I thought he was a socialist bastard.:angel:
Why Ann Coulter is great.
- Thread starter billc
- Start date
It's all the same, didn't you listen?!
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I'm just a little shocked that billcihak is trying to link modern Democrats to politicians from the 18th and 19 centuries. That's as absurd as modern Republicans trying to claim some political affiliation with Abraham Lincoln, as though the two are in any way related.
oh, THAT is the shocking part....
I thought throwing all non Fox ones in a blender and giving it a good whirl was shocking....
Steve
Mostly Harmless
OP
- Thread Starter
- #247
Socialism:http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/socialism
so·cial·ism (ssh-lzm) KEY
NOUN:
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.
Hey guys, I get it. Your lefty system of "social organization" kills 100 million people, that is kinda embarrassing. So you guys think, hey, let's say the Nazis are actually "right wing" so that we can say, "you guys do it too." Unfortunately, you are stuck with the results. It has been a long time coming, but the truth is finally getting out. Nationa Socialsim or international socialism, it just isn't a good way to "socially organize," especially when there are no checks on government power.
so·cial·ism (ssh-lzm) KEY
NOUN:
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.
Hey guys, I get it. Your lefty system of "social organization" kills 100 million people, that is kinda embarrassing. So you guys think, hey, let's say the Nazis are actually "right wing" so that we can say, "you guys do it too." Unfortunately, you are stuck with the results. It has been a long time coming, but the truth is finally getting out. Nationa Socialsim or international socialism, it just isn't a good way to "socially organize," especially when there are no checks on government power.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #248
As I was looking up the new book, "365 ways to drive liberals crazy" I saw another recommendation, "The Politically incorrect guide to socialism." You guys might want to check the two books out. I know, if only you had known before Christmas.
Tez, 365 was written by a Brit. you might really enjoy this coming from a fellow countryman.
Tez, 365 was written by a Brit. you might really enjoy this coming from a fellow countryman.
Are you hearing yourself?
Sean
Steve
Mostly Harmless
For the record, I've said many times that comparing anyone to h the nazis is despicable. that includes you.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #251
From the politically incorrect guide to socialism, from the economist Ludwig von Mises:
Mises was one of the first to fully appreciate that the Stalin-Hitler, socialist-fascist, left-right split was an illusion, and that the totalitarian movement based in Berlin was substantially similar to the one based in Moscow. "The usual terminology of political language is stupid," he wrote. What is "left" and what is "right"? Why should Hitler be "right" and Stalin, his temporary friend, be "left"?
Mises was one of the first to fully appreciate that the Stalin-Hitler, socialist-fascist, left-right split was an illusion, and that the totalitarian movement based in Berlin was substantially similar to the one based in Moscow. "The usual terminology of political language is stupid," he wrote. What is "left" and what is "right"? Why should Hitler be "right" and Stalin, his temporary friend, be "left"?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #253
from the politically incorrect guide to socialism.
Putting the Socialism In National Socialism
"We are enemies, deadly enemies, of today's capitalist economic system with its exploitation of the economically weak, its unfair wage system, its immoral way of judging the worth of human beings in terms of their wealth and their money."---Gregor Strasser, Nazi Idealogue
"The state shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens...the abolition of all incomes unearned by work... the ruthless confiscation of all war profits...the NATIONALIZATION OF ALL BUSINESSES THAT HAVE BEEN FORMED INTO CORPORATIONS(my stress is on this part, not the books)...profit-sharing in large enterprises...extensive development of insurance for old-age...land reform suitable to our NATIONAL requirements."
---Nazi Party Platform 1920
"We are socialists, wa are enemies of today's capitalist economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions."
---Adolf Hitler
Putting the Socialism In National Socialism
"We are enemies, deadly enemies, of today's capitalist economic system with its exploitation of the economically weak, its unfair wage system, its immoral way of judging the worth of human beings in terms of their wealth and their money."---Gregor Strasser, Nazi Idealogue
"The state shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens...the abolition of all incomes unearned by work... the ruthless confiscation of all war profits...the NATIONALIZATION OF ALL BUSINESSES THAT HAVE BEEN FORMED INTO CORPORATIONS(my stress is on this part, not the books)...profit-sharing in large enterprises...extensive development of insurance for old-age...land reform suitable to our NATIONAL requirements."
---Nazi Party Platform 1920
"We are socialists, wa are enemies of today's capitalist economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions."
---Adolf Hitler
Blade96
Senior Master
I can't thnk why I would enjoy it, the Liberals over here definitely aren't the same as American Liberals and no where near your definition.
It may not bother you but while you are randomly throwing numbers around about how many people are killed by the Nazis and blithely discussing deaths etc that some of those deaths were of family members of some of us on this board. The other point is that many, many Americans on this board have family members who fought and many have died fighting against what is accepted by all of us as the right wing fascism of the Nazis.
For you this might be an amusing little foray into winding up 'liberals', knowing that is a place that prides itself on being polite and trying to understand others points of views but for many of us you go too far and cheapen the memory of people who should be remembered with honour and respect.
If you continue to fly in the face of conventional terms for political viewpoints you really can't expect to be taken seriously as any sort of political commentator or frankly even having a point of view that is remotely credible.
Blade96
Senior Master
tez even if he didnt offending some ppl here who's relatives died in the holocaust or wwII he still wouldnt have a point of view thats remotely credible, I'd love to know who taught him this strange version of history and definitions he's talking about here on the boards!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #258
I have to point out that conservatives here in the united states are often called facists and nazis. from what I have been showing with my posts, there is no similarity between an American conservative and anything to do with either facists or Nazis. American conservatives are not racists, homophobes, nor do we hate women or foreigners. These are the accusations made against us everyday. Here on this post bushidomartialarts put on a Henry Rollins video, where he calls Ann Coulter a facist, you know Stevebjj the thing you think is so despicable, and goes on to show that he, henry rollins is the true misogynist. Guys like him are why republicans had to help women in America get the right to vote.
Socialism is a leftwing movement. Identifying it for what it is may help to keep the worst parts of it from happening again. Too many people believe in big state nannyism and central planning. Is this totalitarian befhavior, no. It is however a precursor. the socialists in Germany, Italy and Russia, China, vietnam and cambodia did not begin with the horrors of socialism first. They began by getting people to dismiss their individuality in favor of the group. American conservatives believe in the rights of all people, especially the rights of the individual. they believe in a small, tightly contstrained government so that these nightmares of socialism will not happen. A large central planning state, with no checks on power, that has people thought of as groups instead of individuals, is the recipe that led to the disasters of the 20th century. So no, I will continue to point out the socialists responsible for these acts of murder.
It continues to amaze me that communists, wether you think that National socialists are right or left, continue to exist in the open. How many people does a movement have to murder before they at least change their name.
Are you digusted whenever you see people walking around political demonstrations carrying pro-communism sighns? If not, why? they are as bad as people walking around with nazi swastikas and yet they get a pass. Here in the states, the most anyone ever thinks about the communists is that some writers in hollywood, who were actually communist party members, were wrongly pointed out as members of the communist party and weren't allowed to write scripts for "the twighlight zone." If you see someone at a political rally, and they are proud members of the communist party, you should ask them if they are ashamed by their association with the mass murdering movement of the 20th century. The nazis are known for what they are, the communists are not. That needs to change. If you want to keep mass murder from happening again, call out the fools who support the beliefs that led to the death camps and gulags.
Socialism is a leftwing movement. Identifying it for what it is may help to keep the worst parts of it from happening again. Too many people believe in big state nannyism and central planning. Is this totalitarian befhavior, no. It is however a precursor. the socialists in Germany, Italy and Russia, China, vietnam and cambodia did not begin with the horrors of socialism first. They began by getting people to dismiss their individuality in favor of the group. American conservatives believe in the rights of all people, especially the rights of the individual. they believe in a small, tightly contstrained government so that these nightmares of socialism will not happen. A large central planning state, with no checks on power, that has people thought of as groups instead of individuals, is the recipe that led to the disasters of the 20th century. So no, I will continue to point out the socialists responsible for these acts of murder.
It continues to amaze me that communists, wether you think that National socialists are right or left, continue to exist in the open. How many people does a movement have to murder before they at least change their name.
Are you digusted whenever you see people walking around political demonstrations carrying pro-communism sighns? If not, why? they are as bad as people walking around with nazi swastikas and yet they get a pass. Here in the states, the most anyone ever thinks about the communists is that some writers in hollywood, who were actually communist party members, were wrongly pointed out as members of the communist party and weren't allowed to write scripts for "the twighlight zone." If you see someone at a political rally, and they are proud members of the communist party, you should ask them if they are ashamed by their association with the mass murdering movement of the 20th century. The nazis are known for what they are, the communists are not. That needs to change. If you want to keep mass murder from happening again, call out the fools who support the beliefs that led to the death camps and gulags.
Do you really think we are so stupid that we don't know about the Soviets and the Gulags?
We aren't as poorly educated as you seem to think we are and pointing all this out as if we'd never heard of anything that went on in the Soviet Union is insulting our intelligence .
You seem to have a knack of mixing up history to make it seem what you want it to be, the problem is that you have some idea of what went on but the picture is very blurry. You fudge things together to make the history say what you want it to say.
No one here is an apologist for the Soviet era, no one here is saying it was the ideal place to be but we do know the differences between the Soviets and the Nazis, you do not seem to and lump them altogether. That is a dangerous thing to do, once you start making history fit your ideas you are in all sorts of trouble.
Years ago the British Empire was seen as a good thing, it was taught that the British brought civilisation, law, order and education to places that had never had them before. It could never be a bad thing. Then came a time when everything about the Empire was demonised, it was the worst thing ever. Now it's looked at properly and it's realised that those days had good and bad things about them. We must look at things properly, face things that are bad about our countries as well as looking at the good things. We have to look at things objectively if we are to understand history and not to be make the mistakes of the past.
You also need to understand the character of countries, claiming that in China the communists got rid of the people's individuality is incorrect, you need to understand what life was and is like in China first. You are simply drawing with a very broad brush a picture of half the world and demonising it as being 'socialist' and therefore bad.
When you are whinging on about communists, you need to understand what communism is. In itself it's an inanimate political system which is idealistic, it's not worse or better than conservatism. The problem comes in any political idealogy when people put things into practice. It's the inherant human flaws that makes political systems go awry. If you had perfect people, communism and capitalism would both work fine. However when you have power hungry tryranical egotistical men no system would work well. It's not the systems that are at fault it's the humans.
Now you really should stop being a big girl's blouse and admit you have things **** about face, oh and stop treating us as if we are thick as two short planks. History is a favourite subject of mine and I have qualifications to prove it, I also believe in being objective and looking at all the facts good and bad so don't generalise and tell me that American conservatives are perfect, they aren't, they are human, just like the rest of us with all that means, warts and all.
There's no reason why people who believe in communism should hide what they believe and there's no reason for an Italian, American or British communist to be ashamed at what when on in the USSR, they could be ashamed or sad that it all happened in the name of communism, as we in the UK can be ashamed of what went on in the name of our country, the Americans can say the same. Communists are no more inherently bad than anyone else. You are in danger of being a bigot if you demonise them.
We aren't as poorly educated as you seem to think we are and pointing all this out as if we'd never heard of anything that went on in the Soviet Union is insulting our intelligence .
You seem to have a knack of mixing up history to make it seem what you want it to be, the problem is that you have some idea of what went on but the picture is very blurry. You fudge things together to make the history say what you want it to say.
No one here is an apologist for the Soviet era, no one here is saying it was the ideal place to be but we do know the differences between the Soviets and the Nazis, you do not seem to and lump them altogether. That is a dangerous thing to do, once you start making history fit your ideas you are in all sorts of trouble.
Years ago the British Empire was seen as a good thing, it was taught that the British brought civilisation, law, order and education to places that had never had them before. It could never be a bad thing. Then came a time when everything about the Empire was demonised, it was the worst thing ever. Now it's looked at properly and it's realised that those days had good and bad things about them. We must look at things properly, face things that are bad about our countries as well as looking at the good things. We have to look at things objectively if we are to understand history and not to be make the mistakes of the past.
You also need to understand the character of countries, claiming that in China the communists got rid of the people's individuality is incorrect, you need to understand what life was and is like in China first. You are simply drawing with a very broad brush a picture of half the world and demonising it as being 'socialist' and therefore bad.
When you are whinging on about communists, you need to understand what communism is. In itself it's an inanimate political system which is idealistic, it's not worse or better than conservatism. The problem comes in any political idealogy when people put things into practice. It's the inherant human flaws that makes political systems go awry. If you had perfect people, communism and capitalism would both work fine. However when you have power hungry tryranical egotistical men no system would work well. It's not the systems that are at fault it's the humans.
Now you really should stop being a big girl's blouse and admit you have things **** about face, oh and stop treating us as if we are thick as two short planks. History is a favourite subject of mine and I have qualifications to prove it, I also believe in being objective and looking at all the facts good and bad so don't generalise and tell me that American conservatives are perfect, they aren't, they are human, just like the rest of us with all that means, warts and all.
There's no reason why people who believe in communism should hide what they believe and there's no reason for an Italian, American or British communist to be ashamed at what when on in the USSR, they could be ashamed or sad that it all happened in the name of communism, as we in the UK can be ashamed of what went on in the name of our country, the Americans can say the same. Communists are no more inherently bad than anyone else. You are in danger of being a bigot if you demonise them.
Well these countries didn’t have any tradition of democracy at all, the people living there had always lived under totalitarian regimes of one stripe or another. They had no concept of individual rights as we know them.
To say that the people in these countries voluntarily gave up their individual rights is an erroneous hypothesis at best, any rights they may have had were taken away at the point of a gun, a very big gun targeting themselves, their families and everyone they knew. When someone is threatening to kill your children unless you behave, you will fall in line pretty damn quickly.
May I ask where all this is going? We know totalitarianism is bad, be it an absolute monarchy, fascism or any of the various forms of communism. We know democracy is not perfect but it seems to work reasonably well. We know liberal, conservative, democratic, and socialist have different meanings in different parts of the world.
So what? What is the point to the discussion?
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