why do I mostly see older folks when attending adult Karate class?

[MetalBoar]

I would exclude anyone who started a more combat sport focused art in their 20s or 30s because that supports the position that people in that age group lean towards those styles, and simply getting a bit older isn’t much of a motivation to switch styles.

Your couple friend I would count because they started a more combat sport focused style in those later years.

I largely agree with those reasons, but I would add fear/apprehension about styles like MT or KB to that list. Fear of injury, apprehensive about being judged by the younger adults, and other similar concerns.

I think fear of injury and fear of judgement keeps the a lot of people of all ages out of martial arts. I think you're right that fear of injury increases with age and the incentive to be good at fighting tends to decline with age as well. I'm not sure how many people who haven't done MA have enough information to judge the relative risk difference between point sparring karate and full contact Muay Thai. I think just watching a Judo class and seeing people thrown to the mat might be enough to scare a lot of older people off. Since a lot of BJJ schools focus very heavily on ground work, it can seem pretty tame in comparison to karate if you don't really know what you're looking at. I'm not sure how much assessment the uninitiated do, or even can do accurately, before they start an MA class.

And that's the thing, in my experience, most people who've reached 40 without ever taking an MA view most of it as juvenile silliness that's only appropriate for kids (karate, TKD, etc.), as thuggish brutality (MMA, boxing), or for really old people (Tai Chi - if they even know it's a martial art). They aren't going to take any MA. Those who don't have these views usually still only know what they remember from what their friends did in grade school, so karate, TKD, Judo, maybe kung fu, or want to look like a movie star, or have kids who train.

 

[GojuTommy]

I think fear of injury and fear of judgement keeps the a lot of people of all ages out of martial arts. I think you're right that fear of injury increases with age and the incentive to be good at fighting tends to decline with age as well. I'm not sure how many people who haven't done MA have enough information to judge the relative risk difference between point sparring karate and full contact Muay Thai. I think just watching a Judo class and seeing people thrown to the mat might be enough to scare a lot of older people off. Since a lot of BJJ schools focus very heavily on ground work, it can seem pretty tame in comparison to karate if you don't really know what you're looking at. I'm not sure how much assessment the uninitiated do, or even can do accurately, before they start an MA class.

And that's the thing, in my experience, most people who've reached 40 without ever taking an MA view most of it as juvenile silliness that's only appropriate for kids (karate, TKD, etc.), as thuggish brutality (MMA, boxing), or for really old people (Tai Chi - if they even know it's a martial art). They aren't going to take any MA. Those who don't have these views usually still only know what they remember from what their friends did in grade school, so karate, TKD, Judo, maybe kung fu, or want to look like a movie star, or have kids who train.

I think adults interested will do at least some basic research even if it only goes as far as a few watching some YouTube videos after googling a list of martial arts to ‘get an idea’ about what they are.

But at the end of the day any reasons as to why, we can’t know with any certainty until someone does a study or a wide ranging poll.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Karate classes Ive attended, I tend to see mostly folks in their mid 40s upwards all the way to 70s (plus kids) but very few young adults. Is Karate more friendly for n aging body?

Younger adults often do not have the available time to devote to things like martial arts. Same reason I see a lot of guys in their 20s and their 50s on motorcycles. In between, they're raising families.

 

[GojuTommy]

Younger adults often do not have the available time to devote to things like martial arts. Same reason I see a lot of guys in their 20s and their 50s on motorcycles. In between, they're raising families.

I mean that’s just not true. There’s plenty of young adults participating in MMA, MT, BJJ, etc.
Also the millennial generation has a much lower rate of having children than gen X or boomers, so you can’t really blame it on having kids. In fact that’s likely one of the biggest motivators for adults in their upper 20s to 40s starting karate, to have an activity they can share with their kids even if they’re not in the same class, it’s something they can then do together at home, and engage with them on.

So that makes the question, why are people in their 20s and 30s picking other martial arts over karate, and what can the karate community change to attract those age groups.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I mean that’s just not true. There’s plenty of young adults participating in MMA, MT, BJJ, etc.
Also the millennial generation has a much lower rate of having children than gen X or boomers, so you can’t really blame it on having kids. In fact that’s likely one of the biggest motivators for adults in their upper 20s to 40s starting karate, to have an activity they can share with their kids even if they’re not in the same class, it’s something they can then do together at home, and engage with them on.

So that makes the question, why are people in their 20s and 30s picking other martial arts over karate, and what can the karate community change to attract those age groups.

Oh OK. Guess I'm wrong. I'll have to imagine back the people from my dojo who quit to raise families. My mistake, they just ran off to learn BJJ.

 

[isshinryuronin]

So that makes the question, why are people in their 20s and 30s picking other martial arts over karate,

I'm not sure that's even true. Maybe, but I think the idea that everyone is rushing to BJJ or MT may be exaggerated.
In the 1960-1980 era, most of the students were teens to 20's. There used to be boxing clubs (even in college) and judo schools before that. Karate pretty much put them out of business. In the 1990's, lots of kids (especially in TDK) signed up.

Today, I really don't know for sure. People in the age group you're talking about are too wrapped up in their smart phones and social media. If true, the popularity of MMA and UFC television would be a driving force. So, things come and go out of style. Sometimes they come back, sometimes they don't.

what can the karate community change to attract those age.

This is a good question. We are past the time of Count Dante and his "death touch." The popular idea of karate being just block-kick-punch; people are looking for excitement and realism these days. I think if we can convey that karate is a complex system with nasty effective stuff, grabbing and locking/hitting and takedowns, it may attract that age group. Just how to do that, I'm not sure. A major PR drive may do that, but that would take an organized effort, and traditional karate is anything but organized.

But there is another question: Who cares if what you say is true (unless you have a commercial school.)?? Karate was originally developed and taught to a few select students. Then it exploded to the general masses with the resulting dilution of quality. Maybe it's time to cycle back to the old days?

 

[GojuTommy]

I'm not sure that's even true. Maybe, but I think the idea that everyone is rushing to BJJ or MT may be exaggerated.
In the 1960-1980 era, most of the students were teens to 20's. There used to be boxing clubs (even in college) and judo schools before that. Karate pretty much put them out of business. In the 1990's, lots of kids (especially in TDK) signed up.

Today, I really don't know for sure. People in the age group you're talking about are too wrapped up in their smart phones and social media. If true, the popularity of MMA and UFC television would be a driving force. So, things come and go out of style. Sometimes they come back, sometimes they don't.

This is a good question. We are past the time of Count Dante and his "death touch." The popular idea of karate being just block-kick-punch; people are looking for excitement and realism these days. I think if we can convey that karate is a complex system with nasty effective stuff, grabbing and locking/hitting and takedowns, it may attract that age group. Just how to do that, I'm not sure. A major PR drive may do that, but that would take an organized effort, and traditional karate is anything but organized.

But there is another question: Who cares if what you say is true (unless you have a commercial school.)?? Karate was originally developed and taught to a few select students. Then it exploded to the general masses with the resulting dilution of quality. Maybe it's time to cycle back to the old days?

Karate was also only taught to and by the wealthy in those days.

Weird how the response to how do we change karate got such a different response here lol.

Any way, yeah the karate community is very unorganized, and unfortunately a huge portion are mcdojos.

I think there’s very little you or I or any other individual can do to change perceptions as a whole.
We all need to be active parts of this rebranding and evolution of training methods, but I think things like Cobra Kai, Karate Combat, and the major karate tubers and really push and supporting karateka in MMA and KB is where a lot of that will happen.

Knowing what major pro fighters come from our styles or the parent styles to our styles if we’re doing an off shoot, and being able to point to them and say “see them we can teach you to be like them.”

On a related note, I would love cobra Kai and karate combat team up for a season or two not the main characters are all about to turn 18 and will be aging out of the all valley

 

[Oily Dragon]

We are past the time of Count Dante and his "death touch."

I so wish that were true.

People sign up for that stuff to this day and pay cash money up front for it.

 

[Tez3]

Karate was also only taught to and by the wealthy in those days.

Weird how the response to how do we change karate got such a different response here lol.

Any way, yeah the karate community is very unorganized, and unfortunately a huge portion are mcdojos.

I think there’s very little you or I or any other individual can do to change perceptions as a whole.
We all need to be active parts of this rebranding and evolution of training methods, but I think things like Cobra Kai, Karate Combat, and the major karate tubers and really push and supporting karateka in MMA and KB is where a lot of that will happen.

Knowing what major pro fighters come from our styles or the parent styles to our styles if we’re doing an off shoot, and being able to point to them and say “see them we can teach you to be like them.”

On a related note, I would love cobra Kai and karate combat team up for a season or two not the main characters are all about to turn 18 and will be aging out of the all valley

Karate was only taught to the wealthy in the 1960s to 80s? And wasn't well organised?
You are assuming what happens in the US is what happens elsewhere. Karate in Europe and the UK wasn't for the rich at all, in the 60s the JKA sent out senior instructors from Japan to different countries to bring and teach karate. In 1965 Keinosuke Enoeda along with three other instructors came to the UK to set up and teach Shotokan.
Wado Ryu did the same, the first Japanese instructor was Tatsuo Suzuki, the founder himself even came across to teach at a seminar.
None of these taught 'the rich', the organisations they founded are still going strong. My original instructor trained under Suzuki.

 

[GojuTommy]

Karate was only taught to the wealthy in the 1960s to 80s? And wasn't well organised?
You are assuming what happens in the US is what happens elsewhere. Karate in Europe and the UK wasn't for the rich at all, in the 60s the JKA sent out senior instructors from Japan to different countries to bring and teach karate. In 1965 Keinosuke Enoeda along with three other instructors came to the UK to set up and teach Shotokan.
Wado Ryu did the same, the first Japanese instructor was Tatsuo Suzuki, the founder himself even came across to teach at a seminar.
None of these taught 'the rich', the organisations they founded are still going strong. My original instructor trained under Suzuki.

No one said anything about the 60s or 80s I was literally replying to a comment about karate originally being taught to small groups.

Karate wasn’t being taught only to small groups in those decades. It was already being taught to large groups. Try to make an argument that isn’t a strawman.

 

[GojuTommy]

I so wish that were true.

People sign up for that stuff to this day and pay cash money up front for it.

Idk if dillman claims to be karate, but yeah people still fall for that ****.

 

[Tez3]

No one said anything about the 60s or 80s I was literally replying to a comment about karate originally being taught to small groups.

Karate wasn’t being taught only to small groups in those decades. It was already being taught to large groups. Try to make an argument that isn’t a strawman.

Ah you were in the UK in the 60s then.

Do stop wriggling like a vicar seen in a sex shop, it's amusing but ridiculous. Just answer, instead of telling posters you didn't say this or that, it's happening so many times makes you look like a politician.

We get you're invested in your opinion so here's an idea, instead of criticising everyone else why don't you go off and train the way you think it should be done then come back and show us the videos

 

[GojuTommy]

Ah you were in the UK in the 60s then.

Do stop wriggling like a vicar seen in a sex shop, it's amusing but ridiculous. Just answer, instead of telling posters you didn't say this or that, it's happening so many times makes you look like a politician.

We get you're invested in your opinion so here's an idea, instead of criticising everyone else why don't you go off and train the way you think it should be done then come back and show us the videos

No one is talking about the 60s and no one mentioned the UK. why are you ignoring the context of my post?

 

[Tez3]

No one is talking about the 60s and no one mentioned the UK. why are you ignoring the context of my post?

Sigh, I mentioned the UK because you specifically said karate as if it only exists in the US, you mentioned the 60s, mon ami.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Idk if dillman claims to be karate, but yeah people still fall for that ****.

First hit on G is "American karateka". At least the Wiki has some info on the nonsense he often teaches.

And that's why the people earnestly trying to learn karate the right way need proper guidance. One of the nice things about kata is that if they are legit, they are typically BS-free. In other words, most BS in martial arts must be pretty new. It's not the old stuff, that stuff survived centuries. Old BS died in the field.

And there's definitely non-legit kata etc, but that's why scholarly interest in these old forms is so important.

Sanskrit, dude. Dead language, but invaluable to human evolution.

 

[GojuTommy]

First hit on G is "American karateka". At least the Wiki has some info on the nonsense he often teaches.

And that's why the people earnestly trying to learn karate the right way need proper guidance. One of the nice things about kata is that if they are legit, they are typically BS-free. In other words, most BS in martial arts must be pretty new. It's not the old stuff, that stuff survived centuries. Old BS died in the field.

And there's definitely non-legit kata etc, but that's why scholarly interest in these old forms is so important.

Sanskrit, dude. Dead language, but invaluable to human evolution.

What do you consider‘pretty new’?
There’s video of ueshiba doing no touch BS with his students.

 

[Oily Dragon]

What do you consider‘pretty new’?
There’s video of ueshiba doing no touch BS with his students.

I'd say between the post colonial age and now. Ueshiba's personal art evolved a lot between his youth and the postwar era. It went from very violent to almost pacifist.

So consider what that "no touch BS" actually is. Post the video it'll help put things in context.

 

[GojuTommy]

I'd say between the post colonial age and now. Ueshiba's personal art evolved a lot between his youth and the postwar era. It went from very violent to almost pacifist.

So consider what that "no touch BS" actually is. Post the video it'll help put things in context.

Here’s an example

 

[Oily Dragon]

Here’s an example

Ok thanks.

There's no BS in that video. Whatever BS you think is there is probably something else.

I just see ukemi training, and a seriously agile old dude moving like the wind.

Like, if I did nothing but scream in your face, could you do a forward roll? Right now?

How about old age? Aha! I've just given you the car keys to Aikido. Use it well, and for peaceful purposes dude.

 

[MadMartigan]

I can only speak to what I've seen, and yes the 20-30s crowd can be seen filling out BJJ, MT, and MMA clubs, with far fewer joining the traditional white pajama martial arts crowd. I think we like to tell ourselves that they're home with their families and working their careers... and that's partially true. The problem for Karate (and my art TKD) is that the few left in that age bracket with the motivation to get out and train are mostly heading elsewhere. I have several thoughts on why this is.

In North America, MMA dominates the combat sport consciousness. You have an entire generation who grew up Watching the UFC instead of Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris. They've been told their whole lives that TMA don't work, and that you need to train only these 3 arts to be the most effective. Just listen to the commentary at the fights and it's almost always there in some fashion.

Another reason I think goes to culture. Yes, many adult males (for the sake of illustration) are career and family focused in their 20s and 30s. Those are the people who are not training anywhere for the most part. The ones left tend to be more competitive focused. They are more likely to seek out the arts focused around competition (while aligning with their belief on which ones work).

Lastly (to keep from writing a book), there's a vicious 'catch 22' that the TMAs did to themselves. By so successfully marketing to children, an association was formed in many minds that children are who they are for. Over the past 20 years I have watched the TMA classes that used to be full of young adults lose nearly all of them to BJJ etc. Now, when that rare adult who would want to take a TMA up goes looking, they see classes full of kids and teens. Then they see everyone else their age across the street training MMA or MT. It's easy math to guess which club they're more likely to try at that point.

I say all this as one of the stalwart few still trying to keep the TMAs going for adults. It's just a bit more challenging now than it was 20 years ago unfortunately.