who actually thinks you can punch someone on top of you.

[drop bear]

Do you mean have a spaz attack and start slapping like a bird?

striking up high and not consolidating the mount. There is a tendency to do it. Normally the result is being swept.

 

[Tez3]

I can't find the Arlovski vs Cruz fight. Do you have a link?

I watched the end of the Khalidov vs Santiago fight. Didn't see any striking from the bottom. was there some particular point during the fight you were thinking of?

Arlovski fight is from Dec30th 2006 and the Khalidov fight was ended with a hammerfist from underneath, that's from Sep 2009.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Arlovski fight is from Dec30th 2006 and the Khalidov fight was ended with a hammerfist from underneath, that's from Sep 2009.

Aha! I was looking at the Khalidov vs Santiago fight from 2010 originally. Didn't realize they fought twice.

Just watched both fights. Neither one involved punching from bottom of mount. Khalidov was striking from bottom of open guard. Arlovski was punching from a mutually entwined leg lock position (sort of like 50/50 guard, but not quite.) Arlovski wasn't even underneath his opponent.

No one is questioning that striking from bottom of guard can be effective. Striking from bottom of mount is a whole different story. The two videos linked upthread are the only examples I've ever seen where someone was successful with that tactic.

 

[Tez3]

Aha! I was looking at the Khalidov vs Santiago fight from 2010 originally. Didn't realize they fought twice.

Just watched both fights. Neither one involved punching from bottom of mount. Khalidov was striking from bottom of open guard. Arlovski was punching from a mutually entwined leg lock position (sort of like 50/50 guard, but not quite.) Arlovski wasn't even underneath his opponent.

No one is questioning that striking from bottom of guard can be effective. Striking from bottom of mount is a whole different story. The two videos linked upthread are the only examples I've ever seen where someone was successful with that tactic.

??? the question the OP asked involves someone on top of you, that's not necessarily actually 'mount' you can also have someone on top of you in side control and when they are in your guard, they are on top you are on the bottom. Are we are going to be so precise as to specify only in mount, it's not as if the OP isn't silly enough as it is.

 

[ballen0351]

??? the question the OP asked involves someone on top of you, that's not necessarily actually 'mount' you can also have someone on top of you in side control and when they are in your guard, they are on top you are on the bottom. Are we are going to be so precise as to specify only in mount, it's not as if the OP isn't silly enough as it is.

They are going to keep narrowing the conversation until they are right. The original question was answered. Yes you can strike effectively from the bottom. Now it's well not from the guard. When that's proven wrong it will be further narrowed to we'll not blindfolded and handcuffed.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

??? the question the OP asked involves someone on top of you, that's not necessarily actually 'mount' you can also have someone on top of you in side control and when they are in your guard, they are on top you are on the bottom. Are we are going to be so precise as to specify only in mount, it's not as if the OP isn't silly enough as it is.

There's a reason my very first comment in the thread asked for clarification on what drop bear meant with the original question and provided different answers based on which position we are talking about. There is a huge difference between striking from bottom of guard and striking from bottom of mount. It's not a trivial distinction and we aren't going to have meaningful conversation if we don't all understand which topic we are discussing.

Based on drop bear's follow up comments, I'm assuming he meant bottom of mount, but he can correct me if I'm wrong. I'm quite certain Hanzou was discussing the mount.

Personally, I'm glad the question was asked because it lead to Chrisoro posting the videos he did. I've watched probably a thousand MMA fights and it's the first time I've seen results like that. It's always cool seeing someone pull something off something crazy like that.

 

[Tez3]

There's a reason my very first comment in the thread asked for clarification on what drop bear meant with the original question and provided different answers based on which position we are talking about. There is a huge difference between striking from bottom of guard and striking from bottom of mount. It's not a trivial distinction and we aren't going to have meaningful conversation if we don't all understand which topic we are discussing.

Based on drop bear's follow up comments, I'm assuming he meant bottom of mount, but he can correct me if I'm wrong. I'm quite certain Hanzou was discussing the mount.

Personally, I'm glad the question was asked because it lead to Chrisoro posting the videos he did. I've watched probably a thousand MMA fights and it's the first time I've seen results like that. It's always cool seeing someone pull something off something crazy like that.

I have Hanzou on ignore so I don't know what he says. I find his comments unhelpful at best, dismissive at worse.
I will leave this conversation now as the 'rules' keep changing.

 

[ballen0351]

It's always cool seeing someone pull something off something crazy like that.

Its hardly "crazy" and def not as mystical and far fetched as your trying to make it out to be. But who am I to go against the BJJ gods. Around here it seems if its not grappling it wont work, is crazy, not effective, a low % technique,BLAH BLAH BLAH BJJ good strikes bad BLAH BLAH BLAH

 

[Hanzou]

There's a reason my very first comment in the thread asked for clarification on what drop bear meant with the original question and provided different answers based on which position we are talking about. There is a huge difference between striking from bottom of guard and striking from bottom of mount. It's not a trivial distinction and we aren't going to have meaningful conversation if we don't all understand which topic we are discussing.

Based on drop bear's follow up comments, I'm assuming he meant bottom of mount, but he can correct me if I'm wrong. I'm quite certain Hanzou was discussing the mount.

Personally, I'm glad the question was asked because it lead to Chrisoro posting the videos he did. I've watched probably a thousand MMA fights and it's the first time I've seen results like that. It's always cool seeing someone pull something off something crazy like that.

Yep, I was talking about the mount. As you said, the guard is a whole different ball game.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Its hardly "crazy" and def not as mystical and far fetched as your trying to make it out to be. But who am I to go against the BJJ gods. Around here it seems if its not grappling it wont work, is crazy, not effective, a low % technique,BLAH BLAH BLAH BJJ good strikes bad BLAH BLAH BLAH

I don't believe that "grappling good, striking bad, BJJ's best" is an accurate description of drop bear's commentary. I know it's not reflective of anything I've ever said or even implied.

As far as getting a knockout from the bottom of mount - it may not be mystical, but it sure is unusual. I've seen hundreds of fights end up in the mount. A large percentage of them have been ended by strikes from the fighter on top. Until Chrisoro posted those two videos, I had never seen the fighter on the bottom of mount have any luck at all with striking from that position.

In addition to the evidence from fights observed, I've spent hundreds of hours in both the top and bottom of mounts during training and sparring. Based on that, I can tell you that the fighter on top of mount has a huge mechanical advantage in striking over the fighter on the bottom. That's got nothing to do with "grappling is better than striking" or "BJJ is better than anything else." It's just the reality of that particular position.

 

[Buka]

There's a reason my very first comment in the thread asked for clarification on what drop bear meant with the original question and provided different answers based on which position we are talking about. There is a huge difference between striking from bottom of guard and striking from bottom of mount. It's not a trivial distinction and we aren't going to have meaningful conversation if we don't all understand which topic we are discussing.

Based on drop bear's follow up comments, I'm assuming he meant bottom of mount, but he can correct me if I'm wrong. I'm quite certain Hanzou was discussing the mount.

Personally, I'm glad the question was asked because it lead to Chrisoro posting the videos he did. I've watched probably a thousand MMA fights and it's the first time I've seen results like that. It's always cool seeing someone pull something off something crazy like that.

I agree wholeheartedly. Great points. The difference between mount, high mount, defending mount from a low spider, back mount, side control, top position in his guard, knee on belly, knee on neck, ground & pound or swarming top position with a really heavy opponent is pretty much the same differences as in a standing position with the opponent in a squared stance with hands down, hands in his pockets, hands up, a fence position, a left or right stance, a bouncing opponent, an attack with a straight strike, a wild swing, a fast rush, a pump fake, a swarm or with a weapon in his hand.

 

[drop bear]

??? the question the OP asked involves someone on top of you, that's not necessarily actually 'mount' you can also have someone on top of you in side control and when they are in your guard, they are on top you are on the bottom. Are we are going to be so precise as to specify only in mount, it's not as if the OP isn't silly enough as it is.

There is a difference in a mma sense.

 

[drop bear]

I have Hanzou on ignore so I don't know what he says. I find his comments unhelpful at best, dismissive at worse.
I will leave this conversation now as the 'rules' keep changing.

Depends if we are talking about a topic or trying to score semantic points. Up kicking from guard would be high percentage. But that is not really what I was talking about.

 

[drop bear]

They are going to keep narrowing the conversation until they are right. The original question was answered. Yes you can strike effectively from the bottom. Now it's well not from the guard. When that's proven wrong it will be further narrowed to we'll not blindfolded and handcuffed.

So what circumstances do you advocate striking from the bottom. Do you train this?

 

[ballen0351]

So what circumstances do you advocate striking from the bottom.

What circumstances? Anytime I find myself in the ground with someone on top of me.

Do you train this?

Yes

 

[ballen0351]

I don't believe that "grappling good, striking bad, BJJ's best" is an accurate description of drop bear's commentary. I know it's not reflective of anything I've ever said or even implied.

Ummm yeah sure keep telling yourself that

As far as getting a knockout from the bottom of mount - it may not be mystical, but it sure is unusual. I've seen hundreds of fights end up in the mount. A large percentage of them have been ended by strikes from the fighter on top. Until Chrisoro posted those two videos, I had never seen the fighter on the bottom of mount have any luck at all with striking from that position.

In addition to the evidence from fights observed, I've spent hundreds of hours in both the top and bottom of mounts during training and sparring. Based on that, I can tell you that the fighter on top of mount has a huge mechanical advantage in striking over the fighter on the bottom. That's got nothing to do with "grappling is better than striking" or "BJJ is better than anything else." It's just the reality of that particular position.

Well considering being in top is a position of advantage and being on the bottom is not it's not a surprise most fights end with the top guy winning. THAT wasn't the original question. Again your trying to narrow the topic down until it fits your view. The question was who thinks you can punch from the bottom. Well many people do and it can work.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ummm yeah sure keep telling yourself that

I've been posting here for 10 years. I invite you to find a single comment from me during all that time indicating that grappling is inherently better than striking or that BJJ is better than other arts. I train in striking, grappling, and weapons arts and I'm an advocate for the view that any serious martial artist should do the same.

THAT wasn't the original question. Again your trying to narrow the topic down until it fits your view.

The original question was ambiguous and has different answers depending on how you interpret it. Way back on the first page of this thread I asked drop bear for clarification and provided different answers depending on his meaning. If we want to communicate with each other rather than just scoring points, it behooves us to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

Well considering being in top is a position of advantage and being on the bottom is not it's not a surprise most fights end with the top guy winning.

Okay, let me go into more depth:
I've seen hundreds of fights end up in the mount. A large percentage of them have been ended by strikes from the fighter on top. Until Chrisoro posted those two videos, I had never seen the fighter on the bottom of mount have any luck at all with striking from that position. Usually the fighter who tries striking from bottom of mount gets pounded out. I have seen lots of fighters escape the mount (not through striking - usually through bridging, elbow escape, or back door escape) and go on to end up winning the fight. Sometimes they even end up winning via strikes - once they're no longer on bottom of mount.

 

[drop bear]

What circumstances? Anytime I find myself in the ground with someone on top of me.

Yes

How do you set it up though?

How do you prevent the guy on top striking you?

 

[drop bear]

If people think I don't want to knock a guy out from underneath mount they are wrong.

I would love to. I would let people get mount just so I could beat on them.

But it is the how that eludes me. And it has eluded some very competent fighters. So it has been done. Fine I can accept that. Now for those who train it. How did they do it?

 

[Hanzou]

What circumstances? Anytime I find myself in the ground with someone on top of me.

Yes

I'd be very curious to know how exactly are you training from that position. Are you learning escapes, or are you just trying to punch and kick your way out of that position?