Tgace
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 7,766
- Reaction score
- 409
"Who Has the Thickest Face and the Blackest Heart?"
- Thread starter Tgace
- Start date
Interesting paragraph from that article:
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica]"A combat athlete with a black heart is a ruthless person. He may think highly of his opponent, but when the referee starts the bout, he is a competitive animal. He does not care how much his opponent wants to win. He does not care if his opponent cries when he loses. He does not care if his opponent has worked for many years to achieve the same goal. He wants to win more than anyone else - and he is going to win as impressively as he can ... and if his opponent is physically or emotionally crushed afterward, tough luck."
The question in my mind is whether a martial artist really wants to have a black heart as a goal. It is my understanding that martial artists generally are peaceable people, unless they are forced into the necessity of fighting (self defense scenario).
I am aware the above quoted paragraph, however, implies being in a competitive environment (such as a ring or a tournament). Does sportsmanship have a place any more? :idunno:
- Ceicei
[/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica]"A combat athlete with a black heart is a ruthless person. He may think highly of his opponent, but when the referee starts the bout, he is a competitive animal. He does not care how much his opponent wants to win. He does not care if his opponent cries when he loses. He does not care if his opponent has worked for many years to achieve the same goal. He wants to win more than anyone else - and he is going to win as impressively as he can ... and if his opponent is physically or emotionally crushed afterward, tough luck."
The question in my mind is whether a martial artist really wants to have a black heart as a goal. It is my understanding that martial artists generally are peaceable people, unless they are forced into the necessity of fighting (self defense scenario).
I am aware the above quoted paragraph, however, implies being in a competitive environment (such as a ring or a tournament). Does sportsmanship have a place any more? :idunno:
- Ceicei
[/font]
If the competitor shakes hands before and after, then yes, he is deserving of respect for a well fought and won contest. If he, as the paragraph indicates is that callous, so he wins and turns his back walking away without a handshake or a word to the opponent, it would be hard for me to really respect him.
However, there is more to the article than just that paragraph, I agree. It reminds me of a short article I wrote regarding a conversation with a boxer I had that is somewhat related to this subject. Maybe I'll share that article if I see there is a compelling reason to contribute further along that tangent.
- Ceicei
However, there is more to the article than just that paragraph, I agree. It reminds me of a short article I wrote regarding a conversation with a boxer I had that is somewhat related to this subject. Maybe I'll share that article if I see there is a compelling reason to contribute further along that tangent.
- Ceicei
K
Ka'alako
Guest
I second that, although I think I'd like to add that entering the ring (or any other competitive arena) is a voluntary thing, so nobody can ever claim to be a victim by virtue of being defeated there. I would say that in a way, shaking hands is a way of agreeing to this.Tgace said:
A Black-hearted fighter and I think immediately of Mike Tyson. That guy simply was an animal in human disguise. Still is IMO. A person who does not give one whit for the welfare of their opponent (except... except in times of war and war related combat) should not be deserving of the respect given or due.
It's one thing to win, one thing to win and be better than your opponent. In combative forms of competition (boxing, kick-boxing, etc.) one must be stronger, faster and endure more and inflict more than their opponent to have the win. Still there are ways to do that without plummeling said opponent to a pulp.
:asian:
It's one thing to win, one thing to win and be better than your opponent. In combative forms of competition (boxing, kick-boxing, etc.) one must be stronger, faster and endure more and inflict more than their opponent to have the win. Still there are ways to do that without plummeling said opponent to a pulp.
Used by saints? Used for good? I find that doubtful at best. Perhaps I'm not clear on an example. Can someone enlighten?
:asian:
punisher73
Senior Master
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2004
- Messages
- 3,960
- Reaction score
- 1,063
I remember reading this book a few years ago. It is a book on asian philosophy as it relates to business. I did not read the matt furey article though.
Thick face=thick skinned
Black Heart was more a reference to pursuing your goals no matter what. When you set your sights on something don't let something interfere with obtaining your goal.
To give an example of this concept in a non-martial art example. Thomas Edison would be an example. He worked relentlessly on developing the lightbulb and did not let other people dissuade him and kept on his goal until he achieved it.
Thick face=thick skinned
Black Heart was more a reference to pursuing your goals no matter what. When you set your sights on something don't let something interfere with obtaining your goal.
To give an example of this concept in a non-martial art example. Thomas Edison would be an example. He worked relentlessly on developing the lightbulb and did not let other people dissuade him and kept on his goal until he achieved it.
S
Skankatron Ltd
Guest
I disagree with what would happen according to this philosophy. It says that while normal handshakes and friendliness are liked, they are not necessary. Think about it this way, a match ends badly for someone a gainst a thick-face/black-hearted fighter. After the match they go to shake hands and the lost spits in the winners hand. The thick-faced one would be willing to shake hands, but would not deem it necessary and so wouldn't be disheartened by the disrespect.Ceicei said:
I donno. Does no one else see this idea as basic common sense when it comes to fighting? When a man attacks you in the street and you have no choice but to defend yourself, are you really going to shake hands first, bow, shake afterwords, compliment his grappling skills and so on? Are you really going to hold back? No! If you do, you've failed. That is not the purpose of martial arts. Sparring, maybe, but in combat it should be do or die. If it's not, then you haven't exhausted other ways out of the conflict.
T
TonyM.
Guest
Furey is a clown.
8
8253
Guest
In the sense of the article, i would think it best to have a thick face untill it becomes necessary to have a black heart.
Adept
Master Black Belt
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica]I think it is important to seperate the rest of the article from the actual definitions given, which are:
Thick Face: The quality of being immune to the criticisms or negative opinions of others. The ability to set aside your own doubts and fears, and proceed as if victory is inevitable.[/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica]
Black Heart: The quality of being passionately committed to the actions you must take to achieve a goal - while simultaneously showing no compassion or concern for how others are affected by those actions.
These are extremely admirable attributes, IMHO. Remember, having a 'black heart' means only that one is committed to their goals. Not that their goals are negative, careless or cruel. Black hearted would be another term for desire to win and determination, IMHO.
[/font]
Thick Face: The quality of being immune to the criticisms or negative opinions of others. The ability to set aside your own doubts and fears, and proceed as if victory is inevitable.[/font]
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica]
Black Heart: The quality of being passionately committed to the actions you must take to achieve a goal - while simultaneously showing no compassion or concern for how others are affected by those actions.
These are extremely admirable attributes, IMHO. Remember, having a 'black heart' means only that one is committed to their goals. Not that their goals are negative, careless or cruel. Black hearted would be another term for desire to win and determination, IMHO.
[/font]
Adept said:
Well I think being totally committed to one's goals and having the desire to win with determination and fortitude is what's admirable but not if one's actions to obtain/achieve those goals are at the expense of others. It's akin to corporate back-stabbing, breaking hearts, blackmailing, abuse of trust and callousness of another human being's feelings, etc. Those are not admirable traits IMO. There attributable to those we call jerks, arseholes, fanantics and soul-less people to choose a few choice adjectives.
Yes, sometimes some people have to be pushed out of the way if they stand before you and your goals but while the push doesn't have to be a genteel nudge it also doesn't mean a rude shove.
I have no use for people like those. I'm a human being and I demand respect as one, if I'm in your way then go around, under, above me but don't dare try to go through me like I'm not there. If I'm after the same thing (a job promotion/position) then may the best man win... and fairly. Mebbe I'm a wuss... but I like to see myself as a decent human being, I'll only associate with those of like kind.
still learning
Senior Master
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2004
- Messages
- 3,749
- Reaction score
- 48
Hello, That was a good article on how "winners become winners". In the real world of fighting an unknown hopefully we can become like that. There are no rules in a real fight. It is after the fight, Jail ,morgue, or hospital. .....Aloha
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
While one certainly agrees that the moment when push comes to shove is a bad moment for idle reflection, I think that such statements also suggest that men's self-dramatization of themselves and their martial arts continues, as does their search for self-justification.
Similar threads
