Good Aikido can be very, very effective. :ultracool
Enjoy what you do and train hard.
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
Enjoy what you do and train hard.
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
Why do people bash Aikido?
- Thread starter Buddha1
- Start date
This question is most interesting. But, first, let me (very) briefly introduce myself.
As a martial artist, I have studied Okinawa Kenpo Karate for many years, as well as TKD. I have much regard for the martial arts, and, as such, I'm always researching, continuing to understand the philosophies and principles of various systems.
Onto the question:
What type of opinion constitutes bashing? I think there is a difference between bashing and constructive criticism, both of which have been absent, thus far, in this discussion...until this very posting.
Going back to my training (you'll see why in a moment), the reason I stopped is twofold: 1) I became impatient because my training remained stagnant for quite some time; and 2) I realized most of what I learned was all-for-sought and unapplicable to actual self-defense. Kata is no different than shadow boxing -- it is a dance. Board breaking doesn't teach you how to fight and is actually quite damaging over a period of time. Moderate sparring is ultimately futile, if there is no timing and movement coupled along -- not to mention the lack of full contact sparring. The underlying criticism of what I learned in Karate and TKD (which is really no different than Karate; even the katas are the same) is the student is indrectly taught that his or her opponent will attack in the same manner in which he or she trains.
Again, I did learn some invaluable skills, such as some knife and gun disarms and joint manipulation. The most valuable skill -- if you want to label it as such -- I learned is what is NOT effective, as I discussed above. Still, those skills which I learned above are somewhat tainted, for I don't feel I am sufficiently able to protect myself in a real encounter -- there is more to fighting than the conflict stage. Anyway, I sense I'm rambling and will move on.
Actually, what I essentially described was Aikido...sort of. I witnessed an Aikido class, because I had reservations about joining. Those reservations quickly ballooned into a collective and decisive "no". Besides the fact that, like many eastern arts, the instructor ("master") always has the upper hand and instills a sense of superiority to their insubordinates (read: the students), the travesty of arts like traditional Karate and Aikido is the lack of live training.
It doesn't matter if you've practiced for 10 years, every day -- no matter the art, JKD, Kali, Gung Fu, BJJ, Krav Maga -- you will not be a good fighter if you don't have a sense of motion, timing, and full resistance training. The way you train is the way you fight. If you've never been hit or pummeled in training (full resistance with the proper gear) or in a street fight, you cannot be prepared for the feeling of being in an actual fight. Practicing dead, static patterns does not prepare you. In many ways, it's analogous to chess.
How do you get better at chess? Well you play against live opponents as many as times as it takes. You might play 1000 games, let's say -- that's live training. Imagine you try to get better by working on the exact same opening with your opponent. You move the left-most pawn, he moves the right-post pawn. You move the right-most pawn, he moves the second pawn from the left. You move the knight, he moves his knight. Now you repeat this opening, say, 40,000 times -- that's a dead, static pattern. No matter how many times you repeat that opening, your opening will never be any better because you're not playing against a live opponent.
Now I'll tell you straight that I'd recommend Aikido over Karate any day of the week. There are some very effective moves in Aikido and the art is, overall, more effective than what I studied. But I'd only recommend it to experienced martial artists, those who have an understanding of actual fighting through live training and wish to add Aikido to their repertoire. For a beginner, or anyone, who has no sense of being in an actual fight (and I have and it's a long story (in short, I lost) that I will save for another day), I simply cannot recommend it. And that goes for the arts I studied or any art that excludes live training.
As a martial artist, I have studied Okinawa Kenpo Karate for many years, as well as TKD. I have much regard for the martial arts, and, as such, I'm always researching, continuing to understand the philosophies and principles of various systems.
Onto the question:
What type of opinion constitutes bashing? I think there is a difference between bashing and constructive criticism, both of which have been absent, thus far, in this discussion...until this very posting.
Going back to my training (you'll see why in a moment), the reason I stopped is twofold: 1) I became impatient because my training remained stagnant for quite some time; and 2) I realized most of what I learned was all-for-sought and unapplicable to actual self-defense. Kata is no different than shadow boxing -- it is a dance. Board breaking doesn't teach you how to fight and is actually quite damaging over a period of time. Moderate sparring is ultimately futile, if there is no timing and movement coupled along -- not to mention the lack of full contact sparring. The underlying criticism of what I learned in Karate and TKD (which is really no different than Karate; even the katas are the same) is the student is indrectly taught that his or her opponent will attack in the same manner in which he or she trains.
Again, I did learn some invaluable skills, such as some knife and gun disarms and joint manipulation. The most valuable skill -- if you want to label it as such -- I learned is what is NOT effective, as I discussed above. Still, those skills which I learned above are somewhat tainted, for I don't feel I am sufficiently able to protect myself in a real encounter -- there is more to fighting than the conflict stage. Anyway, I sense I'm rambling and will move on.
Actually, what I essentially described was Aikido...sort of. I witnessed an Aikido class, because I had reservations about joining. Those reservations quickly ballooned into a collective and decisive "no". Besides the fact that, like many eastern arts, the instructor ("master") always has the upper hand and instills a sense of superiority to their insubordinates (read: the students), the travesty of arts like traditional Karate and Aikido is the lack of live training.
It doesn't matter if you've practiced for 10 years, every day -- no matter the art, JKD, Kali, Gung Fu, BJJ, Krav Maga -- you will not be a good fighter if you don't have a sense of motion, timing, and full resistance training. The way you train is the way you fight. If you've never been hit or pummeled in training (full resistance with the proper gear) or in a street fight, you cannot be prepared for the feeling of being in an actual fight. Practicing dead, static patterns does not prepare you. In many ways, it's analogous to chess.
How do you get better at chess? Well you play against live opponents as many as times as it takes. You might play 1000 games, let's say -- that's live training. Imagine you try to get better by working on the exact same opening with your opponent. You move the left-most pawn, he moves the right-post pawn. You move the right-most pawn, he moves the second pawn from the left. You move the knight, he moves his knight. Now you repeat this opening, say, 40,000 times -- that's a dead, static pattern. No matter how many times you repeat that opening, your opening will never be any better because you're not playing against a live opponent.
Now I'll tell you straight that I'd recommend Aikido over Karate any day of the week. There are some very effective moves in Aikido and the art is, overall, more effective than what I studied. But I'd only recommend it to experienced martial artists, those who have an understanding of actual fighting through live training and wish to add Aikido to their repertoire. For a beginner, or anyone, who has no sense of being in an actual fight (and I have and it's a long story (in short, I lost) that I will save for another day), I simply cannot recommend it. And that goes for the arts I studied or any art that excludes live training.
Darren Brooks
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It's too bad we choose to judge without wondering why we are so affected by what we are judging. I have never seen an exception to the rule that, what irritates us the most can be our greatest teacher. If we allow ourselves to reflect upon what is "coming up" for us inside our minds in response to what we judge, well, as Bruce Lee said in Enter the Dragon: "It is like a finger pointing to the moon. Don't stare at the finger or you will miss all of that heavenly glory!".
I have studied Aikido for many years - my first teacher was Akira Tohei Shihan, then Keith Moore Sensei and Fumio Toyoda Shihan, and then Andrew Sato Sensei.
One reason people "bash" Aikido is perhaps to them it looks like a choreographed dance; two partners working together. The one being thrown (uke) often seems to "go with" the thrower (nage). With beginners and those who have lost the beginners' mind, this is too often true. I have often seen practitioners who just make circles and arm movements and hope their uke will roll and fall for them without considering more deeply why the movements work.
And while each of us must find our own answers, uke can assist nage to learn. In other words, it is uke's job to assist nage to learn - but with resistance and encouragement according to nage's level of training.
I have also studied Taiji and other arts for years, and I can tell you such lack of mindfulness occurs in all those arts as well. I think it is not the art, but the mind of the practitioner which must be challenged. Perhaps Aikido itself plays the role of nage to our minds, which must "take a fall" and be open to learning.
Well, now that I have said all that, there is one thing I myself would like to "bash" about my own Aikido experience.
I often felt trapped and bored during classes because after so many years of training in various martial arts, dance and movement therapies, I wanted to allow my movements to be more intuitive and in accordance with my own nature. However, the other advanced students I would practice with would discourage this, saying I had to do the techniques the way their teacher said they should be done, or some similar reason.
There seems to be too much emphasis on trying to keep the Aikido "pure" or some such nonesense. I've been to seminars taught by several of O Sensei's students, and my first Aikido instructor, Tohei Shihan, was one of O Sensei's students and personal assistants. None of these teachers taught the same way O Sensei taught them. How could they if they were to teach the art from their own truths, from their heart?
My Taiji teacher, Kimball Paul, once said, "Do your own Taiji!" Yes, O Sensei came to Aikido through much hard practice of other arts, but what really made this art of his so amazing was the divine inspiration he recieved to make it his own and something different in the world. For example, if martial arts are truly more about stopping the fighting in the world and building character and wisdom, and challenging oneself, then why has only Aikido discontinued the use of tournaments?
In many ways, then, Aikido is a rather socially evolved art, yet I hope its instructors and practitioners alike do not forget the joy they felt when they first began their training; the dojo can be a wondrous, Willy Wonka-like laboratory of experiment and reflection.
All great thinkers were considered crazy and challenged or "bashed" by their peers. Just as in any other art, such as music or painting or dance, the styles we practice today were often synthesized by one person who withstood the bashings of others to express his or her own divine spark.
here's to beginners' mind!!
darren
I have studied Aikido for many years - my first teacher was Akira Tohei Shihan, then Keith Moore Sensei and Fumio Toyoda Shihan, and then Andrew Sato Sensei.
One reason people "bash" Aikido is perhaps to them it looks like a choreographed dance; two partners working together. The one being thrown (uke) often seems to "go with" the thrower (nage). With beginners and those who have lost the beginners' mind, this is too often true. I have often seen practitioners who just make circles and arm movements and hope their uke will roll and fall for them without considering more deeply why the movements work.
And while each of us must find our own answers, uke can assist nage to learn. In other words, it is uke's job to assist nage to learn - but with resistance and encouragement according to nage's level of training.
I have also studied Taiji and other arts for years, and I can tell you such lack of mindfulness occurs in all those arts as well. I think it is not the art, but the mind of the practitioner which must be challenged. Perhaps Aikido itself plays the role of nage to our minds, which must "take a fall" and be open to learning.
Well, now that I have said all that, there is one thing I myself would like to "bash" about my own Aikido experience.
I often felt trapped and bored during classes because after so many years of training in various martial arts, dance and movement therapies, I wanted to allow my movements to be more intuitive and in accordance with my own nature. However, the other advanced students I would practice with would discourage this, saying I had to do the techniques the way their teacher said they should be done, or some similar reason.
There seems to be too much emphasis on trying to keep the Aikido "pure" or some such nonesense. I've been to seminars taught by several of O Sensei's students, and my first Aikido instructor, Tohei Shihan, was one of O Sensei's students and personal assistants. None of these teachers taught the same way O Sensei taught them. How could they if they were to teach the art from their own truths, from their heart?
My Taiji teacher, Kimball Paul, once said, "Do your own Taiji!" Yes, O Sensei came to Aikido through much hard practice of other arts, but what really made this art of his so amazing was the divine inspiration he recieved to make it his own and something different in the world. For example, if martial arts are truly more about stopping the fighting in the world and building character and wisdom, and challenging oneself, then why has only Aikido discontinued the use of tournaments?
In many ways, then, Aikido is a rather socially evolved art, yet I hope its instructors and practitioners alike do not forget the joy they felt when they first began their training; the dojo can be a wondrous, Willy Wonka-like laboratory of experiment and reflection.
All great thinkers were considered crazy and challenged or "bashed" by their peers. Just as in any other art, such as music or painting or dance, the styles we practice today were often synthesized by one person who withstood the bashings of others to express his or her own divine spark.
here's to beginners' mind!!
darren
jujutsu_indonesia
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Buddha1 said:
there are two kinds of people who bash martial arts. The first is people whom are not so nice, they will insult anything that does not conform with their world view. do not worry about these kind of people.
the second type are people who wants effective self-defense, and they consider aikido (and aiki jujutsu) training a bit lacking due to steep learning curve or antiquated training methods.
And don't forget all those little people who wants to be Steven Seagal, joined an Aikido Dojo, and become grossly disappointed because they have to learn Shikko, seiza rei, japanese terminology, etc, while all they want is to beat up people and get all the beautiful girls.
I say, to each their own. If Aikido/Aiki Jujutsu training does not fit their "world view", I say let them be. The most important thing is to enjoy training, in whatever art we feels like doing. I like doing karate and jujutsu/aiki jujutsu. I don't need to beat up people like Steven Seagal in his movies. I don't want to possess supernatural powers like Mr. Uyeshiba. I just want to go to the dojo, meet old friends, and have fun training.
hapki68
Orange Belt
I bash aikido because it's pointless and doesn't work.
(Just kidding! sheesh)
Actually, I started out in aikido in college and loved it. Being a poor (financially) student, I couldn't afford to continue so I stopped years ago. I decided to start back up with the MA about a year ago (when I got sick of the gym) and chose hapkido -- aikido's meaner younger brother -- because the school was closer to my house.
I think a lot of people bash aikido because:
1. It's more elegant and "artsy" and, therefore, harder for the "just punch em" crowd to figure out, and
2. Aikidoka have that air of intellectualism that a lot of the harder styles feel self-conscious of. (What other style has so much written about it?) I'm gonna take a lot of flack for this... but I think it's like when the blue collar crowd bashes the "ivory tower" set.
So keep it up, "Aikidokans".... I'm a big fan.
Just be careful not to cross your large circles with hapkido's small ones.
Hapki
(Just kidding! sheesh)
Actually, I started out in aikido in college and loved it. Being a poor (financially) student, I couldn't afford to continue so I stopped years ago. I decided to start back up with the MA about a year ago (when I got sick of the gym) and chose hapkido -- aikido's meaner younger brother -- because the school was closer to my house.
I think a lot of people bash aikido because:
1. It's more elegant and "artsy" and, therefore, harder for the "just punch em" crowd to figure out, and
2. Aikidoka have that air of intellectualism that a lot of the harder styles feel self-conscious of. (What other style has so much written about it?) I'm gonna take a lot of flack for this... but I think it's like when the blue collar crowd bashes the "ivory tower" set.
So keep it up, "Aikidokans".... I'm a big fan.
Just be careful not to cross your large circles with hapkido's small ones.
Hapki
Hey Patrick my friendhapki68 said:I bash aikido because it's pointless and doesn't work.
(Just kidding! sheesh)
Actually, I started out in aikido in college and loved it. Being a poor (financially) student, I couldn't afford to continue so I stopped years ago. I decided to start back up with the MA about a year ago (when I got sick of the gym) and chose hapkido -- aikido's meaner younger brother -- because the school was closer to my house.
I think a lot of people bash aikido because:
1. It's more elegant and "artsy" and, therefore, harder for the "just punch em" crowd to figure out, and
2. Aikidoka have that air of intellectualism that a lot of the harder styles feel self-conscious of. (What other style has so much written about it?) I'm gonna take a lot of flack for this... but I think it's like when the blue collar crowd bashes the "ivory tower" set.
So keep it up, "Aikidokans".... I'm a big fan.
Just be careful not to cross your large circles with hapkido's small ones.
Hapki
I am gonna get quite shouty with you for maintaining that Aikidoka are arty intellectual types pffft... I will say if we Aikidoka are arty and intellectual just by virtue of all the air in our hakama then you Hapkidoka are lethal and skillful by virtue of the quilting detail on your gi jackets ha!Actually in all seriousness I find the Aikido Intelligensia are those who generally give their 101% effort from their leatherette armchairs (or forums... ahem)... for the rest of us right down to the simpletons like myself well getting the sleeves rolled up and throwing each other around a little soon puts to rest any esoteric mythology surrounding the art and I think those who try to maintain this charade of being practitioners of a "superior" art should be rounded up and thrown the local talking shop... and what is a talking shop anyway?? ha!
I understand what you mean but this is a preconception my friend.. though I am certain it does not count that we read a little Aristotle and chat metaphysics after we say our arigatos
Be good and keep your pants tied!
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna
Kensai
Black Belt
Buddha1 said:
Same as why they bash any other martial art, ignorance. Some people will always have closed minds, and I don't see it as my role to open it for them. Their choice in life. At the same time, it's also not our role to defend a specific art, it only starts an argument with an idiot, and the trouble with that is, that they always drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Brother John
Senior Master
Ignorance!Buddha1 said:
Your Brother
John
Robert Lee
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Aikido does take a high skill level to get it off. perhaps some bash it because of this. I have a few friends who are 4th 5th and 6th dan Aikdo. ! I think is very good another Ok and 1 is poor in getting it off. Now that person if the distance is good can get it working. I mean over a 6 foot spread which is not real aspect. The 1 that I believe is really good He can use his Akido at most ranges. But he has really put down his training time. I think aikido just needs more training time to find your use of it. Others like to see fast results. you do not get that with akido randori takes some training to understand The feel I have trained a little Akido and aikijutsu. No belts but it has Some movements that will benifit the learning. And as said someone that can get there akido off it works just have to train it long enough to do it.
pstarr
Master Black Belt
It might be well to consider that the founder of aikido, Morihei Uyeshiba, was one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) martial arts masters of the last century.
Examine how he trained and what he espoused.
Examine how he trained and what he espoused.
Kenpojujitsu3
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pstarr said:
Unfortunately "greatness" is a matter of opinion as ther is no clearly delineated standard for measuring greatness. As long as you have opinions there will be some bad ones, hense why Aikido (like every other art) gets bashed.
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Amen to that! Look at what goes on here in MT alone. Members of the same style destroy each other constantly! So it's easy to pick on an outside art.
Kenpojujitsu3
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Hand Sword said:
Too true.
Buddha1 said:
Because all too often, it is taught very unrealistically. Too many hand grabs and not enough punching or kicking. Not that hand grabs aren't great teaching tools, but not many people will be grabbed like that on the street. When people see an aikido demo where all the attacks are hand grabs its understandable why they would think that's all we train against. And any group that does that is not an effective martial art.
If they see good aikido and still bash it, well then they're just ignorant.
Kenpojujitsu3
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Devin said:
Agreed.
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Devin said:
Yep! I've seen some of those people "enlightened" too! Their look says it all! :erg:
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