Krav Maga
- Thread starter Bob Hubbard
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Loki
Black Belt
I realize that this thread was started almost three years ago, but I'll attempt to correct a few misunderstandings nonetheless:
* Imi Lichtenfeld not only integrated Krav Maga into the army, he invented it. He's the founder of the system. This fact isn't disputed.
* I know of no philosophy studied at black belt and higher.
* www.kravmaga.com is the website of Darren Levine, who pretty much the American Krav Maga market. Peter Muldoon, who supplied the source material for the original post in this thread, is an instructor for Krav Maga Inc. (www.kravmagainc.com) and isn't associated with kravmaga.com as far as I know.
* The way KM seems to be practiced in America reeks of McDojo to me as well. Certification requires, from a professional standpoint, that you have a black belt or higher in a striking art. People with two weels acquaintance with Krav Maga passing off as instructors? Very fishy. My grandmaster jokes that most people who learn KM abroad probably study under Golani soldiers (Golani is a IDF infantry division). I can cite a certain organization (a rather large one) that reeks horribly of McDojo, but I came to understand that this isn't what the site is for. I'll PM anyone interested.
* Professionally, I haven't heard too many good things about foreign Krav Maga either. Krav Maga is NOT a combination of boxing and Jujitsu, boxing and TKD, green eggs and ham or anything else. It is its own style. In fact, Krav Maga has very little grappling.
* When the original Krav Maga Association was disbanded, it was effectively recreated in four different organizations. Krav Magen is one of them. I'm guessing the differences are analogous to Parker and Tracy Kenpo: it's the same system, but here and there there are a few minor changes. "Kimi" is probably "Kami", which is short for Israeli Krav Magen in Hebrew. Another name for the same thing.
* People don't have to go to Israel get good training, they have to go to NYC. Checkout the link to Muldoon's site.
* Imi Lichtenfeld not only integrated Krav Maga into the army, he invented it. He's the founder of the system. This fact isn't disputed.
* I know of no philosophy studied at black belt and higher.
* www.kravmaga.com is the website of Darren Levine, who pretty much the American Krav Maga market. Peter Muldoon, who supplied the source material for the original post in this thread, is an instructor for Krav Maga Inc. (www.kravmagainc.com) and isn't associated with kravmaga.com as far as I know.
* The way KM seems to be practiced in America reeks of McDojo to me as well. Certification requires, from a professional standpoint, that you have a black belt or higher in a striking art. People with two weels acquaintance with Krav Maga passing off as instructors? Very fishy. My grandmaster jokes that most people who learn KM abroad probably study under Golani soldiers (Golani is a IDF infantry division). I can cite a certain organization (a rather large one) that reeks horribly of McDojo, but I came to understand that this isn't what the site is for. I'll PM anyone interested.
* Professionally, I haven't heard too many good things about foreign Krav Maga either. Krav Maga is NOT a combination of boxing and Jujitsu, boxing and TKD, green eggs and ham or anything else. It is its own style. In fact, Krav Maga has very little grappling.
* When the original Krav Maga Association was disbanded, it was effectively recreated in four different organizations. Krav Magen is one of them. I'm guessing the differences are analogous to Parker and Tracy Kenpo: it's the same system, but here and there there are a few minor changes. "Kimi" is probably "Kami", which is short for Israeli Krav Magen in Hebrew. Another name for the same thing.
* People don't have to go to Israel get good training, they have to go to NYC. Checkout the link to Muldoon's site.
masherdong
2nd Black Belt
Here are a couple of links for the International Krav Maga Federation (IKMF). Hopfeully, these links will answer your questions.
www.krav-maga.com
http://www.kravmaga.co.il
www.krav-maga.com
http://www.kravmaga.co.il
Guys, I know little about Krav Maga. I have read a few of your links and the Wikipedia page, but I still have very little understanding. Do they have an official belt system? I read on one site that instead of "belts" they have levels (1 through 5). One site stated that it takes 1 year to get to black belt. Is all of this typical? I come from the TKD world where everything is measured in belts and it takes a while to get to black belt.
hungryninja
Orange Belt
Depends on the organization, but in general, it has a belt system with equivalent levels. It takes many years to get to black belt (invitation only). There is usually a one year minimum requirement at brown belt before you are eligible or invited to test for black belt.
Unlike so called 'traditional' arts like aikido and karate which take years to master, KM is designed to have people ready for combat in a matter of weeks. Black belts in all systems mean different things. In Krav a black belt is an indication that you have completed the syllabus to a certain level of competence. To suggest that it should take years to get a black belt in Krav would mean the system was not doing what it is designed to do. If the Jews in Poland had to train for five years to be competent, the war would have finished before they were ready to fight back. Krav is a simple system, built on reflex reaction, like Systema. It has certain principles that apply across a range of attacks. It applies gross motor skills and it is not designed for grappling or the ground. It assumes multiple attackers at all times so the finishing moves are quick and brutal.
I am not saying that there are no McDojos in Krav but really it is the demonstration of competence that leads to the grade and the ability to teach that leads to higher qualification. Time between grading depends on the number of classes attended. If someone has a grounding in Muay Thai they will pick it up quicker than someone from say aikido even though there are similar principles across all systems. Personally, my martial art background equipped me well for Krav and I am now teaching bits of Krav to my karate class.
Perhaps the hardest part with Krav is knowing when to stop hitting. That is, if your attacker is no longer a threat, you need to have the ability to use self control. For that reason I don't want any guys under 18 training, unless they are my existing karate students (two only under 18, one being my grandson
)
:asian:
I am not saying that there are no McDojos in Krav but really it is the demonstration of competence that leads to the grade and the ability to teach that leads to higher qualification. Time between grading depends on the number of classes attended. If someone has a grounding in Muay Thai they will pick it up quicker than someone from say aikido even though there are similar principles across all systems. Personally, my martial art background equipped me well for Krav and I am now teaching bits of Krav to my karate class.
Perhaps the hardest part with Krav is knowing when to stop hitting. That is, if your attacker is no longer a threat, you need to have the ability to use self control. For that reason I don't want any guys under 18 training, unless they are my existing karate students (two only under 18, one being my grandson
):asian:
sinthetik_mistik
Purple Belt
ok I'll put my two cents in. a lot of people seem to be under the impression that Krav Maga is just a bunch of dudes kicking each other in the balls and sticking their fingers in each other's eyes. this does exist in Krav, but there is much, much more. the stamp of legitimacy in Krav Maga in America is Krav Maga Worldwide, founded by Darren Levine, who trained directly under Imi Lichtenfeld, the creator of Krav Maga. Krav Maga gyms in America that are not certified by Krav Maga Worldwide may or may not be legit I'm not sure. My first question is this, if Krav Maga is so simplistic, how come each belt test takes 3.5-4 hours, sometimes more than that? I took Brazilian Jiujitsu for over two years, and I came to Krav Maga early one day and watched one of the more advanced classes, and saw them practicing several submissions that I recognized from Brazilian Jiujitsu. it also incorporates Judo and Wrestling. so that is my response to people saying Krav has no ground game. in my first month of taking Krav I learned like 8 different ways to escape from various types of choke holds, I learned 7 different types of elbow attacks, I learned how to defend against multiple attackers, I learned Boxing footwork, palm strikes, punches, roundhouse kicks with both the shin and the foot, all types of different drills, and more. and i'm still a white belt! yes, i learned several ways to attack the groin, I learned the most efficient way to eye gouge, and so on and so forth. Krav Maga is and has been continuously evolving. started off just Wrestling and Boxing basically, now it incorporates like a dozen martial arts. Krav Maga may not always win in a fair fight, but it is not designed to fight fair! i would say it is a way to become a professional at fighting dirty, but that is just one aspect.
I respond to this respectfully, as many people respond to threads just to counter and disregard what commenters say. This isn't intended for that, but to rather share Krav philosophies with people who are not familiar with them. I don't know how to quote individual sentences, so I am just going to copy and paste. This is not intended so much for sinthetik's sake, but more to inform readers who are not familiar with Krav. I am certainly not an expert on all things Krav but I am in my sixth year of Krav after transitioning from traditional martial arts, and have pretty much jumped into Krav with both feet. I have mostly trained with KMWW and IKMF, and have some experience with IKMA.
"the stamp of legitimacy in Krav Maga in America is Krav Maga Worldwide".
KMWW is great and much of my training comes from them. There are a few other Krav associations that are just as legitimate. Many Krav associations tout how different they are from each other, but from my experience the techniques are very similar. KMWW, KMG, IKMA, IKMF, and KMA come to mind for being legitimate. They are all very good. Generally speaking there is the commonality between them that they don't want the term "Krav Maga" to turn into a generic term like "Karate". They want the techniques and lineage to all go back to Imi.
"if Krav Maga is so simplistic, how come each belt test takes 3.5-4 hours?"
Krav Maga techniques should be simple. The purpose of it is to protect oneself and go home to their family. Krav Maga is not a martial art and doesn't claim to be one. It is a system of self defense. A person should only have to remember as few techniques as possible so they are more effective in a high-stress situation. An outsider may look at Krav and say "All of the techniques look the same." It should be that way, as practitioners shouldn't be weighed down with a multitude of techniques to have to remember. The core of Krav is 360 blocking, a few punches, a few kicks, plucking, and escaping. For the most part, the techniques are based on that. Not all Krav tests are long, but mostly it is to put students into stress-test scenarios. To be fair, most higher level martial arts testing is in the 3-4 hours range and longer.
"...that is my response to people saying Krav has no ground game."
There is an inaccurate perception to Krav not having a ground game. I always saw Krav's groundfighting philosophy as this: If I am on the ground trying to out-wrestle someone, then I have failed as a Kravist. Krav's overall philosophy is to survive and go home. If I am engaging in a grappling match then something failed on my end, which ultimately led to me being taken to the ground. I'm generalizing, of course, as I could have been sucker-punched or completely surprised, but my main focus, as a Kravist, is to get back up and run away. Most of Krav's ground techniques have the focal point of getting back up to run. There is focus on groins strikes, eye rakes, etc, anything to create an opening to allow an escape. IKMA has implemented quite a bit more grappling techniques in their curriculum. As a bjj practitioner myself, I look at Krav's grappling like this: A Kravist could not out-grapple a bjj practitioner if they are just grappling tournament style, but a Kravist is very hard to take down and very hard to keep down because they are not trained to "wrestle back" (which would give the bjj practitioner the advantage.) Kravists are taught to keep moving and keep fighting (retsev).
"in my first month of taking Krav I learned like 8 different ways to escape from various types of choke holds"
I say this respectfully, and more for clarification for non-kravists, but if it's KMWW curriculum you probably learned one way to escape 8 different chokes. You probably learned single and double plucking from the front, side, and rear. If it's on the ground you probably learned shrimp-to-pluck. Headlocks and guillotines would fall into different category, so you were probably including those as well in your count of eight.
"Krav Maga is and has been continuously evolving"
Yes it is, within parameters, and I think this is where some people take liberties and just create random stuff and call it Krav Maga. Sometimes I am guilty of Krav-Fu, which is essentially blending Krav Maga with other martial arts. Krav Maga is evolving within most of the main Krav Maga organizations, but the new techniques all fall within the Krav parameters. It's not a random martial artist blending what he/she learned at a Krav Camp with his/her existing martial art...at least it shouldn't be.
"Krav Maga may not always win in a fair fight, but it is not designed to fight fair!"
I had this exact conversation with a Kenpo-guy the other day when he asked who would win in a fight between a Kravist and a Kenpo-guy. My explanation was that the fight would never happen in the first place. Krav Maga, by definition, is a system of self defense. Their entire philosophy is to defend, survive, and go home. If a Kravist gets into an altercation it's because he/she was attacked and not because he or she decided to put fists up and engage in a fight. An agreed-upon contest (a fight) wouldn't happen for a true kravist. A lot of Krav's self defense philosophy is based on element of surprise or breaking the OODA loop (something Kravists are aware of.) If a kravist is attacked, then they go into Krav-mode, but a true kravist would never put up their fists and agree to a fight.
I hope sinthetik doesn't mind me elaborating on some of his points. Many people don't understand Krav philosophies so the intention of my response was more for their benefits. I was talking to a Hapkido-guy once and we began to talk about Krav. He said, "Those Krav guys are crazy." I think that's the perception (that we are crazy), and if it keeps us out of altercations, I'll take it. I think Krav fills in the self defense gaps that some traditional martial arts have. After 30 years of traditional martial arts, Krav was a really cool change of style for me.
This weekend I was at a gun and knife threat defense seminar put on by a former police officer and someone who was contracted by KMWW back in the day to help with weapons defenses. He said this about weapons defense: "It's not about the disarm, it's about the beating." His point was to constantly attack and fight to create the opening for escape (whatever that escape will be.)
I've been to many Krav school where the instructor makes fun of traditional martial arts, and I also have talked to many traditional martial artists that don't understand Krav. As both a kravist and a traditional martial artist I can say that Krav is it's own animal. There are things, however, that traditional martial arts teaches that Krav can't teach because Krav is not a martial art.
Sorry about this response being so long. Thanks sinthetik for being up some great points.
sinthetik_mistik
Purple Belt
sinthetik_mistik
Purple Belt
I'll respond to this in depth later i have class
sinthetik_mistik
Purple Belt
Sorry about this response being so long. Thanks sinthetik for being up some great points.[/QUOTE]
thank you for the elaboration. you made some great points as well. I agree with some of the things you said, and disagree with others. Krav Maga Worldwide is the only form I've worked with. You sound like you are more advanced than me. At my gym, all belt tests take at least 3 hours usually more, even the early tests. plucking is one way to escape from a chokehold, but it is not the only way. I have learned ways to escape a chokehold that do not apply plucking. About ground game, I understand that the Krav philosophy is to avoid going to the ground at all costs, but sometimes the fight goes to the ground whether you like it or not, so learning to defend against submissions can be valuable. that being said, if you fight hard and dirty they will have a hard time submitting you (just my opinion). As far as Krav not being a martial art, most or all martial arts start out as a system of self defense. The difference is that most of them turn into sports. There is no sport aspect to Krav whatsoever... so yeah I think Krav Maga is a martial art... not a sport martial art, but a martial art nonetheless. Yes, Krav says to avoid the fight if at all possible... but as soon as someone grabs you or throws a punch you are in your rights to fight back. as soon as he stops attacking, it is no longer legal to continue. anyway thanks for your elaboration... feel free to elaborate on my posts as you see fit.
thank you for the elaboration. you made some great points as well. I agree with some of the things you said, and disagree with others. Krav Maga Worldwide is the only form I've worked with. You sound like you are more advanced than me. At my gym, all belt tests take at least 3 hours usually more, even the early tests. plucking is one way to escape from a chokehold, but it is not the only way. I have learned ways to escape a chokehold that do not apply plucking. About ground game, I understand that the Krav philosophy is to avoid going to the ground at all costs, but sometimes the fight goes to the ground whether you like it or not, so learning to defend against submissions can be valuable. that being said, if you fight hard and dirty they will have a hard time submitting you (just my opinion). As far as Krav not being a martial art, most or all martial arts start out as a system of self defense. The difference is that most of them turn into sports. There is no sport aspect to Krav whatsoever... so yeah I think Krav Maga is a martial art... not a sport martial art, but a martial art nonetheless. Yes, Krav says to avoid the fight if at all possible... but as soon as someone grabs you or throws a punch you are in your rights to fight back. as soon as he stops attacking, it is no longer legal to continue. anyway thanks for your elaboration... feel free to elaborate on my posts as you see fit.
TheArtofDave
Blue Belt
They don't use ranked belts in class but Krav Maga does have a belt system in place. There are Krav black belts out there. I found that interesting.
From KMWW it's Level 1-Yellow, Level 2- Orange Level 3- Green Level 4- Blue and Level 5 is brown and black testing. You can excel pretty quick depending on the testing times. I think it's a year between each. And it's by invitation only.
To get to black belt in Krav you need to have trained with a brown belt. So that would be how to get it done. You could ask your instructor if you wanted that tma feel in your Krav training
From KMWW it's Level 1-Yellow, Level 2- Orange Level 3- Green Level 4- Blue and Level 5 is brown and black testing. You can excel pretty quick depending on the testing times. I think it's a year between each. And it's by invitation only.
To get to black belt in Krav you need to have trained with a brown belt. So that would be how to get it done. You could ask your instructor if you wanted that tma feel in your Krav training
sinthetik_mistik
Purple Belt
i would say that Krav is not a "traditional" martial art because it has no forms to memorize and it does not have any competitions or sporting aspect to it. I think of it as more of a modern martial art. I think most martial arts were invented as a form of self defense, which is exactly what Krav is. i might be repeating myself a little here, but I think this is an important point.
sinthetik_mistik
Purple Belt
yeah actually the Krav gym I train at both of the head instructors are certified black belts under Krav Maga Worldwide. they are also certified as instructors. the funny thing is they are husband and wife
Traditional MA weren’t created as a form as self defense per se, they were created with the intention to engage in combat.
sinthetik_mistik
Purple Belt
well in any case I think Krav Maga is indeed a martial art. it isn't a traditional martial art, it isn't a competition martial art, and it isn't a sport martial art. but it is a martial art
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