C
CrankyDragon
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hong kong fooey said:
I agree, if shes a GOOD BB, then she should be able to be victorious in a match, given the rank. But Id maker her earn the victory.
Sparring a 14 yr old BB
- Thread starter AceHBK
- Start date
I agree, if shes a GOOD BB, then she should be able to be victorious in a match, given the rank. But Id maker her earn the victory.
DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
I think that unless this 14 year old can handle adult contact, then this 14 yearold should not be called by adult titles. Very simple.AceHBK said:
Adult contact and adults having a lack of control are two different things. I doubt she would ever be able to take a full on roundhouse kick to the head from a six foot ten 350 lb assailant. Does that mean she should never hold an adult title? Should any woman hold that rank... ever?DeLamar.J said:
Sean
DeLamar.J said:
So does that mean that adults who cannot handle adult contact should not be called by adult titles? I know a woman who is a high red belt... and also a 68 year-old grandmother, about 5'2" - I suspect that the 14 year-old BB could handle 'adult contact' much more easily than this lady can. Does that mean that she, also, should not be called by adult titles? What about a woman I knew who was only 5' tall, 100 pounds, and a III Dan? She coudln't take 'adult contact' - she didn't have the body mass, despite being in her 30s. What about a student I had some years ago who, at 15, was 6'2" and lifted weights? He could take 'adult contact'... so did he deserve a different title than a 14 year-old girl who outranks him (he was a green belt at the time)?
Rank is earned through hard work - and that hard work deserves respect. Formal address is one form of address; given that AceHBK calls his instructor by his first name, that may not be the demonstration of respect that is appropriate in his class - but that does not change the fact that this young woman has earned the same amount of respect as any other person who has earned that rank. Her size, age, and gender may dictate the level of contact she can take - but not the amount of respect her rank is due.
DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
In responce to the two above posts, I feel that rank and titles are given out way to easy nowadays. If you are a master, or blackbelt, but cant even spar with a bigger stronger opponent without getting hurt, I see that as a problem.
If your an old man or woman who has earned the right in the past to wear a black belt and be called master, then that is a whole different story. There are countless situations, what if this or that, ect ect.
To be a master requires alot of years of training, and no 14 year old is cabable of this because they have not lived long enough to study the years required for this title. No teenager should be called master, its absurd.
Martial arts isnt all about fighting, I realize this. But if you cant get out there and bang with the big dogs, or was able to at one point, then the title of master, or a black belt should not be given. The standards for blackbelt are so FREAKING LOW. Its unbelievable!
There should be higher standards for rank. If you are just too small framed and weak to meet the standard, or too old, you should not be awarded the rank. When anyone can get a rank based on effort, the rank does not mean anything anymore. If you cant get out there and spar hard contact with strong fighters, then your rank should never go beyond a certain point until you are able to do that. In most schools, if you just stick it out long enough you will get your blackbelt, regardless if your capable of using what you have learned or not.
Having a blackbelt is just a joke now, and its just going to get worse. In a system of 12, 12 being black belt, If you cannot handle, or at least put up a damn good fight against a big strong fighter, you should never get past the 6th or 7th belt until you can. These are my standards, and I dont expect everyone to agree. But you have to agree that a blackbelt is a joke now.
If your an old man or woman who has earned the right in the past to wear a black belt and be called master, then that is a whole different story. There are countless situations, what if this or that, ect ect.
To be a master requires alot of years of training, and no 14 year old is cabable of this because they have not lived long enough to study the years required for this title. No teenager should be called master, its absurd.
Martial arts isnt all about fighting, I realize this. But if you cant get out there and bang with the big dogs, or was able to at one point, then the title of master, or a black belt should not be given. The standards for blackbelt are so FREAKING LOW. Its unbelievable!
There should be higher standards for rank. If you are just too small framed and weak to meet the standard, or too old, you should not be awarded the rank. When anyone can get a rank based on effort, the rank does not mean anything anymore. If you cant get out there and spar hard contact with strong fighters, then your rank should never go beyond a certain point until you are able to do that. In most schools, if you just stick it out long enough you will get your blackbelt, regardless if your capable of using what you have learned or not.
Having a blackbelt is just a joke now, and its just going to get worse. In a system of 12, 12 being black belt, If you cannot handle, or at least put up a damn good fight against a big strong fighter, you should never get past the 6th or 7th belt until you can. These are my standards, and I dont expect everyone to agree. But you have to agree that a blackbelt is a joke now.
DeLamar.J said:
That's silly. A black belt's always been a subjective measure. All it'll ever mean is whatever you load up onto the concept. Some think it's a certificate that proves they're an offical hardcase, some think it's an invitation to an exclusive manners club that for some reason involves wearing pajamas and kinda speaking Korean every once and awhile. If someone is on the floor who can't handle themselves, how exactly does that devalue your BB? Why does an old master who can't keep up with the younger students get his belt rescinded in your ideal system? He's terrible now, who cares what he knows, or what he can pass on, he can't take a hit from Bob Sapp! (This proves whatever he's done in the past is a waste of time.)
DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
I think you missed what I said about an old master. If he has proven his effectiveness in the past, then its ok.Marginal said:
Adept
Master Black Belt
DeLamar.J said:
No, they appear to be the standards you want everyone else to abide by.
Personally, I don't give a rats pyjamas about what ranks or belts other people are given any more. It used to be something that bothered me, seeing people being awarded rank that I didn't feel they'd earned, or seeing people given the same or better rank than myself, when I knew I was a superior fighter, it used to make me feel de-valued.
But in reflection, it's a petty and small-minded way to think. I don't care what ranks other people have any more, and I encourage everyone else to stop focusing on who earns what belt (or not) and instead focus on their own training and skills.
In terms of rank, not everyone needs to be able to 'bang with the big boys' to be eligible for any kind of rank. I wouldn't expect the #1 bantam weight boxer to get in the ring with the #1 super heavyweight. But that doesn't de-value anyones rank. In fact, it doesn't mean anything at all.
I have to agree with Adept rank means absolutely nothing in the scheme of training, all it means here in the states for the most part is either you and a bunch of body cross ranked each other so everybody can be a Master or you are ranked fort he sole purpose of being able to get your school ranked with some affiliation so they believe it is worth something.
People hold to much into it here, this 14 year old girl is a prime example of western TKD and the sport, she probaly train 2-4 a day to be at the top of her game in sport TKD and she is good enough to compete at the US Open big event here, but in no way is she a Master even if she has a 4th at 15 I would not call her Master, I would give her respect for she and everybody else I meet I call them sir or maam no-mattewr how old just the way I was bought up.
Fianally given respect is the right thing to do n-matter race, religion, or age, it is something that most of us was given at a young age and the society of today is trying to take away from our ancestors, me for one will always give into the ideal of respect, courtesy and indomital spirit for that is the only way.
Terry Lee Stoker
People hold to much into it here, this 14 year old girl is a prime example of western TKD and the sport, she probaly train 2-4 a day to be at the top of her game in sport TKD and she is good enough to compete at the US Open big event here, but in no way is she a Master even if she has a 4th at 15 I would not call her Master, I would give her respect for she and everybody else I meet I call them sir or maam no-mattewr how old just the way I was bought up.
Fianally given respect is the right thing to do n-matter race, religion, or age, it is something that most of us was given at a young age and the society of today is trying to take away from our ancestors, me for one will always give into the ideal of respect, courtesy and indomital spirit for that is the only way.
Terry Lee Stoker
DeLamar.J said:
No it's not because he cannot take such a hit any more. Therefore, he's unqualified to be a BB. I mean, if he can't meet minimum standards, why should he be allowed to maintain a rank he now cheapens?
Adept
Master Black Belt
wynnema said:
No, Marginal is highlighting that point in order to discredit DeLamar.J's point about ranks and standards.
So Ace, how is it going? I'm guessing you've met this gal by now. What have your impressions & experiences been?
- Thread Starter
- #54
IcemanSK said:
LOL!! I was going to give u all a update but this thread took a different turn and I didnt want to interrupt.
Funny thing is, we had a thunderstorm here this past friday and she no called/no showed. *shrugs* Hopefully she will call or something. I will definately keep everyone posted though.
AceHBK said:LOL!! I was going to give u all a update but this thread took a different turn and I didnt want to interrupt.
Funny thing is, we had a thunderstorm here this past friday and she no called/no showed. *shrugs* Hopefully she will call or something. I will definately keep everyone posted though.
Yeah, we did kinda make this train take a dirt road, didn't we?
Hopefully she'll letcha know what happened &/or call. That's the bummer about 14 year olds....They're at the mercy of a parent driving 'em.
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Sparring a young student, hmm? Well, in our dojang, I've sparred with the junior black belts who range in age from 10-14. I even sparred a 12 year old Deputy Black today for his class (this is because at 12, the kid is already as tall as most adults, and no other kid wanted to spar him.) We allow adult-child sparring for several reasons:
1. It teaches kids humility. While they may be the top dogs while sparring other kids, they suddenly learn that they have alot more to learn.
2. It teaches the kids how to get in on an opponent who has a much longer reach than they do.
3. It gives the edge for the kids when they spar other kids in tournaments. If they are able to at least hold their ground against an adult, then any fear or apprehension they have going into a tournament soon diminishes.
4. It teaches the adults control. The only adults who spar kids are Deputy Black and up, so control isn't that hard to maintain. (Though I had a snafu and made a hole in the wall shaped like my instructor's son. that was very... bad.)
As for ettiquette, when addressing a higher rank in the adult classes, it's "Sir" or "Ma'am" for a higher rank. If an adult is helping in a kid's class, then the adult is addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am". Black belts are able to call other black belts by their first name. At least that's how our school does it.
1. It teaches kids humility. While they may be the top dogs while sparring other kids, they suddenly learn that they have alot more to learn.
2. It teaches the kids how to get in on an opponent who has a much longer reach than they do.
3. It gives the edge for the kids when they spar other kids in tournaments. If they are able to at least hold their ground against an adult, then any fear or apprehension they have going into a tournament soon diminishes.
4. It teaches the adults control. The only adults who spar kids are Deputy Black and up, so control isn't that hard to maintain. (Though I had a snafu and made a hole in the wall shaped like my instructor's son. that was very... bad.)
As for ettiquette, when addressing a higher rank in the adult classes, it's "Sir" or "Ma'am" for a higher rank. If an adult is helping in a kid's class, then the adult is addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am". Black belts are able to call other black belts by their first name. At least that's how our school does it.
DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
I understand what your saying, of course a bantam weight wouldnt do to great against a heavy wieght. I just think rank and titles are given out way to easy, and that just increases peoples pretentiousness . There are many many exeptions to the rule though. Ali was a great fighter, but just because maywether could not beat him, does not mean he isnt a great fighter, because he proves it everytime he fights.Adept said:
All of these people handing out black belts to keep the money flowing are just 1.Making martial arts a joke, and 2. Making people think they are something when they are not. I cant count the ammount of times I have seen someone wearing a black belt acting like they are some top dogg, that couldnt even execute basic techniques properly, or most importantly, use them when it counts. If you cannot fight and show some pretty darn good skill while doing so, then you should not be called MASTER, or wear a black belt. A black belt means alot of things, but what it dont mean is not being able to fight. Say you have a pretty roundhouse and a great tripple spinning wheel kick, if you cant use those moves for what martial arts techniques are supposed to be used for, then what good are they? Some manuvers may be good cordination drills or warm ups, but people use fancy moves to make people believe that they are something they are not.
DeLamar.J said:
Delamar.J this is one fine post and well thought out, but I have to dis agree that a BB must be able to fight, I believe a BB is more than just fighting it is a way of life and how you run your life for all to see. I have seen some very captiable Bb that have never been in a fight and they probaly could not fight for that very reason, one must be a fighter to be a fighter, but one must be a whole to be a true BB>
Terry
DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
ADEPT/MARGINAL
I would also like to add that I do not feel that an old master should give up his rank, that was misunderstood completely. An old master has earned that rank from years of training and proving that what he or she does, is effective and not some joke.
I just feel that if you cannot at least make an effective display of martial art techniques while your fighting a worthy opponent, then you realy should not be given a black belt. If you have earned this rank in the past, and met the high standards that a black belt should be able to meet, and have became to old to do those things, then of course I dont think there rank should be taken. Thats insane.
However, I do feel that if you begin martial arts training at too old of an age, or you have phyisical limitations that keep you from performing as other do, then your rank should not go past a certain level. Some people have alot of heart, and that can be admirable, but if you cant meet the standards than you cant meet the standards. I dont feel that mercy rank should be given based on a persons dedication.
I realize this sounds quite harsh, but the rank means so much more when there is a standard that must be met with no exeptions. This increases the integrity of martial arts, the instructor, and the rank that people earn. Its kind of like special forces in the military, if everyone who showed heart and would give it there all were accepted regardless if the standard was met, THEN IT IS NOT SPECIAL ANYMORE. I see martial arts the same way.
I would also like to add that I do not feel that an old master should give up his rank, that was misunderstood completely. An old master has earned that rank from years of training and proving that what he or she does, is effective and not some joke.
I just feel that if you cannot at least make an effective display of martial art techniques while your fighting a worthy opponent, then you realy should not be given a black belt. If you have earned this rank in the past, and met the high standards that a black belt should be able to meet, and have became to old to do those things, then of course I dont think there rank should be taken. Thats insane.
However, I do feel that if you begin martial arts training at too old of an age, or you have phyisical limitations that keep you from performing as other do, then your rank should not go past a certain level. Some people have alot of heart, and that can be admirable, but if you cant meet the standards than you cant meet the standards. I dont feel that mercy rank should be given based on a persons dedication.
I realize this sounds quite harsh, but the rank means so much more when there is a standard that must be met with no exeptions. This increases the integrity of martial arts, the instructor, and the rank that people earn. Its kind of like special forces in the military, if everyone who showed heart and would give it there all were accepted regardless if the standard was met, THEN IT IS NOT SPECIAL ANYMORE. I see martial arts the same way.
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