. Now tell me O'sensai... is it even remotely possible that a guy could look at one, and have his brain trigger recognition of something related especially if it is something specific like katana?
If we are honest. Yes.

 

[Hyoho]

I think you will find that Koreans always like to put a stripe on uniforms of other countries and call it their own.

Enshin usually describes a circle. For example using enshin ryoku, large circular movements to generate power. A ryu/grade collector is.........a ryu/grade collector. Best not to put video on YouTube and embarrass themselves. The days are long gone when foreigners can't differentiate what is good and bad in M.A. and can actually do this stuff to high degree themselves. Just because people are Japanese does not mean you they good at it. They just like doing it.

 

[TSDTexan]

Screw it, when I open my own school I'm creating my own dress code.

For the Master up through Great-great-grandmaster rank (that's me) the proper attire will be as follows:

For the top, a panda rashguard, because pandas are cool.

For the waist, a kung fu style sash, except with a tartan design depending on rank..(This will be to honor the Scottish ancestry of both myself and the Gracie family)

For the legs, we will wear hakama, but in proper Brazilian fashion the skirt will be NASCARed up with a good selection of colorful sponsor and team patches.

I'm thinking of adding a beret on top in honor of the French side of my family tree, but I'm not sure if that would be too much. What do you guys think?

Simply awesomeness.

I wonder if your french side was trying was trying to kill my french side way back. And same with the Scots.
The gracies have Scotsblood?

Shocked!

However you will find newaza to be significantly harder in Hakama over judogi pants.

I recommended Gi Cutoff and Hemmed shorts for under the Nascar-Hakamas. I specifically recommend a Mushashi Diamond Stitched Black on White layout to go with the panda theme.

That way you can drop drop trow and kick Arze.

Otherwise this what you could look like..

They already have velcro TYPE easy on hakama.. hakama or what seems like hakama that Korean national team wears... and it has racing stripes..

Racing stripes are a must, They make you faster, but get are the decals. Hakama with a big Viagra sponsorship decal are the final boss mode.

Velcro Hakama with racing stripes is Korean!
No velcro. .. is Japanese.

Osss! Ditch the kimono for the rashgard grab a tartan and gi shorts... and ger some ink done on the Velcro hakama.

 

[Chris Parker]

Chris said:
1.
Mate, no-one is denying the heritage of the Korean arts (except, it seems, some of the Koreans themselves…). That doesn't change the fact that they are Korean arts that were adapted in Korea, brought into the Korean culture, given Korean trappings, and developed in Korea.

2.
Er… yeah? Hakama being part of Japanese formal wear, which had been in Okinawa for a few centuries at that point…

3.
Oh, and weren't you calling it "Shotokan Ryu" a little while back? Yeah… not a good sign…

4.
So… in the end, you just stick to the Korean art when you're teaching? Then that brings us back to the earlier question… why are you concerned about wearing Japanese clothing for your Korean art?

5.
Then here's where that research should have led you: Korean arts aren't Japanese arts. Most karate systems don't utilise hakama at all… and those that do only employ them on a personal level, or for formal demonstrations in very certain circumstances. The historical photos of karate instructors in hakama are almost entirely formal posed photos (not training, not teaching), and are simply people dressed formally (which happens to be in hakama). But none of this has anything to do with Korean arts, as they're not Japanese… so… kay?


6.
The point is that you have no real reason to wear it… so wearing it is rather out of place. And the way you seem to want to ignore anything that doesn't tell you you can wear it, to the point of ignoring what the clothing is about at all, in favour of your personal desire for what you want it to be, all means that, yeah, you don't "rate" wearing it.

7.
Er… the Koden Enshin Ryu (and it's associate Honmon Enshin Ryu) isn't anything to do with Sekiguchi Komei's Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu… so… no.

Oh boy…

Umm..
Chris, Mate... you are responding to a number of comments that are a response to Ballen who was talking to me, about me.
These comments were not directed your way. If you want to jump in and answer for him... ok I guess.

You know, it's funny… when you put your comments in a post that's directed to a quote of mine, and you specifically address what I've said, direct your comments towards me, then I'm going to assume that you're intending your comments to be picked up by me… and the majority of this is in response to your late-edited post number 39 (a response to my post), and your response to my answer in your post #41… of course, I also responded to your comments to Ballen (and pgsmith, for the record), but here's the thing…. this is an open forum discussion… you aren't engaged in a one-on-one conversation. Anyone can join in and answer whatever comment that they like.

Response to point 1.

the fact that they are Korean arts that were adapted in Korea, brought into the Korean culture, given Korean trappings, and developed in Korea.

Who brought Karate to Korea first... Koreans or Japanese ?

Well… actually, from almost all sources, it was the Koreans. Who learnt in Japan (and on occasion, Okinawa).

The historical truth is the Japanese suppressed the native KMAs but allowed the teaching of the JMAs.

Suppression of Korean arts… honestly, maybe. The evidence for much in the way of native Korean arts at that time is actually fairly scant… Tae Kyon being the most named, but with wildly varying accounts of what it actually was (the person who claimed to have preserved it also claims that he was taught it as a small child, and only started to claim to have learnt it when he was an old man… which is never the most credible type of claim you can encounter). Additionally, the Japanese martial arts which were "allowed" wasn't a huge number… primarily Kendo (Kumdo) and Judo (Yudo)… although that was a bit later.

The biggest issue with looking into Korean arts' histories is that they have a tendency to deny much of the actual history in favour of putting forth a more propaganda-based story… so it's not an easy thing to discover definitively.

Did the Japanese give them Korean trappings at that time?
No. They did not.

No, the Korean's did.

Did they modify their training methods to develop KMAs?
No the Japanese did not modify Karate in Korea to develop Korean Arts.

The Japanese weren't teaching karate in Korea… the Korean's were.

Did Koreans later on decide to modify what what not KMA and integrate that into KMAs?
Allegedly yes. Does that make the root art that the Japanese brought during annexation KMA? No.

Not so much a "later" thing, it should be noted. And we're not talking about the root here… we're talking about what the arts actually are. Korean arts are not Japanese arts.

Localization to customs was after the fact.

No, as part of the "Korean-ification" of the arts themselves. During the fact.

2.
Er… yeah? Hakama being part of Japanese formal wear, which had been in Okinawa for a few centuries at that point…

Yes. But until my recent research I didn't know this as a fact. More hunch and supposition, if even that.

You asked the question here. One might think that that was because you were hoping to get the answer here, from the membership. You got the answer here. You chose to ignore what you were told in favour of your own research. That's not on us. You were told the reality.

3.
Chris: "Oh, and weren't you calling it "Shotokan Ryu" a little while back? Yeah… not a good sign…"

Me: While not prescriptively correct, it is descriptively correct.

Er… no, it's really not.

The training hall, or dojo of "Shoto" where Funakoshi taught Karate is now a tradition, or a school of thought, or a discipline (concerning Shoto's karate art).

While Shotokan has taken on it's own unique identity, I wouldn't describe it that way, for a number of reasons we've already gone through.

Here is an example:
There is a formally named branch Kase-ha Shotokan-ryū which "Shotokan Karate" was taught by Kase Ha in France from the late 1960s to the mid-1980s.

You do realise that Kase Taiji's system is not Shotokan per se, yeah? And is a unique, individual system itself?

4.
Me: Because I am looking into the reason Karate people wear formal Japanese attire at times. Sometimes even while training. Even if that is rare.

Well, that's not exactly an answer to what I asked… but, if that's the case, how about you, I don't know, listen to when we have repeatedly told you the answer?

5.
Me: So what if their not Korean. I never said the Koreans came up with the idea of wearing Kimono/Hakama/Haori. I think I have said it was Japanese all along.
Oddly enough Okinaiwans didn't come up with wearing it.... it was something they picked up after they were ANNNEXED like Korea was.

Er… are you actually reading what we're posting???

7.
Chris: "Er… the Koden Enshin Ryu (and it's associate Honmon Enshin Ryu) isn't anything to do with Sekiguchi Komei's Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu… so… no."

Have you ever had something jog your memory?
Like seeing something familiar, but not exactly the same thing as what you are looking at?

Hey, what happened to number 6? Oh well…

Eishin and Enshin are only one English letter apart. Now tell me O'sensai... is it even remotely possible that a guy could look at one, and have his brain trigger recognition of something related especially if it is something specific like katana?
If we are honest. Yes.

Sure… but hey, how about we stick to the topic, and maybe keep to not trying to educate people such as Hyoho and myself on these topics? For the record, Hyoho absolutely dwarfs my status and knowledge in these areas… and you still seem to have missed what he's been saying. That said, I'm with him… ryu/grade collectors are just that… if you can pick up on what we're saying there…

 

[TSDTexan]

Oh boy…



You know, it's funny… when you put your comments in a post that's directed to a quote of mine, and you specifically address what I've said, direct your comments towards me, then I'm going to assume that you're intending your comments to be picked up by me… and the majority of this is in response to your late-edited post number 39 (a response to my post), and your response to my answer in your post #41… of course, I also responded to your comments to Ballen (and pgsmith, for the record), but here's the thing…. this is an open forum discussion… you aren't engaged in a one-on-one conversation. Anyone can join in and answer whatever comment that they like.



Well… actually, from almost all sources, it was the Koreans. Who learnt in Japan (and on occasion, Okinawa).



Suppression of Korean arts… honestly, maybe. The evidence for much in the way of native Korean arts at that time is actually fairly scant… Tae Kyon being the most named, but with wildly varying accounts of what it actually was (the person who claimed to have preserved it also claims that he was taught it as a small child, and only started to claim to have learnt it when he was an old man… which is never the most credible type of claim you can encounter). Additionally, the Japanese martial arts which were "allowed" wasn't a huge number… primarily Kendo (Kumdo) and Judo (Yudo)… although that was a bit later.

The biggest issue with looking into Korean arts' histories is that they have a tendency to deny much of the actual history in favour of putting forth a more propaganda-based story… so it's not an easy thing to discover definitively.



No, the Korean's did.



The Japanese weren't teaching karate in Korea… the Korean's were.



Not so much a "later" thing, it should be noted. And we're not talking about the root here… we're talking about what the arts actually are. Korean arts are not Japanese arts.



No, as part of the "Korean-ification" of the arts themselves. During the fact.



You asked the question here. One might think that that was because you were hoping to get the answer here, from the membership. You got the answer here. You chose to ignore what you were told in favour of your own research. That's not on us. You were told the reality.



Er… no, it's really not.



While Shotokan has taken on it's own unique identity, I wouldn't describe it that way, for a number of reasons we've already gone through.



You do realise that Kase Taiji's system is not Shotokan per se, yeah? And is a unique, individual system itself?



Well, that's not exactly an answer to what I asked… but, if that's the case, how about you, I don't know, listen to when we have repeatedly told you the answer?



Er… are you actually reading what we're posting???



Hey, what happened to number 6? Oh well…



Sure… but hey, how about we stick to the topic, and maybe keep to not trying to educate people such as Hyoho and myself on these topics? For the record, Hyoho absolutely dwarfs my status and knowledge in these areas… and you still seem to have missed what he's been saying. That said, I'm with him… ryu/grade collectors are just that… if you can pick up on what we're saying there…

Okey O'sensei. You believe there were no arrests and executions of KMA teachers during annexation ?
That native arts were suppressed with full on death is a fact. There are shrines in Korea mate that bear witness to the fact.

And that Japanese soldiers didn't open the first dojos of Karate?

You need to go check your history.
Cause on this one you are wrong Pal.

Japanese taught karate first in Korea.

Although nationalism has made many koreans scitzophrenic wrt history. Returning koreans who learned in Japan and Okinawa found karate dojos already had sprung up.


As for the rest of your noise. You offer opinion intermixed with a fact or two.

And yes on the issue of students who come for ranks and certificate instead of a way of life are not actually learning their art. Etc. I agree.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And that Japanese soldiers didn't open the first dojos of Karate?

Do you have a cite for that? Most of the accounts I've read have described the various kwans as being founded by Koreans who had trained in Japan. I'm not a KMA history expert, so I may have missed something.

 

[TSDTexan]

Do you have a cite for that? Most of the accounts I've read have described the various kwans as being founded by Koreans who had trained in Japan. I'm not a KMA history expert, so I may have missed something.

The kwans were subsequent to the end of a 35ish year annexation. 1910 to 1945. Three and a half decades.

Every public dojang of KMA was shuttered, and a snitch network was established. Dojangs that weren't burned down were turned into JMA dojos.

Much of this from first hand KMA artists who were there and tild me directly and from individuals whoses parents were 1st hand witnesses who carried the events forward.

I have a korean newpaper article, (somwehere around my office) on one korean dojoang where the records of the school were kept intact through both transitions and name the Japanese sensei who ran the school during the 35 year period.

The fact that dojangs were occupied and converted is common knowledge within many KMAs and can easily be verified.

 

[TSDTexan]

The kwans were subsequent to the end of a 35ish year annexation. 1910 to 1945. Three and a half decades.

Every public dojang of KMA was shuttered, and a snitch network was established. Dojangs that weren't burned down were turned into JMA dojos.

Much of this from first hand KMA artists who were there and tild me directly and from individuals whoses parents were 1st hand witnesses who carried the events forward.

I have a korean newpaper article, (somwehere around my office) on one korean dojoang where the records of the school were kept intact through both transitions and name the Japanese sensei who ran the school during the 35 year period.

The fact that dojangs were occupied and converted is common knowledge within many KMAs and can easily be verified.

Then you have all the TKDs dojangs that were built 1910-1945... who built these?
Koreans... for whom?