Who will impact EPAK the most in the next 10 years?

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Maybe we should all back Jeff Speakman, because if nothing else when it comes to Kenpo at the movies....well...."he's been there and done that" !
Rich

I wouldn't back Speakman with an ice pick. Perfect example of what happens when ego comes before commitment. Picture a self absorbed narcissistic blob of goo walking about on two sticks. Got that picture in your mind? Good. Should look a lot like Speakman.

Regards,

Dave

 

[kenpoworks]

wow...seems a bit harsh...you have issues with him?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

You could say that.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I wouldn't back Speakman with an ice pick. Perfect example of what happens when ego comes before commitment. Picture a self absorbed narcissistic blob of goo walking about on two sticks. Got that picture in your mind? Good. Should look a lot like Speakman.

Regards,

Dave

LOL, I couldn't agree more.

DarK LorD

 

[Brother John]

My opinion on who would make the greatest impact on EPAK in the next 10

one of the seniors that are willing to breakaway and take that next daring step.

If one of these seniors are to influence EPAK it would have to be done on a national if not international level.

This person, in my opinion will have to even break away from thier current teachings and venture into new territory to make this impact. I


To take EPAK into the future and have a noticable impact I would like to see that someone begin to unify the art in a way that will allow and recognize the many different associations and their versions and at the same time find a common ground that we can all call American Kenpo as GM Parker envisoned it.

So to conclude, my vote is for all the people mentioned above have the ability to impact EPAK in the next ten years. It would be interesting to see, and I think it's been talked about before, those individuals listed in the poll and a few others to come together and find that common ground I spoke of.

Steve Goemmel

Steve-
I like a lot of the sentiments that you've put forth. In some ways much of what you are wanting to see is already happening I think. But the idea of 'grand-unification' is...I think...both impossible and wouldn't be beneficial.

Impossible: Because it would be a political maelstrom trying to find out which senior would lead it...what would qualify them to lead it, why should everyone listen to "him"...etc. Not only would the seniors who would or could be up for the position need to jockey for it...but those loyal to each senior would do some major 'jockying' too. THEN there's the fact that I couldn't imagine anyone wanting the headache of trying to do such a thing. It'd take one major ego to want it.

Not beneficial:Kenpo has permutated through the different camps/associations/organizations...etc. There are many different flavors now, many different methods. Many would like to say: "we are doing it the RIGHT way".... some would say "We are doing it the way Mr. Parker wanted, because we haven't changed a thing since he died"...still others.."We are doing it the way Mr. Parker wanted because we HAVE changed things and evolved."....etc. I think that this diversity is a very good thing. Many good things can come from it now and the options to chose from are greater. I don't recall the exact quote but I recall someone asking Mr. Parker whom they should look to after his death to find who knows HIS Kenpo....Mr. Parker said something like "Look to about 20 of my personal students and you'd have a good start." I like that. To my way of thinking Mr. Parker, in creating American Kenpo Karate, didn't plant a tree.... but started off a fantastic grove of trees. A single tree grows old, drops seeds and dies. That single tree could be likened to Mr. Parker I think. But those seeds, if they fell on good soil (Good students) "Take" and they weather the elements....and produce their own tree....much like the original, but different....very much their own.

You can't try to cram all of the grove into "One Tree" again. It just wouldn't work. If we tried, we'd have to shave off everything that made each one distinct.

just something to think about....

Your Brother
John

 

[kenpoworks]

You could say that.

So does he have any redeeming qualities at all for you? it seems like real hate!
There must be something because Ed Parker chose him to present Kenpo to the silver screen.
Anyone who makes a video series on Kenpo gets critisized!( by people who have'nt made a video, of course).
Anyone who even puts the shortest of vid clips on a web page gets viciously attacked for doing it (look what happened to Clyde when put his vid up....it was like armagedon for a while on the KN).
Does the root of dislike stem from Senior instructors with a "it should've been me on the Big Screen" kind of complex
Is your dislike based on the fact that he is/was/could be again a famous MA Movie Star.
We all have faults, is it that his are emphasized because of his high profile job, so people tend to focus on them.
I do not know and I am Just asking with no offence to anyone.
Is there a case for the defence ?
Rich

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. The guy was a movie actor, and from all accounts, once a solid martial artist.

2. I've never heard of anybody arguing that they're doing what Mr. Parker wanted, because they haven't changed a thing or evolved in the slightest, though I have repeatedly heard folks making that claim about others in order to pump up their own ideas and practices.

 

[kenpoworks]

2. I've never heard of anybody arguing that they're doing what Mr. Parker wanted, because they haven't changed a thing or evolved in the slightest, though I have repeatedly heard folks making that claim about others in order to pump up their own ideas and practices.

Thanks for the input Robert, I am not sure I fully get the gist of your 2nd statement though!

Respectfully
Richard

 

[Brother John]

2. I've never heard of anybody arguing that they're doing what Mr. Parker wanted, because they haven't changed a thing or evolved in the slightest, though I have repeatedly heard folks making that claim about others in order to pump up their own ideas and practices.

Maybe I'm just tired....I don't understand what you are saying with this.


I'm just saying that some feel they honor Mr. Parker by leaving things the way they were when he died and some that feel they honor him by continuing to change/evolve. I don't see anything wrong with either approach as long as you are aware of which one you are doing and why.

Your Brother
John

 

[kenpofist]

When the american kenpo community can once have peace between factions. each style is an expression of its leader. not every one moves the same because body types are different nor is there someone that moves the best out of everybody. We cannot teach our students love honor respect compassion and self discipline if we dont respect one another. I believe that Professor Jones has expressed his views with joint locks and pressure point theory Mr mills has dynamite speed Mr tatum as well has something to offer.. I dont feel anyone is better than the other each has a different view of the art. what Professor jones chooses to teach in our Wu Shen Pai system is whats best for us. I would not train with anyone else
Look for Advanced Kenpo Karate the Wu Shen Pai method in stores soon.
those of you out there that want to know what we are doing should pick it up

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

When the american kenpo community can once have peace between factions. each style is an expression of its leader. not every one moves the same because body types are different nor is there someone that moves the best out of everybody. We cannot teach our students love honor respect compassion and self discipline if we dont respect one another. I believe that Professor Jones has expressed his views with joint locks and pressure point theory Mr mills has dynamite speed Mr tatum as well has something to offer.. I dont feel anyone is better than the other each has a different view of the art. what Professor jones chooses to teach in our Wu Shen Pai system is whats best for us. I would not train with anyone else
Look for Advanced Kenpo Karate the Wu Shen Pai method in stores soon.
those of you out there that want to know what we are doing should pick it up

Well, I see this is your first post here, and to be honest, Bob Jones can't lead his *** to the toilet.

The Wu Shen Pai system is nothing more than Bob's interpretation of Kenpo, and not a good one at that. We won't be seeing any Wu Shen Pai material on the market anytime soon. I do have a suggestion that you come to the LTKKA Vegas camp and tell me if you really think what Bob does is better after seeing the instructors there. I attained my 7th the hard way, blood, sweat, and a new puncture wound from a wooden knife held by Frank Trejo yesterday, can you say the same for Bob Jones, no? Bob wasn't happy with his 5th ranking and knew he wasn't going to be getting any more any time soon, he still had much to learn. So, he called some guys, paid his money and biff, boom, bam, he's an 8th, promoted by a JUDO person no less, and says he's the creator of a new system, so he's now a FOUNDER (LOL) and SOKE.

Bob Jones may impact EPAK, but in the most negative way, in fact, I think I'll just start calling him Al Farnsworth Jones.

DarK LorD

 

[Brother John]

Look for Advanced Kenpo Karate the Wu Shen Pai method in stores soon.
those of you out there that want to know what we are doing should pick it up

Welcome to Martial Talk

It's good that you are proud to be where you are from, but the above quoted statement MIGHT be kinda.....I dunno....SPAM-ish.

might check da rulz


Clyde:

Well, I see this is your first post here, and to be honest, Bob Jones can't lead his *** to the toilet.

See man.....THIS is why you were removed from your post as the door greeter!

;-)
Your Brother
John

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. I meant that I get tired of these pseudo-arguments built around the notion that it's all a simple matter of, "evolution," vs. "tradition," when a) that isn't even remotely the issue; b) the ideas of 'evolution,' and 'tradition,' forlks are trying to get me to buy are far too simplistic to be useful.

2. I've met and worked out with some of Mr. Jones' students, and they're nice people and (the ones I've met, anyway) solid martial artists.I've heard good things about their work ethic on the mat, from some interesting sources. I've also worked out with Mr. Jones, sparred with him, and seen him teach. He isn't doing anything, or teaching anything, that would lead me to believe that he knows more, or can do more, than I do.

3. I still think the poll question, as well as the subsequent discussion, shows our limitations as martial artists and thinking people a lot more clearly than it shows anything else.

 

[Brother John]

1. I meant that I get tired of these pseudo-arguments built around the notion that it's all a simple matter of, "evolution," vs. "tradition," when a) that isn't even remotely the issue; b) the ideas of 'evolution,' and 'tradition,' forlks are trying to get me to buy are far too simplistic to be useful.

Thanks for answering my question, but as usual... one answered question leads me to several more questions; especially when your reply seems to be very open ended...not clearly defined. I'm just trying to get a handle on your gripe.

Why is the discussion about 'evolution' vs 'tradition' a "Pseudo" argument?? Just wondering what you thought invalidates it and keeps it from being a 'real' argument.

You say that the "evolution vs tradition" argument "Isn't even remotely the issue". OK. Why do you feel it isn't the issue? What then IS the issue in your estimation?

You said that the "ideas of 'evolution,' and 'tradition,' forlks are trying to get me to buy are far too simplistic to be useful."
What do you think their argument is? IF you understand it, in other words, could you tell us what you think their point of view is? Then also what makes it "too simplistic"? AND: Why is a 'simple' argument not useful?

Thanks

Your Brother
John

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. It's a fake argument because, a) it gets thrown at guys like me every time we disagree with certain shibboleths; b) it's a fake argument because the, "evolution," folks never really seem to be doing anything that's actually evolutionary; c) it's a fake argument because the, "tradition," guys actually evolve things all the time if they're any good; d) it's a fake argument because it represents a fundamental misapprehension of the radical nature of kenpo; e) it's a fake argument because guys like me don't have any quarrel with the notion of genuine development of any martial arts system.

2. Better approaches: a) what's the relationship between "personal," evolution and the alteration of the kenpo system; b) was there ever really a solid system in the first place?; c) is kenpo actually a radical martial art, or simply one more articulation of martial art principles?; d) what is the relation between the importation of, "outside," materials (i.e. arnis, grappling, judo, etc.); e) does kenpo HAVE an, "outside," from which we borrow needed advances; f) what is the real status of the struggle "sublevels," vs. "advances," in kenpo; g) why do practitioners tend to fetishize either the system, or their, "radical," alterations of the system; h) what are the specific histories of those teachers associated with either the development of the, "hidden," material in kenpo or the development of an, "evolutionary," kenpo; i) what parts of the specific relations between," the kenpo system," (assuming that there is one) and the progress of particular students can we identify; j) to what extent is the whole discussion a simple cover-up for power trips? k) why is our focus on development of the system rather than development of the individuals practicing it? l) how does one establish that changed techniques and drills represent some, "evolutionary," development? m) how do we separate useful developments from changes that are made for change's sake or for ego gratification, n) how do we separate retaining necessary basics, sets, forms, techniques and theory from hanging onto tradition for tradition's sake, or for ego gratification?

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

1. It's a fake argument because, a) it gets thrown at guys like me every time we disagree with certain shibboleths; b) it's a fake argument because the, "evolution," folks never really seem to be doing anything that's actually evolutionary; c) it's a fake argument because the, "tradition," guys actually evolve things all the time if they're any good; d) it's a fake argument because it represents a fundamental misapprehension of the radical nature of kenpo; e) it's a fake argument because guys like me don't have any quarrel with the notion of genuine development of any martial arts system.

2. Better approaches: a) what's the relationship between "personal," evolution and the alteration of the kenpo system; b) was there ever really a solid system in the first place?; c) is kenpo actually a radical martial art, or simply one more articulation of martial art principles?; d) what is the relation between the importation of, "outside," materials (i.e. arnis, grappling, judo, etc.); e) does kenpo HAVE an, "outside," from which we borrow needed advances; f) what is the real status of the struggle "sublevels," vs. "advances," in kenpo; g) why do practitioners tend to fetishize either the system, or their, "radical," alterations of the system; h) what are the specific histories of those teachers associated with either the development of the, "hidden," material in kenpo or the development of an, "evolutionary," kenpo; i) what parts of the specific relations between," the kenpo system," (assuming that there is one) and the progress of particular students can we identify; j) to what extent is the whole discussion a simple cover-up for power trips? k) why is our focus on development of the system rather than development of the individuals practicing it? l) how does one establish that changed techniques and drills represent some, "evolutionary," development? m) how do we separate useful developments from changes that are made for change's sake or for ego gratification, n) how do we separate retaining necessary basics, sets, forms, techniques and theory from hanging onto tradition for tradition's sake, or for ego gratification?

Now, if they can answer these questions they win the cupie doll. All I can say is WOW, this is an outstanding argument.

DarK LorD

 

[kenpoworks]

Robert,
I think that was a genuinely impressive answer that covered a "lot" of ground and for "me" it was food for thought and not something I felt I must answer.
Thanks
Richard
ps thank you for making me look up shibboleths, I can't wait to drop that one into a conversation "down the pub"

 

[Doc]

1. It's a fake argument because, a) it gets thrown at guys like me every time we disagree with certain shibboleths; b) it's a fake argument because the, "evolution," folks never really seem to be doing anything that's actually evolutionary; c) it's a fake argument because the, "tradition," guys actually evolve things all the time if they're any good; d) it's a fake argument because it represents a fundamental misapprehension of the radical nature of kenpo; e) it's a fake argument because guys like me don't have any quarrel with the notion of genuine development of any martial arts system.

2. Better approaches: a) what's the relationship between "personal," evolution and the alteration of the kenpo system; b) was there ever really a solid system in the first place?; c) is kenpo actually a radical martial art, or simply one more articulation of martial art principles?; d) what is the relation between the importation of, "outside," materials (i.e. arnis, grappling, judo, etc.); e) does kenpo HAVE an, "outside," from which we borrow needed advances; f) what is the real status of the struggle "sublevels," vs. "advances," in kenpo; g) why do practitioners tend to fetishize either the system, or their, "radical," alterations of the system; h) what are the specific histories of those teachers associated with either the development of the, "hidden," material in kenpo or the development of an, "evolutionary," kenpo; i) what parts of the specific relations between," the kenpo system," (assuming that there is one) and the progress of particular students can we identify; j) to what extent is the whole discussion a simple cover-up for power trips? k) why is our focus on development of the system rather than development of the individuals practicing it? l) how does one establish that changed techniques and drills represent some, "evolutionary," development? m) how do we separate useful developments from changes that are made for change's sake or for ego gratification, n) how do we separate retaining necessary basics, sets, forms, techniques and theory from hanging onto tradition for tradition's sake, or for ego gratification?

I gotta say, you didn't miss much. I also gotta say, I agree with you.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Well Robert, I think you just gave everyone a ton to digest, maybe too much LOL. Wished I had your way with words for that post, there's really nothing for me to say but DAAAMMMMMMNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!

DarK LorD

 

[Brother John]

Robert-
Excellent set of questions. I don't want to just slap down an answer yet, I'd like to put more thought into it. I will reply, but I can only do so from my own background...I've never 'changed' or done any modification to any martial art system...so I'm not qualified to give much of a "THIS is why" type reply...I can only offer my thoughts. But I will put my thoughts out here. I do train in an art that has been significantly changed and modified by our associations founder, so these are things I've thought about. Probably make for a good discussion so long as we can keep positive and polite.

I might suggest though that you make this it's own thread as it raises good questions and deserves it's own consideration And because it's markedly different than the aim of This thread. If you do, please let me know where you placed it.

Your Brother
John