Aikido vs anything?

[Aiki Lee]

You bring up a good point DBZ. From my understanding, O-Sensei Ueshiba created aikido from his understanding of diato ryu because he thought that such violence was not necessary for the common era. Aikido was created to be a method to protect onself by harmonizing with everything around you. This makes it much easier to avoid fighting in the first place and the physical self-defense techniques are applicable to an aggressive attacker. If the attacker isn't agressive, why fight him? Aikido does not appear in MMA not because it doesn't work, but because that goes against the philosophy of aikido.

 

[DBZ]

You bring up a good point DBZ. From my understanding, O-Sensei Ueshiba created aikido from his understanding of diato ryu because he thought that such violence was not necessary for the common era. Aikido was created to be a method to protect onself by harmonizing with everything around you. This makes it much easier to avoid fighting in the first place and the physical self-defense techniques are applicable to an aggressive attacker. If the attacker isn't agressive, why fight him? Aikido does not appear in MMA not because it doesn't work, but because that goes against the philosophy of aikido.

Makes perfects sense to me. I like the philosophy of akido because I think martial arts should be for protection not to go out and woop up on somebody. I study MA to protect myself and others.

 

[Chris Parker]

You bring up a good point DBZ. From my understanding, O-Sensei Ueshiba created aikido from his understanding of diato ryu because he thought that such violence was not necessary for the common era. Aikido was created to be a method to protect onself by harmonizing with everything around you. This makes it much easier to avoid fighting in the first place and the physical self-defense techniques are applicable to an aggressive attacker. If the attacker isn't agressive, why fight him? Aikido does not appear in MMA not because it doesn't work, but because that goes against the philosophy of aikido.

Close, Himura... O-Sensei did create Aikido out of a variety of sources, the most prominent of which was Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, but also some weaponry systems such as Kukishin Ryu and Yagyu Shinkange Ryu, and of course, his own natural ability to see a martial art in practice and understand the finer details pretty much instantly.

However, I would disagree with the idea that he created it "because he thought such violence was not necessary". If we go back ino Ueshiba Sensei's history, he spent much of his time prior to WWII being quite a "physical" enforcer of very right-wing political beliefs, as well as having a number of very violent encounters during WWII itself (adding to the development of the art). It was after this that he started to take a much more spiritual approach, and the art became what people normally associate with the term Aikido today. Just remember, the original Aikido school was the Hell Dojo (Jigoku Dojo), and it was not named in jest...

The idea of harmonizing with an attacker can be done gently, and in a way that removes much of the potential danger for an attacker to be injured... but you can also harmonize in such a way that increases the amount of damage done. It is all the same, and to only think of harmonizing as a "gentle" approach is to only see a small part of the entire enigma that is Aikido. There is so much more for you to delve into, and so much more for you to experience, and so much more that can add to your understanding and your life.

 

[theletch1]

Chris, that is quite possibly one of the best posts I've seen in a while. Far, far too often folks see aikido as Ueshiba Sensei eventually evolved it... they see aikido as Ueshiba saw it after years of personal growth not as he envisioned it in the beginning. There are tons of different sub-styles of aikido and they run the gamut from little more than meditation exercises to styles (like mine) that blur the line between -do and -jutsu. :asian:

 

[Aiki Lee]

I was unaware of Ueshiba's ties to those other martial arts. See? This is why I joined martial talk, I have abetter understanding of something I care about.

I was under the impression that Ueshiba molded aikido into a more "compassionate" martial art. Though the "gentleness" seems anything but gentle to the villian on the recieving end. I honestly don't know more than most non-aikidoka do about him, although I am aware that he was a powerful martial artist that could kill if need be, but I was unaware that he fought during the war.

So if I was mistaken about why aikido was created, is there a different reason for why he made the art the way he did?

 

[morph4me]

As I understand it he got involved with religion and modified his teaching and application to be more in line with his religious beliefs.

 

[Archangel M]

My Aikido knowledge is purely via books, videos and 1-2 short seminar demos. However I have to admit that I would "buy" Aikidos combat effectiveness more if I saw demos with realistic attacks vs. the every attack being an overhead open-hand chop or the attacker just sticking his arm out for the defender to grab.

 

[Archangel M]

Its also very easy to "flow" when your opponent is "flowing" with you and not actively trying to **** you up.

 

[Kumbajah]

My Aikido knowledge is purely via books, videos and 1-2 short seminar demos. However I have to admit that I would "buy" Aikidos combat effectiveness more if I saw demos with realistic attacks vs. the every attack being an overhead open-hand chop or the attacker just sticking his arm out for the defender to grab.

Realistic in what context? I think this criticism could be leveled at any asian martial - where outside a MA context have you ever seen someone throw a "karate style" reverse punch or a chop? It is the angle, velocity, and intent of the attack that are important. Hockey fights are more "realistic" than any MA fight I've ever seen.

 

[Archangel M]

Realistic in what context? I think this criticism could be leveled at any asian martial - where outside a MA context have you ever seen someone throw a "karate style" reverse punch or a chop? It is the angle, velocity, and intent of the attack that are important. Hockey fights are more "realistic" than any MA fight I've ever seen.

True. But I still think Aikidos attacks (at least in most of the demos I have observed) are more stylistic than most.

 

[theletch1]

True. But I still think Aikidos attacks (at least in most of the demos I have observed) are more stylistic than most.

Here's a vid of the #2 guy in my style from 1990. Roundhouses, uppercuts, backhands, pushes. There is a good bit of atemi in there and even a good high kick somewhere toward the end. It's still a demo so many of the style bashers are gonna find something to ***** about but it's a good representation of what my style of aikido is like. Gentle? Could be but Sensei MacEwen doesn't care to make it that way.

[yt]N1B8sogcOyY&feature=related[/yt]

 

[mook jong man]

Nice video.
I can see some moves that are similar to what is found in Wing Chun at the higher levels . Not the joint locking , but I saw a deflection there against the round house that looks similar to what we call a Dai sau , and some of the moves where they off balance the attacker by controlling the neck look like applications off the wooden dummy.

 

[K-man]

Here's a vid of the #2 guy in my style from 1990. Roundhouses, uppercuts, backhands, pushes. There is a good bit of atemi in there and even a good high kick somewhere toward the end. It's still a demo so many of the style bashers are gonna find something to ***** about but it's a good representation of what my style of aikido is like. Gentle? Could be but Sensei MacEwen doesn't care to make it that way.

I like the video also. I think a lot of people never see atemi, knees or kicks being trained so miss a big part of aikido that is perhaps under emphasised in some, maybe most, schools. What I would like to see though is uke attacking with both hands rather that leaving one arm hanging. If the technique is applied correctly the second hand never arrives but it looks a bit weak in demonstrations to only use one hand. A pity there aren't more teachers like yours out there.

 

[Chris Parker]

True. But I still think Aikidos attacks (at least in most of the demos I have observed) are more stylistic than most.

From what I understand, Ueshiba Sensei based the attacking rythms of Uke on sword cuts, most obviously a straight cut down (known as Shomen Giri, or Ten Chi Giri, or by about 5 or 6 other names that I have heard), and that is why the attacks are often a hand edge straight down with a step (to align the same hand and foot for a commited action). This action is obviously the primary one used to learn the basic movements and techniques, afterwards, of course, you apply the techniques and principles against a much wider range of attacks.

In terms of "realistic", and how you can find difficulties applying that to most Martial Arts, yep. Not really realistic at all. Won't work, don't try. Although...

You need to remember what the techniques are based on, and what they are designed to work against. Classical Aikido techniques against typical old-style Japanese attacks, and it'll work incrediably well. Against modern jabs, hooks, kicks etc. the techniques need to be modified, but the principles are timeless, and will be just as effective, powerful, and realistic provided they are trained as such.

To balance that out, though, boxing nowadays is a very good way to get a lot of practical skills at hitting and being hit, but if we go back even to the time of Aikido's origin (early to mid-20t Century), the "fisticuffs" old-style of boxing was what worked. These days, if you adopt an "old school" boxing pose, you get laughed at. Try it. Honestly, try it! But if we look at what it was designed to combat, you realise that boxing in those days included the ideas of grappling, and a great deal of "dirty" tactics, and the high, extended guard of the old posture is designed to keep the opponent at a distance so they couldn't grab you. So, it is very realistic, if you keep in mind the context and principles.

 

[morph4me]

I like the video also. I think a lot of people never see atemi, knees or kicks being trained so miss a big part of aikido that is perhaps under emphasised in some, maybe most, schools. What I would like to see though is uke attacking with both hands rather that leaving one arm hanging. If the technique is applied correctly the second hand never arrives but it looks a bit weak in demonstrations to only use one hand. A pity there aren't more teachers like yours out there.

You're right about leaving one arm hanging, we tend to leave one hand free so we can take those falls, the have a tendency to hurt if you're a little late with the slap. It's not necessarily correct, but it does save some wear and tear on our bodies :uhyeah:

 

[Jenna]

but you can also harmonize in such a way that increases the amount of damage done.

Hey Chris I think you have cut to the core of this thread. Aikido's circularity is often misinterpreted as some kind of cowardly evasion by those ignorant of the simple premises. And but that circularity can be utilised for evasion, deflection and redirection or for out-and-out impulse increasers to move the opponent. By a wildly digressing analogy, rocket scientists do not rely on the thrust of the engines to propel their satellite into distant space, they utilise the pull of other bodies to rotate and "slingshot".

Good points, good post, thank you
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[morph4me]

Hey Chris I think you have cut to the core of this thread. Aikido's circularity is often misinterpreted as some kind of cowardly evasion by those ignorant of the simple premises. And but that circularity can be utilised for evasion, deflection and redirection or for out-and-out impulse increasers to move the opponent. By a wildly digressing analogy, rocket scientists do not rely on the thrust of the engines to propel their satellite into distant space, they utilise the pull of other bodies to rotate and "slingshot".

Good points, good post, thank you
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Yep, Aikido is a soft art, soft in application, not in results.

 

[K-man]

You're right about leaving one arm hanging, we tend to leave one hand free so we can take those falls, the have a tendency to hurt if you're a little late with the slap. It's not necessarily correct, but it does save some wear and tear on our bodies :uhyeah:

We attack with one hand but carry the other hand in a position to deflect a counter. I feel that this is more realistic and doesn't prevent us using the free arm to roll or breakfall.

As for wear and tear ... gets worse past 60!

 

[morph4me]

We attack with one hand but carry the other hand in a position to deflect a counter. I feel that this is more realistic and doesn't prevent us using the free arm to roll or breakfall.

As for wear and tear ... gets worse past 60!

Oh good, something to look forward to :lol:

 

[charyuop]

I think this thread is a very good one. It highlights the very first opinions of people who trained in the art for few months/1 year. Where they think they know the art while they barely get a little taste of it.
There are certain things that are kinda misleading in my opinion and that reading around internet are made even more misleading.

I too started Aikido thinking a nice kind art, wait for the attack and the counter attack. Truth is another tho. Using the opponent energy doesn't mean wait for 10 punches to reach you then magically avoid them. Don't wait for 3 people to attack you in turn so that you can use their energy against them. A nice circular motion, doesn't have to be that huge dance-step which makes you hakama fly high. You don't catch any opponent wrist or finger...if you do good, but you don't even want to think about doing it (unless you have superman speed). Being soft doesn't mean being limp, it doesn't mean giving up to your opponent, but it can (and many times does) mean stand your own ground and have the opponent to give up his/her own ground. Arm locks is not what Aikido is about, working on the opponent balance is more important than twisting a wrist and who thinks in a real fight balance is not something to aim at is wrong...

I could go on for years and the more I train the more I could add to that list, even because I am still realizing now how many misleading thoughts about Aikido I had in the past and I am sure I still have.