Why different levels

[Daniel Sullivan]

This would depend on specific clubs and systems.

Just the feeling that I get from what people from other systems say, first is generally not an instructor rank.

As to whether or not some schools put first dans into an instructor roles or whether or not first dans should be instructing is different subject.

For TKD, 4th dan is considered an instructor rank, but in our system, 1st dan is an instructor rank as well.

I thought you were Kukkiwon.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

1st degree level 1 is probationary black belt, black belt with white stripe, no name on it.
1st degree level 2 is decided black belt, solid black belt with name embroidered on it and 1 stripe with a L2 on it.
(Both of these ranks most of you know as Gwang-Gae form)
1st degree level 3 and 4 (Ge-Baek form) have black belt with name, 1 stripe and either L3 or L4 on it.

2nd degree is solid black belt with name, 2 stripes and either L1, L2, L3, or L4 on it.
2nd degree Level 1 and 2 have the form most of you know as Yoo-Sin.
2nd degree Level 3 and 4 have the form most of you know as Ul-Ji.

3rd degree is solid black with name, 3 stripes and either L1, L2, L3, or L4 on it.
3rd degree Level 1 and 2 have the form most of you know as Choong-Jang.
3rd degree Level 3 and 4 have the form most of you know as Juche.

It is my understanding these forms were modified somewhat from their orignal Korean forms but are still very similar.

karatemom, do you know of any videos on the web showing these patterns the way your organization performs them? I'd be interested in seeing what changes were made. (I once met a guy who modified Chon-Ji by adding kicks to it; did the same thing to some of the other tul, too, IIRC.)

Also, did your group change the names of the tul? I ask because of your comments about "the form most of you know as..." Does this mean the names were changed, or am I missing something?

Pax,

Chris

 

[granfire]

karatemom, do you know of any videos on the web showing these patterns the way your organization performs them? I'd be interested in seeing what changes were made. (I once met a guy who modified Chon-Ji by adding kicks to it; did the same thing to some of the other tul, too, IIRC.)

Also, did your group change the names of the tul? I ask because of your comments about "the form most of you know as..." Does this mean the names were changed, or am I missing something?

Pax,

Chris

^_^ sry not the perfection I was going for.

and he left the footwork out. ^_^

And this instructor I want to flog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwf98yO-GM&feature=related

 

[chrispillertkd]

^_^ sry not the perfection I was going for.

and he left the footwork out. ^_^

And this instructor I want to flog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwf98yO-GM&feature=related

Very interesting. Those versions are quite different from the ones the ITF perform.

Pax,

Chris

 

[granfire]

LOL, you could actually make hand AND foot from those?!!!!

Well, it's the little kids, cub class graduates.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I also checked out some other videos of the ITA patterns on youtube, including some performed by black belts. The patterns have been considerably modified and the techniques themselves are performed quite differently.

Pax,

Chris

 

[granfire]

I looked (but not too hard) and those were 'the best' I found.

when was it, 4 years ago? They changed the forms around quiet considerably. Some not too much, som a lot. (rough times for instructors: a bad DVD to learn from that you could not take home, the end product looked different from what was demonstrated in fall, and in 4 month the whole set had to be relearned...it's SOOO much easier to learn from scratch compared to do something you have done - and taught a million times)

 

[puunui]

Just the feeling that I get from what people from other systems say, first is generally not an instructor rank. As to whether or not some schools put first dans into an instructor roles or whether or not first dans should be instructing is different subject.

Historically, students would open their own Korean Martial Arts clubs in my area around 2nd or 3rd Dan. Generally, I don't consider 1st Dan to be instructor rank, although I have seen clubs run by 1st Dans before. Other styles have different standards. For example, many Brazilian Jiujitsu clubs here (I would say the majority even) have head instructors who are three/four stripe purple through brown belts. For Brazilian Jiujitsu, I tend to think of ranks like this: 3 stripe blue belt = 1st Dan, Purple Belt = 2nd Dan, Brown Belt = 3rd Dan, and Black Belt = 4th Dan. It is much harder to get a BJJ black belt than it is a Taekwondo or any other style black belt, in my opinion.

 

[karatemom]

Chris,
They did change the names..

Here is my friend Jill doing the 1st Degree Level 2 Form (Sky Form) at a tournament:

1st Degree Level 3 and 4 form (Tiger Form):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbn9q0v-OXY&feature=related

I found one where a girl is doing the 2nd Degree Level 3 and 4 form (Eagle Form):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9xUxYGY_94&feature=related

I have one of me doing the Oak Tree Form (2nd Degree Level 1 and 2) but I can't find it right now...

 

[granfire]

Chris,
They did change the names..

Here is my friend Jill doing the 1st Degree Level 2 Form (Sky Form) at a tournament:

I like to call it the 'you think you are all that but try not to fall on your face, Grasshopper' form.

those CAT2 moves at the end a teh suck to get down pat.


Found this one browsing. Can I say how much I hate this guy? ^_^

(actually Master Griffin is a really nice guy, had the pleasure to do a seminar with him. He is just too springy! )

 

[andyjeffries]

There are no regulations in the US governing who can open a school. If I had the financial wherewithal to open a school, I could do so. If I am leading a class and wearing a black belt, the majority of consumers will never know the difference. But those familiar with the arts do not consider first dan to be an instructor rank. By first dan, most students are assisting in some capacity, but that does not make them an instructor grade. First dan is considered to be the top of the bottom. Fourth dan and up are generally what is considered instructor grades.

Interesting. In the UK 4th Dan is considered Master, but you can certainly open a club at 1st Dan. While it isn't expected to do so, it's certainly supported. You can't promote students to Kup grade until 4th Dan so a club run by a 1st Dan would still have a close relationship with a nearby 4th Dan or above.

What is a BTC?

British Taekwondo Council. The WTF Member National Association in the UK is the British Taekwondo Control Board (BTCB). The BTCB is affiliate with the British Taekwondo Council though which is an umbrella group for all types of Taekwondo/Taekwon-do in the UK. BTCB chooses who goes to the Olympics, BTC "certifies" "instructors"*.

* The reason I put this in quotes is because the course you attend has no Taekwondo training involved, it's purely ensuring you're aware of all the legal requirements and it has no test at the end of the session - if you attend (and your Enhanced Criminal Records Bureau evaluation comes back clean) then you're a BTC Registered Instructor.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There is no equivalency to the BTCB in the US with regards to regulating the opening of clubs.

In the US, yes, a first dan could open a club. Anyone with the money to open a club may open a club. Even a white belt. They may not be taken seriously by anyone, or they may have to bring in instructors to teach the classes for them, but there are no regulatkons preventing them from opening a club.

I have seen second and third dans in instructor roles, usually assistants, but some running classes. First dan students are not generally considered instructors, at least not in my area.

I am not passing judgement on first dan instructors; only saying that first dan is not considered an instructor rank in most arts with which I am familiar.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Well Daniel here in Texas we have so many 1st - 3rd that have TKD schools and that is what is flooring the aera with low quality instructors. So many G.N. send out there young B.B.'s tp open up school or clubs inside fitness centers and rec. centers that all they seem to think about is money and how much they can make.

 

[miguksaram]

Just the feeling that I get from what people from other systems say, first is generally not an instructor rank.

As to whether or not some schools put first dans into an instructor roles or whether or not first dans should be instructing is different subject.


I thought you were Kukkiwon.

Daniel

I am Kukkiwon, but I have a dirty little secret...I instruct at a Shorei-ryu Karate school, where I have a 2nd dan and practice karate and kumdo. (~shhhhh~ Don't tell anyone though...they will think I don't know anything TKD once I put on a karate uniform)

 

[granfire]

Well Daniel here in Texas we have so many 1st - 3rd that have TKD schools and that is what is flooring the aera with low quality instructors. So many G.N. send out there young B.B.'s tp open up school or clubs inside fitness centers and rec. centers that all they seem to think about is money and how much they can make.

Well, that was one of the good points of the ITA:
You had to be a 1st degree before you could enter the instructor trainee program, which took a year minimum to complete, plus mandatory seminars and such and a lot of hours spend assisting in class etc.

So in theory you had some understanding before you were considered instructor. Not a 4rth degree or master (which is actually 6th degree ITA) but competent up to your level.

It is tricky for lower ranks to be effective teachers especially when you have some talented folks in your center. That was one of the problems this one lady ran into. I think originally she was a couple ranks behind me, but due to unforeseen circumstance she found herself first running a school for her instructor, then buying it from him. Her best student outranked her, I think and as talented athletic teen... you get the picture.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We have 2 1st dan instructors in our club, which is a pretty low ratio when you consider we would have about 50 full time instructors. At first I was skeptical, but after watching a couple of their classes I was quite impressed. I think a lot of being a good instructor comes down to being a good "people's person", a good communicator and someone who can work to a good lesson plan. It is compulsory for any of our instructors under 4th dan to attend black belt class every week, so they keep their skills and knowledge up to speed and I think this helps a great deal with lower rankig instructors. We have 2 very large tkd clubs in our area (much bigger than my club), and they have 1st gup instructors which I found a little surprising considering how good their club's reputation is. These particular clubs, however, take 5-7 years to get a black belt, so a 1st gup has probably had 6 years training, and in certain clubs you could probably have a 2nd dan after 6 years and no one would question their qualifications as an instructor. I would tend to look more at how long someone has been training before they instruct rather than their 'rank', because too many clubs just hand out black belts far too easily.