Which kick is a better stopping weapon.

[Navarre]

I think it mostly matters what your goal is, as well as the environment of course. If your goal is to get out of the area as quickly as possible, then the back thrust kick or any kick that creates distance between you and the assailant is fine.

Otherwise, I'd go for whatever kick will most likely slip past his guard but which also ideally leads into my follow-up technique. The follow-up technique would most often be a hand combination because they can be rapid-fired faster and easier than the kick without leaving me standing on one leg.

This would probably necessitate me closing ground on the guy though as my first kick (unless a good snap or cutting kick) will send him some distance back. And, suddenly, we have a totally different situation than the cut-and-run scenario.

So, although I didn't even come close to answering what the better "stopping weapon" is, I don't think it can really be said for certainty because each kick has its own advantages. If I was pressed to say, any kick that takes advantage of hip torque should be better than those that don't so I'd go with Muy Tai kicks and thrust side kicks but one small flip kick to the groin can do wonders.

 

[bignick]

Just another thought but based on the definitions of kicks I posted, a snap kick is very fast to throw, but has less stopping power than a push kick or shove kick. A push kick is a little slower because you have to chamber the knee up to your chest, or at least toward it, to push out powerfullly, but it has more stopping power/moving power than a snap kick. I would use a snap kick agianst somecoming with a rear side technique from a stationary position, but would be less likely to try it if my opponent was moving toward me, especially if they were heavier than I.

Actually, as trained correctly snaps kicks can be very debilitating. A snapping kick should basically make someone collapse around the area you hit them due to the pain. A thrusting kick should do just that, thrust them away. Try throwing a front snap kick to the shins or bladder. People don't fight well when they are peeing themselves.

 

[arnisador]

I dunno...if well-placed, sure, but a lot of hyped-up people will walk through snap kicks and not show much notice of them...if it lands in the midsectin generally, it may just slide off.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I have been experimenting with this for a while. So here is the question.
If you had fast feet and you wanted to throw a defensive kick. What would it be. For a long time I use to throw a defensive side kick. Lately I been trying a thrust front kick.
The advantage of the side kick is that it gets me farther away from the opponent. It is stronger, it hurts more, it can turn easy into the roundhouse, hook kick or ex kick with the same leg.
On the other hand for the front kick, I don't have to turn away and pivot hips. And I can have a swift punching follow up.

What do you guys think?

A sidekick's great - if you can land one. However, the change in body position (assuming an assault, not a sparring match where you're alread turned to the side in a stance), while taking only a split second, may have enough delay for your assailant to be on top of you.

I prefer a front thrust kick that is more like a stomp (imagine trying to kick in a door). It leaves you balanced, has much force and doesn't require a change in position to throw. I learned it (or re-learned it) from the KM tapes.

 

[Epson]

I like side kick, since it's harder to see than the front kick.
A fast lead hand roundhouse, may not stop but it distracts pretty well and allow for kicks or punches to follow.

 

[searcher]

I dunno...if well-placed, sure, but a lot of hyped-up people will walk through snap kicks and not show much notice of them...if it lands in the midsectin generally, it may just slide off.

This is a truly interesting point. The size of the person and if they are on drugs or the like can make a world of difference. One of my former instructors made this point to me about this very situation. If the person is intoxicated or on drugs you have to make a body part not work any more. Whether it is dislocating the knee or even breaking one of their bones. It has to be something that stops them from advancing or maybe even kill them. If they are hopped up enough you can kick them in the body all day and they will still keep coming. Whatever kick you choose make sure it is effective.

 

[arnisador]

I prefer a front thrust kick that is more like a stomp (imagine trying to kick in a door). It leaves you balanced, has much force and doesn't require a change in position to throw. I learned it (or re-learned it) from the KM tapes.

Sounds more-or-less like the push kick, but maybe with a bit more "ooomph". Do you use it principally to injure the opponent or principally to control the range? I think of the push kick more for the latter.

 

[arnisador]

This is a truly interesting point. The size of the person and if they are on drugs or the like can make a world of difference. One of my former instructors made this point to me about this very situation. If the person is intoxicated or on drugs you have to make a body part not work any more.

This was my first karate instructor's principal strategy of fighting--"a man who can't stand, can't fight" he would often say. If the person is high/enraged/etc., it may be necessary to cause structural damage or to gain a very effective control (lock). An art that relies on pain only is a real risk to the practitioner--all too often, you need more.

 

[arnisador]

I like side kick, since it's harder to see than the front kick.

I would disagree--I think the side kick is easier to see coming, though it can be hard to stop once it gets going.

A fast lead hand roundhouse, may not stop but it distracts pretty well and allow for kicks or punches to follow.

Do you mean lead leg roundhouse kick, or lead hand roundhouse punch? The former is something an untrained person would walk right through if they were really involved in the fight. They'd never even try to block it in most cases, but just try to land their punch.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Actually, as trained correctly snaps kicks can be very debilitating.

Mostly I meant that it has less 'stopping' power in it's ability to stop a forward moving mass, not thinking of the effectiveness of the kick itself.

My instructor (and I'm not claiming he's unique in this) kinda categorizes kicks into 'penetrating' and 'moving' based on their ability to move the target versue penetrate the target. A lot of that has to do with the movement and direction of the body mass in relationship to the direction of the weapon into the target. Examples of penetrating kicks are snap kicks and roundhouse kicks; the weapon is moving into the target usually with a whip motion from the muscles, if you will, but the body mass is not behind the weapon driving it into the target. Moving kicks would be like spinning backs kicks, sidekicks, spining sidekicks, etc...these kicks cause the body mass to be behind the weapon in line of the direction of the kick so your body mass is driving the weapon into the target. This is just a loose categorization but it helps (it helps to keep in mind how kicks will effect the target. A sidekick followed by a roundhouse kick is not very wise because the sidekick's moving power will displace the target backward and be out of range for a roundhouse kick, but a roundhouse kick followed by a sidekick is more effective because the roundhouse kick won't move the opponent backward and thus he is still in range for the sidekick, etc...etc...simplified, but it helps in thinking of combination attacks to consider how your strike(s) will move, or not move, the opponent)

So, when I mentioned a snap kick as having less 'stopping power' I was approaching it from the idea of being able to stop an incoming opponent, ie...stopping a moving mass based on how much mass the kick has behind it. I wasn't really meaning it from the point of view of pain or other debilitating effects of the kick.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I prefer a front thrust kick that is more like a stomp (imagine trying to kick in a door). It leaves you balanced, has much force

Breaking it down into doing the front thrust kick (or 'push kick' in my vocab, if I read you correctly), you can throw it from the front side or rear side. For defensive purposes, I've usually seen kicks thrown on the front side, as they are quicker they rear side kicks.

The difficulty I have with the front side push kick is that since it does not involve moving body mass, you are effectively standing on one legand kicking into the target and if the target has forward momentum, the momentum is going to push you back*. If you lift your back leg and effectively 'push off' the opponent to gain distance, that's good, but it's not really going to stop their forward motion. A rear-side push kick has more of your own momentum moving forward in the hip shift, but is slower to get up...so...range and motion of the opponent again come into play.

A front side sidekick is still going to have the plant foot pivoting, which provides forward motion of the body behind the kick into the target, this gives you momentum into the opponent, which counters their momentum, which means you are less likely to be moved back.

Other than that, the sidekick and the push kick, just in the legs, use pretty much the same muscles for thrusting and the foot travels in almost the same arc, so general speed and power should be about the same, I would think.

and doesn't require a change in position to throw

Any kick, push kick, sidekick, spinning kick, should be throwable from a fighting stance or walking stance (and people wonder why Taegeuk forms have some many walking stance techniques : ) My instructor mentioned that I was tipping my spinning kicks with my back foot positioning, so one drill my kids an I did was to stand in walking stance or fighting stance and have someone else call a random kick, front side or rear, spinning, hop-to, back kick, sidekick, cresecent kick, roundhouse, etc...to practice being able to throw any kick from a standing, neutral position (this is actually part of our belt testing as well, throwing any kicks from a neutral position).



*I regularly spar with my instructor, who has maybe 60lbs on me. I found that out the hard way a week or so ago when I tried to push kick him defensively and just ended up pushing myself backwards to the floor : )

 

[Brother John]

OK..
You are talking about stopping or "PUT DOWN" power here right??

The advantage of the side kick is that it gets me farther away from the opponent. It is stronger, it hurts more, it can turn easy into the roundhouse, hook kick or ex kick with the same leg.

SO:
Side Kick:
Controls the gap (increases/maintains distance better)
More POWERFUL (that answers your question)
Hurts more (.....that depends, doesn't it? it would tend to, yes)
and it translates well into alternate kicks (leaves you with more options, which is always good)

On the other hand for the front kick, I don't have to turn away and pivot hips. And I can have a swift punching follow up.

Front Kick:
quicker, easier to initiate w/less set up
Keeps in alignment for other frontal tools
easier to use as a set up for other techniques.

SO...
Put down power = side kick
set up for other techniques (much like a boxers jab) = front kick

simple as that.
How about seizing the initiative with the front kick, set it down and immediately LAUNCH into a step-in side kick??
The step/shuffle in will REALLY accellerate the velocity for MORE power and depth.

Your Brother
John

 

[FearlessFreep]

Front Kick:
quicker, easier to initiate w/less set up

I would debate that : ) Speed wise they seem about the same. Actually I think the sidekick launches a little faster because you don't have to lift the foot as high before you drive it outward


Keeps in alignment for other frontal tools
easier to use as a set up for other techniques.

Is that redundant : )

OK, maybe this is a matter of training focus but something we're constantly having beat into our heads is to come out of a kick into a walking stance. So...once I throw a sidkick out I can either being my foot back to a walking stance or step down forward so I'm turned and can then throw a spinning kick of some sort. A sidekick doesn't have to sacrifice position. But, being in TKD, I practice sidekicks a *lot* and my instructor is very big on the idea of coming out of an attack balanced so you are ready for another attack or defense.

immediately LAUNCH into a step-in side kick??
The step/shuffle in will REALLY accellerate the velocity for MORE power and depth.

Man do I *love* that kick. A *lot* of power and ability to close distance

 

[bignick]

Actually, as trained correctly snaps kicks can be very debilitating.

Mostly I meant that it has less 'stopping' power in it's ability to stop a forward moving mass, not thinking of the effectiveness of the kick itself.

My instructor (and I'm not claiming he's unique in this) kinda categorizes kicks into 'penetrating' and 'moving' based on their ability to move the target versue penetrate the target. A lot of that has to do with the movement and direction of the body mass in relationship to the direction of the weapon into the target. Examples of penetrating kicks are snap kicks and roundhouse kicks; the weapon is moving into the target usually with a whip motion from the muscles, if you will, but the body mass is not behind the weapon driving it into the target. Moving kicks would be like spinning backs kicks, sidekicks, spining sidekicks, etc...these kicks cause the body mass to be behind the weapon in line of the direction of the kick so your body mass is driving the weapon into the target. This is just a loose categorization but it helps (it helps to keep in mind how kicks will effect the target. A sidekick followed by a roundhouse kick is not very wise because the sidekick's moving power will displace the target backward and be out of range for a roundhouse kick, but a roundhouse kick followed by a sidekick is more effective because the roundhouse kick won't move the opponent backward and thus he is still in range for the sidekick, etc...etc...simplified, but it helps in thinking of combination attacks to consider how your strike(s) will move, or not move, the opponent)

So, when I mentioned a snap kick as having less 'stopping power' I was approaching it from the idea of being able to stop an incoming opponent, ie...stopping a moving mass based on how much mass the kick has behind it. I wasn't really meaning it from the point of view of pain or other debilitating effects of the kick.

Fair enough...

 

[Raewyn]

Im quite suprised no one has mentioned a front kick of your front leg as a good defensive kick, especially as it really is used as a precussion kick to get yourself set up for your next move. Could I be wrong in thinking that??

 

[Eric Daniel]

I too used to use the side kick for this but have gravitated to a front push-kick, sort of Muay Thai style. It sets up my hands better and I feel less vulnerable when it fails.

Don't most kicks set up for your hands to follow the kick? I prefer to do a front kick or a roundhouse kick and than come in for a jab, cross or some sort of combination with my hands.

 

[MJS]

Don't most kicks set up for your hands to follow the kick? I prefer to do a front kick or a roundhouse kick and than come in for a jab, cross or some sort of combination with my hands.

Depending on what type of strikes you plan on throwing, certain kicks will set them up better than others.

As for the original question, I guess it would depend on what the situation is. Regardless of the kick I decide on, it would go no higher than the midsection. I like the use of the front push kick as well as the oblique to the knee/shin.

Mike

 

[FearlessFreep]

Im quite suprised no one has mentioned a front kick of your front leg as a good defensive kick...

It was inferred I mentioned doing front side kicks (er...that means a kick from your front leg not a sidekick done from the front) for defensive reasons and one of the defensive kicks mentioned was front kick. One of the reasons mentioned for favoring the front kick over the sidekick was body poistion after the kick, particularly if you wanted to follow up with hand strikes.

 

[Flying Crane]

Don't most kicks set up for your hands to follow the kick? I prefer to do a front kick or a roundhouse kick and than come in for a jab, cross or some sort of combination with my hands.

Personally, I think the hands are more important to set up a kick. Leading with a kick to bridge the distance or initiate the engagement is just too obvious and broadcasts from a mile away. Engaging with the hands first can bring his guard and his attention higher and bring you in closer to a position where you can actually land a decisive kick that could end the fight.

 

[Brother John]

Front Kick:
quicker, easier to initiate w/less set up

I would debate that : ) Speed wise they seem about the same. Actually I think the sidekick launches a little faster because you don't have to lift the foot as high before you drive it outward

That's assuming the stance you are in is already "Side-facing". Many styles don't begin that way, but employ a more "front-facing" stance. Like the art I practice...it begins MUCH more "Front-facing" than TKD. Therefore, I feel the front kick (that doesn't require ME to shift my entire body to the side for execution) is Faster while a side kick takes a bigger "body-shift" to set up.

Keeps in alignment for other frontal tools
easier to use as a set up for other techniques.

Is that redundan

No, it's not. They are 'cause and effect', but they are not the same things.
Because the front kick keeps you in a frontal alignment (cause)
it's easier to set up other frontal techniques. (effect)


Your Brother
John