Why do so many Filipinos love the "Porty-Pibe"?

[arnisandyz]

1911 to be exact.

I remember years ago when I got my first Glock, my dad telling me I should have got a "Porty-Pibe" instead of that "plastic". Thinking about it, almost ALL of my uncles who shoot, have and prefer the 1911? It took me a while, but now I prefer it as well!

I know it goes back to the American occupation in the Philippines, but why the 45 above all other weapons like Springfield rifle or the M1 Carbine or the Tommy gun or the 38 revolver? I'm guessing for the longest time American culture was the "in-thing". We used to send back boxes (Balikbayan Box) of old and new clothes, mostly designer label things and blue jeans to my relatives who still live there. I guess Filipino's love of firearms and American things lead to the 1911 just like Harleys and old Chevys.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I used to be totally disinterested in anything less than .45 till two things happened: 1) I actually read the stopping power charts and 2) I started having to care more about money. After doing more homework my only requirement in primary defensive caliber is that it be no *smaller* than 9mm.

Where the issue of 9mm vs. .45 stopping power has its roots is in incidents occurring during both World Wars. But the thing to remember is that at that time all that existed for either caliber was FMJ or "ball" ammo. With modern jacketed hollowpoint ammunition the whole game changes. I'm not sure what you may have heard in the media, but JHP's are actually more desirable--in fact, safer--than FMJs defensively because of the 2 tasks they perform:

1) expansion of the round on impact will deliver more nerve/tissue shock resulting in a faster stop and only as few wounds as possible( assuming two to three hits per customer) where FMJ rounds can impact and, due to their design, slip right through said customer and leave *two* wounds for each shot, and since the impact energy bled off and kept going, one would then require more shots to stop the threat to the point that by the time the rounds have their desired effect it could very well be too late, which leads us to the second advantahge

2) expansion of the round on impact gets rid of the problem of overpenetration( not as great with .45 ball but out of control with 9mm ball). That means that the threat, and ONLY the threat, is in danger of being shot.

If you want to use 9mm defensively, you *have* to use JHPs, the overpenetration and lack of stopping power of 9mm ball just isnt worth the risk to self and others. .45 ball you *can* use but it's only advisable if ball is all you have.

Speaking as a firearms instructor who has, at one time or another, owned pistols chambered in all three, I'll give you the three calibers in a nutshell:

9mm is about the same diameter bullet as .38 special and .357 magnum in a shorter cartridge case and leaves the muzzle at about 1300 feet/second. That's about the upper limit on velocity if you want to control the pistol, the smaller round helps with this.

.40 Smith and Wesson came about in 1991 as a cut down version of the 10mm Auto cartridge, which is difficult enough to control that of about 10 manufacturers of 10mm pistols only ONE model is still in production anymore (Glock 20) pistols chambered in this cartridge can still have a respectable capacity(only about 2 rounds less than its 9mm cousins, the cartridge being only a millimeter wider) but an average .40 leaves the muzzle at about 1700 feet/second which for any but the most dedicated is more recoil than necessary for the job IMO.

.45 ACP came about in 1910/1911 as the cartridge to be used in the US Army's first service automatic, which after torturous testing was adopted in 1911 and despite a brief switchoff in the late 80s to the 9mm Beretta 92 as a general-issue sidearm( that's about over) remains in use to this very day in various incarnations. The Marine Corps' Expeditionary Unit just adopted Kimber 1911's, LAPD SWAT likewise, the FBI SWAT team selected Springfield Armory 1911s in 1998, and the Navy SEALS, Delta and I believe the Rangers all have the H&K SOCOM as a .45 ACP pistol, with the SEALs' 9mm choices being the H&K USP and the SIG P229.

The reason it's been around so long is because it works and works well. The larger round, and the (relatively) slow muzzle velocity of about 800 feet/second ( That's right--.45 kicks LESS than .40 !! ) make it a powerfiul *and* inherently more accurate cartridge, with the only "downside" in modern times being a necessarily learger pistol frame ( not as comfortable to carry for smaller folks) and average mag capacity--up till very recently the average .45 pistol's mag capacity was no more than 8 rounds plus one in the pipe. With Para Ordnance, Glock and Springfield Armory's XD series , that capacity doubled, and with Glock's introduction of the .45 GAP round(.45 ACP ballistics in a smaller cartridge length and therefore .45 rounds in a 9mm frame) those problems are on their way out as well.

 

[arnisandyz]

Great info Andy! Didn't mean to start another caliber debate, but what you wrote is pretty much it in a nutshell. I prefer and enjoy shooting 45ACP, I carry a 9mm because its a compromise of "enough" stopping power in a small package that has good capacity. I also agree that 45 is milder/funner/more enjoyable to shoot than a 40SW. I had the opportunity to get a 40SW doublestack that holds 16 (18 with new baseplates) +1 rounds and decided to get the 45 version that holds 14 (16 with baseplates) +1 for IPSC competition. I reload for 45ACP and I'm already setup for it. The benefit of 2 more rounds wasn't enough for me to get the 40.

I just threw the Filipino thing out there because it seems like in my experience 9 out of 10 Filipinos I talk to and shoot with prefer the 1911! In reality the 1911 crosses cultural barriers and just a damn fine design that can be appreciated by all. I heard that our military will be adopting some form of 45ACP launcher to replace the M9.

 

[Bigshadow]

My conceal carry pistol is a Smith & Wesson 4506. It is a bit big for conceal carry, but I can hide it pretty well with my shoulder holster or pancake high ride holster.

I love the .45. It is slow, but packs a wallop! My self defense bullets are JHPs.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

My only two pistols right now( money reasons) are my Glock 17 and Glock 26 ( full size 9 and subcompact 9, respectively). Full size( bigger m17 rd mag , longer bearrel/grip and therefore more accuracy) in winter, subbie( small size, and feeds the BIGGER mags for the G17--welcome bonus ) in a smartcarry in spring/summer.

 

[Grenadier]

1911 to be exact.

I remember years ago when I got my first Glock, my dad telling me I should have got a "Porty-Pibe" instead of that "plastic". Thinking about it, almost ALL of my uncles who shoot, have and prefer the 1911? It took me a while, but now I prefer it as well!

I enjoy all calibers, and all sorts of guns, so I can provide a bit of a general, mostly unbiased view.

Many people (and NOT just Filipinos) enjoy the .45 ACP for several reasons.

1) It's actually not that hard kicking of a load, unless you're using the hottest +P loads out there. Most of the time, you're slinging a subsonic 230 grain bullet to about the mid 800's in terms of fps. The kick that you feel is more of a heavier, blunter, push, as opposed to the sharp strike of a hot .40.

2) It's an inherently accurate load. You're not transversing any sonic barriers, and the pressure is very low (about 1/2 that of a 9 mm or .40).

3) If you ever get into loading your own ammo, you'll find that this is a very nice cartridge to work with. You have ample powder capacity in the casing, and a plethora of excellent, faster burning powders in which you can use. You can also use medium to medium slow powders to get some real screamers (Power Pistol, HS-6). With the right powders, you can easily push a 185 grainer to about 1100 fps, which isn't too far away from 10 mm performance.

On the other side of the coin, you can make all sorts of lightly recoiling plinking rounds for the .45 ACP, and that these will have enough power to cycle the slide. It's a very forgiving cartridge.


Why do people like the 1911?

1) Ergonomics. Many folks will swear that once you grip a nice 1911, that the angle is just right.

2) Single action trigger, ability to carry cocked and locked.

3) Customization. No other handgun has nearly as many customizations available. There are all sorts of barrel makers, such as Barsto, Jarvis, et al., that can produce a snugly fitted barrel that will give you some wonderful accuracy. There are all sorts of trigger jobs that are available that will not compromise functionality. All sorts of compensators, etc.

The 1911 platform is what you make of it.



Now, all of this being said, what do I carry? My 9 mm Glocks...

 

[SUPERMAN .45]

My daily carry is an STI .45 and my back up gun is a Armscor commander .45, I like the .45's because of the stopping power and reliability.

 

[Cruentus]

A friend and I just visited our Balintawak teachers house (Manong Ted Buot). He had his daughters Godparents and friends over; 2 of them were students who trained with our teacher back in the original club (watch shop in Cebu).

On top of stick training, they were also avid shooters. Manong Ted was an instructor/Col. in what would be the equivalent of the National Guard.

It was really fun to hear the stories from back then. THey talked about the .45 and the stopping power, and how it was ironic that Filipino's live the .45 so much, yet it was used too stop them! They talked about the Muslims who would run "amok", and that the reason they were so hard to kill was because they would take a drug (like a PCP type equivelant) so they would be harder to take down. They talked about the old shooting range, gun smith and holster smith, hiding weapons during "martial law" and some of the old stories.

Their firearm of choice was the Colt .45 1911 from WWII era. They also had Carbines and such, however.

Anyways, it was awesome to hear the old stories. Just thought I would share...

Paul

 

[lhommedieu]

THey talked about the .45 and the stopping power, and how it was ironic that Filipino's live the .45 so much, yet it was used too stop them! They talked about the Muslims who would run "amok", and that the reason they were so hard to kill was because they would take a drug (like a PCP type equivelant) so they would be harder to take down.

This brings to mind the old story about the U.S. Army switching to the .45 after they found that the .38 round was not stopping Filipinos who had run amok. The story is true but only insofar as the Army switched to a version of the Colt .45 revolver. I participated in a great thread about this bit of history and will try to dig it up again.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Grenadier]

This brings to mind the old story about the U.S. Army switching to the .45 after they found that the .38 round was not stopping Filipinos who had run amok. The story is true but only insofar as the Army switched to a version of the Colt .45 revolver. I participated in a great thread about this bit of history and will try to dig it up again.

I may be able to shed some light on this, digging up a few exceprts from my favorite reloading manual, "Metallic Cartridge Reloading, 3rd Edition" by M.L. McPherson.

The .45 Colt cartridge was the most powerful handgun cartridge back then, and could sling a 255 grain slug to well over 800 fps; very impressive by those day's standards, and such performance in a handgun wasn't eclipsed until the advent of the .357 magnum revolver in 1935.

The original Colt .45 revolvers, though, were of rather flimsy construction (by today's standards), and the original cases were made out of pure copper, not brass. Thus, with the combination of the two, the pressure was kept at a very mild level. Not surprisingly, the pressure of the average "standard" .45 Colt load is still kept to about 3/4th that of a comparable .45 ACP load.

With modern materials, and stronger construction, you can really unlock the performance of the .45 Colt cartridge. There's a separate section in this book that deals with .45 Colt +P loads, that are only to be used in Ruger revolvers or T/C Contender handguns, and that these are loaded closer to about 10% higher pressures than a comparable .45 ACP load.

Just as an example, a Colt .45 +P load can launch that 230 grain lead slug to over 1200 fps, whereas the fastest 230 grain .45 ACP load I can find in my manual is a 230 grain bullet being launched to 981 fps at +P pressures.

Impressive indeed, even by today's standards. Just don't try to use such loads in your older Colt .45 revolver, or any such replica, without consulting with the manufacturer.

 

[lhommedieu]

I may be able to shed some light on this, digging up a few exceprts from my favorite reloading manual, "Metallic Cartridge Reloading, 3rd Edition" by M.L. McPherson.

The .45 Colt cartridge was the most powerful handgun cartridge back then, and could sling a 255 grain slug to well over 800 fps; very impressive by those day's standards, and such performance in a handgun wasn't eclipsed until the advent of the .357 magnum revolver in 1935.

The original Colt .45 revolvers, though, were of rather flimsy construction (by today's standards), and the original cases were made out of pure copper, not brass. Thus, with the combination of the two, the pressure was kept at a very mild level. Not surprisingly, the pressure of the average "standard" .45 Colt load is still kept to about 3/4th that of a comparable .45 ACP load.

With modern materials, and stronger construction, you can really unlock the performance of the .45 Colt cartridge. There's a separate section in this book that deals with .45 Colt +P loads, that are only to be used in Ruger revolvers or T/C Contender handguns, and that these are loaded closer to about 10% higher pressures than a comparable .45 ACP load.

Just as an example, a Colt .45 +P load can launch that 230 grain lead slug to over 1200 fps, whereas the fastest 230 grain .45 ACP load I can find in my manual is a 230 grain bullet being launched to 981 fps at +P pressures.

Impressive indeed, even by today's standards. Just don't try to use such loads in your older Colt .45 revolver, or any such replica, without consulting with the manufacturer.

Thank you very much. Here is the thread that I remembered: click here.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Cruentus]

This brings to mind the old story about the U.S. Army switching to the .45 after they found that the .38 round was not stopping Filipinos who had run amok. The story is true but only insofar as the Army switched to a version of the Colt .45 revolver. I participated in a great thread about this bit of history and will try to dig it up again.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Cool. I like reading the historical stuff.

 

[Sigung86]

I am relatively new to the law enforcement field, but have spent a good deal of my life around firearms. It is interesting to me to see the usage chart that is in my mind's eye. (I'm speaking of off duty carry choices here). Many of the "youngsters" go for the Sigs and the "whatever is new and hot looking" sidearms. While many of the guys/gals, who have been there for a very long time carry different versions of the .45.

Personally, my weapons of choice for personal protection to carry, and in no particular order are the 1911 .45, the Glock Model 22 .40, and the old trusty wheel gun, an S&W, Model 19, .357 with a 2.5 inch barrel.

The real big drawback to the S&W is that I can't find a left handed Fobus holster for it.