why belt test?

[PhotonGuy]

I’m a school teacher. In a smaller setting (such as not having 100s of students in a lecture hall) I don’t need tests to know where my students are academically and if they’re capable of moving on. It helps, but it’s genuinely overrated. The main purpose it serves is putting an actual number/letter that corresponds to their level of understanding that they and everyone else has access to. I don’t need number/letter grades to know which students are excelling, which ones are average, which ones are lower performing, which ones need extra help now and possibly at the next level, and which ones need to be held back. The grades are realistically for everyone but me; so they can see what I’m seeing without being there every day and so my opinions are justified. There have been a few students who’ve surprised me with their test grades, good and bad, but they’re the exception. And after a test or two, there’s really no surprises anymore.

Well interestingly enough when it comes to academic testing tests are given when they're given, all the students take the test at the same time, and whether or not a student is ready for it shows in the grade they get. If there's a test on Friday you've got to take the test on Friday along with all the other students whether or not you're ready and if you aren't ready you get a bad grade. Another words, its up to the student to be ready for the test when the test is administered, not the other way around. This is opposite than how its usually done with testing in the martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well interestingly enough when it comes to academic testing tests are given when they're given, all the students take the test at the same time, and whether or not a student is ready for it shows in the grade they get. If there's a test on Friday you've got to take the test on Friday along with all the other students whether or not you're ready and if you aren't ready you get a bad grade. Another words, its up to the student to be ready for the test when the test is administered, not the other way around. This is opposite than how its usually done with testing in the martial arts.

That model is a necessity in the structure of education. And it means some folks have to wait and wait and wait to test, while others are not ready in spite of their best efforts. The original intention is for the teacher to be able to see who needs help at each point along the way. In some cases (as JR said) it’s not necessary to that end.

I don’t consider it a model of best practices.

 

[skribs]

Keep in mind that if perfecting your techniques is your goal, you may want to progress. While I wouldn't ever stop giving people advice, if I see a white belt that has a green belt level kick, I'm not going to worry too much about it. I'm going to help the white belt that has a really white-belt level kick get ready for the yellow belt test.

If I see a green belt with a green belt level kick, I'm going to be more apt to help him improve that to the next level.

Obviously if I'm working one-on-one with someone, I'll want to help them improve regardless, but if I'm helping out with a class and I'm picking who needs help, I'm going to want to help those that are struggling first.

 

[JR 137]

That model is a necessity in the structure of education. And it means some folks have to wait and wait and wait to test, while others are not ready in spite of their best efforts. The original intention is for the teacher to be able to see who needs help at each point along the way. In some cases (as JR said) it’s not necessary to that end.

I don’t consider it a model of best practices.

In the classroom, I find that the ones who don’t get it won’t get it no matter how much I delay the test. Maybe they’ll do minimally better, but nothing drastic. That’s not a put-down; some people just don’t truly “get” certain things. I teach grades 4-9 science. I have a 7th grade girl who’s been in my classroom 4 years now. She’s a little above average academically. But she’s absolutely bombed the cells test EVERY SINGLE TIME. I’ve noticed the same thing with other students in other units. Not to her extent, but close enough to it. I know when I hand her that test, she’s going to score low 60s at best. The rest of her tests are always upper 80s. I’ve tried several different strategies, but I’ve resigned myself to just dropping that test score for her. I just did that 2 weeks ago. If she’s still in my school in 9th grade, I know I’ll have to do it again.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In the classroom, I find that the ones who don’t get it won’t get it no matter how much I delay the test. Maybe they’ll do minimally better, but nothing drastic. That’s not a put-down; some people just don’t truly “get” certain things. I teach grades 4-9 science. I have a 7th grade girl who’s been in my classroom 4 years now. She’s a little above average academically. But she’s absolutely bombed the cells test EVERY SINGLE TIME. I’ve noticed the same thing with other students in other units. Not to her extent, but close enough to it. I know when I hand her that test, she’s going to score low 60s at best. The rest of her tests are always upper 80s. I’ve tried several different strategies, but I’ve resigned myself to just dropping that test score for her. I just did that 2 weeks ago. If she’s still in my school in 9th grade, I know I’ll have to do it again.

Especially at those ages, we all have areas where we don't gather information the same way as others. In 8th grade, I had to drop a level in math because I just couldn't "get" the algebra in the honors class. I took the exact same class (same teacher - mixed grades 8/9), and had an easy A. My brain just wasn't ready the first time. And I never did well in History, though reading and discussing history has always been interesting and fun for me - I don't gather and process dates and names like the presentation method is designed for.

 

[drop bear]

In the classroom, I find that the ones who don’t get it won’t get it no matter how much I delay the test. Maybe they’ll do minimally better, but nothing drastic. That’s not a put-down; some people just don’t truly “get” certain things. I teach grades 4-9 science. I have a 7th grade girl who’s been in my classroom 4 years now. She’s a little above average academically. But she’s absolutely bombed the cells test EVERY SINGLE TIME. I’ve noticed the same thing with other students in other units. Not to her extent, but close enough to it. I know when I hand her that test, she’s going to score low 60s at best. The rest of her tests are always upper 80s. I’ve tried several different strategies, but I’ve resigned myself to just dropping that test score for her. I just did that 2 weeks ago. If she’s still in my school in 9th grade, I know I’ll have to do it again.

Training camp.

You will be amazed what people get if they have to.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I’m pretty sure we’re 99% on the same page, just different ways of saying it.

Yes I believe we are. In the past there has been some trouble with other people on this forum understanding where Im coming from but that was probably just due to me not explaining things well enough. But Im working on that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes I believe we are. In the past there has been some trouble with other people on this forum understanding where Im coming from but that was probably just due to me not explaining things well enough. But Im working on that.

We all are, brother. I think a lot of the quick disagreements that happen are mis-communications and/or snap judgments based upon who posted.

 

[JP3]

I'm not KM either, but my thinking on ranks and rank structures is two-fold. On the one hand, it's a useful goal-setting activity paradigm for the student, if the art lends itself into such a breakdown of the path of learning. Second, it's an aid to the instructor, so as to know what the student has already accomplished, what they know, what they need to know, and what to be watching for.

 

[PhotonGuy]

We all are, brother. I think a lot of the quick disagreements that happen are mis-communications and/or snap judgments based upon who posted.

Well yes and that's why I sometimes wish I could take back stuff I said in the past so that I wouldn't have the reputation I've got and thus people wouldn't make snap judgements about stuff I say.

As for proper communication, I will just have to keep working on that.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'm not KM either, but my thinking on ranks and rank structures is two-fold. On the one hand, it's a useful goal-setting activity paradigm for the student, if the art lends itself into such a breakdown of the path of learning. Second, it's an aid to the instructor, so as to know what the student has already accomplished, what they know, what they need to know, and what to be watching for.

I do agree that rank can be good for goal setting on the part of the student although not all students care to earn rank. People take up the martial arts for a wide variety of reasons, some people might want to lose weight and get in good shape, some people might want to be able to defend themselves, some people are just fascinated with the beauty of the arts, the list goes on and on and there might be many reasons why a student takes up martial arts. Wanting to earn rank is only one of the many reasons and usually students who want to earn rank have other reasons for training as well. Than there are those students who could care less about earning rank and maybe just want to get in shape or they have other reasons.

As for rank being an aid to the instructor, I believe most instructors know where their students are at in terms of skill and ability and what new material they might be ready to learn. Some instructors don't even use rank so they would have to know where their students are at. Usually though, if your style does have a ranking system, you will have to advance in rank before you're taught more advanced material.

As for students who don't care about earning rank, there is nothing wrong with that but there is also nothing wrong with a student wanting to earn rank. I don't hold anything against martial artists who don't care about earning rank as long as they don't try to push that choice on others.

 

[dvcochran]

I share your sentiment toward the belts. We do not have uniforms and no one wears belts during training, so it really doesnt matter. The instructors know everyone by name and how long they have been there except for the people in their first couple of weeks. At our school, you start at beginner class but everything beyond that is by invite only. Essentially the instructor makes a case by case judgement on what you can handle and thats how you move up into more advanced training. There are classes on MT, boxing, jiu jitsu...if you go through "level 1" classes enough times and the instructor thinks you can defend yourself well enough not to get hurt in a higher level, they will invite you...all that said, I am in for self defense period, i really couldnt care less about rank as long as it doesnt bar me from participation in advanced training. I could see, that if i change schools it could be hars for me to prove on paper my capabilities.

You make a good point regarding changing schools. Especially paper certification helps if you travel a lot and workout at other schools. I have done this very many times and it makes breaking the ice with an instructor you have never met before much easier. Nothing worse than a jack leg coming into a Dojang saying they are something they are not.
It sounds like testing is of little or no importance in your environment. It is much easier in smaller groups to work it that way.

 

[TheArtofDave]

I have been studying Krav Maga for just over a year and have never done a belt test. My instructors never push it on me and it hasnt held me back in training but I am the only one of my peers, whom i started with, who isnt going for belts. I wanted to throw this out there to the krav community of why you all think it is or is not important.

This post human you can request to test for rank in Krav Maga but the testing would be by invite only. You have to train under a brown belt to get your black belt once you get to level 5. Hope this helps.

Or you can do it without belts.

 

[Fred Claus]

My take on belts is this. If you can show that you know the material, and you can perform the material to the skill level that your instructor wants, and he can see that without "Belt Testing" you then I would go for it. The belts show how skilled you are in the form. I wasn't big on belts either when I was in Karate as a kid. Mainly because in order to get the higher ones you had to pay a couple hundred to go to a tournament, and win. If you didn't win so many matches you didn't get your belt.

Now if you want the skills for use as an instructor some day, then a belt test would be required. Most certified instructing schools require you to be belt ranked before you can certify to teach. I took KM for 2 years before I tested for a belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My take on belts is this. If you can show that you know the material, and you can perform the material to the skill level that your instructor wants, and he can see that without "Belt Testing" you then I would go for it. The belts show how skilled you are in the form. I wasn't big on belts either when I was in Karate as a kid. Mainly because in order to get the higher ones you had to pay a couple hundred to go to a tournament, and win. If you didn't win so many matches you didn't get your belt.

Now if you want the skills for use as an instructor some day, then a belt test would be required. Most certified instructing schools require you to be belt ranked before you can certify to teach. I took KM for 2 years before I tested for a belt.

My take is that if a program uses belts, then the belts (and the progression through them) is part of the program. If you don't want to do the belts, why join that program?

I'm more than okay with someone not being interested in belts. But if they train with me, they're still going to have to progress through those belts. Why? Because I'm not going to invent a new approach just for one student. No need for it.

 

[TheArtofDave]

I know it's been awhile since I last posted, and the last post was 2018, but I just wanted to post an update.

Krav doesn't usually put an emphasis on belts although they do have a system that goes to black belt. You can request to wear the belts from your dojo/school so can choose to rank up that way if you're more comfortable