Where did the SKH stuff come from?

[Fallen Ninja]

I guess he could have asked his wife, Rumiko. she speaks.

I have some of Hayes newest dvd's and he tells of how the Gogyo no kata are a listing device for the different levels of training. furthermore, he defines the difference between Godai and Go gyo no kata, and in his To-shindo course, the idea of using levels are present. In fact, his course is based on these levels. No mention of "feeling" present. He mentions more of an Elemental "motion" when relating to Gogyo and godai. He then tells of how the Godai come from indian philosphy and Gogyo from Japan.

hope this helps.

Well I guess that kinda clears things up... I was getting kinda confused with all the Buddist talk!:idunno:

Good answer. Right to the point.
By the way... are there any real ToShinDo practitioners here? Wish we could actually see the other side of the coin. Getting tired of hearing my self talk! Ha Ha Ha!

:ninja:
FN

 

[Deaf]

I think we scared them all off! Which is unfortunate since I love a good argument from time to time!

 

[Cryozombie]

Gary Arthur is a Toshindo instructor. So we have at least 1.

Hey, I was on Winjutsu this morning and I saw in the section explaining the Sanshin:

[FONT=verdana,arial] Chi no kata translated means "earth pattern."
[/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial] Sui no kata translated means "water pattern."

Etc...

Does that maybe have anything to do with the source of the "elemental" feelings?
[/FONT]

 

[heretic888]

That is true to an extent, but Vajrayana tradition does not necessarily exalt one over the other in terms of epistemological insight. The elements are in part related to the Hindu lokadhatu as seen through a Buddhist POV, so each element is associated with a particular "unskillfull" psychological state. One element may in some sense be "wiser" than another, but all of them reveal unskillfull fixations compared to the Buddha-nature. At the same time, Tantric thought does concentrate on the tranformation of such states into wisdom-acquiring dharmas. The confusing bit is that different sects and groups of laypeople are going to see this in different ways. The difference between clerical doctrine and folk traditions like Shugendo and Ryobu Shinto allows room to fold, spindle and "mutilate" (adapt, really) doctrinal sources. The divide between folk tradition and the Buddhist clergy is something you find throughout Asia, so I wouldn't be too quick to compare any manifestation in a folk source (like budo) with a core religious source and make off the cuff value judgments.

Eyebeams,

The point I was trying to make was that Hayes' use of the godai does not derive any more from Mikkyo than it does from Ninpo. It is largely his own invention.

Laterz.

 

[heretic888]

I have some of Hayes newest dvd's and he tells of how the Gogyo no kata are a listing device for the different levels of training. furthermore, he defines the difference between Godai and Go gyo no kata, and in his To-shindo course, the idea of using levels are present. In fact, his course is based on these levels. No mention of "feeling" present. He mentions more of an Elemental "motion" when relating to Gogyo and godai. He then tells of how the Godai come from indian philosphy and Gogyo from Japan.

Well, I haven't seen any of Hayes' newer material so I can't comment there.

However, I feel we are collapsing concepts here. When I say "levels", I am explicitly invoking the notion of a hierarchy here. In a hierarchical schema, a senior level is intrinsically superior or better than a junior level (which is definitely how the elements are treated in, say, the chakra systems).

Are you therefore suggesting that, say, "fire" methods in Hayes' system are instrinsically superior to "earth" and "water" methods?? If not, then you are simply invoking chronological stages and not hierarchical stages.

Laterz.

 

[Shogun]

Not sure how he uses the levels. I think its more of a rock paper scissors deal. ????

It is possible that the Hierarchy is Ground water fire wind void. not sure. just posting what Hayes says on his dvds.

regards,
Kyle

 

[Fallen Ninja]

I think it is just a feeling that one would have when they train. I heard somewhere that there are some of the same techniques found throughout the course with a different feel. I don't think anyone would be better than the other. Where is Ginary Aurthorden when you need them?')

I'm still trying to figure our the new level of Hicho No Kata we went over last night. And the bruises on my face because of it.

:ninja:
FN

 

[Shogun]

Last time I practiced Hicho No Kamae vigorlously, we were Kicking each other....well...low.
that was at Tenchijin seminar. good painful material

 

[Fallen Ninja]

What always amazes me is that one can disect the Kata down to the basic movement and derive a whole lesson from it. The henka you can get from just one Kata is awesome.

:ninja:
FN

by the way... doesn't this look like Ku of the San Shin? :btg:

 

[Don Roley]

I guess he could have asked his wife, Rumiko. she speaks.

Except, at the time he was having these conversations, he wasn't married to her. He probably did not even meet her until well into training.

 

[Fallen Ninja]

Except, at the time he was having these conversations, he wasn't married to her. He probably did not even meet her until well into training.

Now, now Don you don't know when he was married.
:whip:

"ninja"
FN

 

[Gina Jordan]

Don
If you spent time looking at the Stephen K Hayes web site instead of throwing out Anti Stephen K Hayes misinformation you would see that it says that Stephen and Rumiko Hayes have been married for 25 years. Now based on the fact that we are now living in 2005, that takes us back to 1980. This fact however has been on the website for quite a while so this takes us back to maybe at least 1979. Now they did not meet and marry on the same day, and I know for a fact that An Shu Rumiko was training before they got married, so this I guess takes us back at least in the late 70s.

There is also of course a picture that floats around which shows Stephen and Rumiko Hayes pictured with Grandmaster Hatsumi in 1983 which is still before most of us had even heard of Ninjutsu, let alone trained in it.

If people just spent a little more time viewing the web site, reading An Shu Hayes books and visiting Quest L, there would be no need for most of the questions and statements that appear on this and other posts.

And before anyone mentions the name again, this is being sorted out. However Fallen Nimja writes:

Where is Ginary Aurthorden when you need them?'

Love the name. Maybe one day when I start my own Ninjutsu school I might actually call it Aurthoden Ryu as I like the DEN bit at the end. Sounds a bit like Kukishinden (Joke. This is me operating from the fire level).

Oh and in regard to all these questions on the Godai i.e. is it hierachical or just a way of compartmentalising strategies?

Well once again the answers are out there if one takes the time to look. A little time researching might actually be better than listening to some of the non Stephen K Hayes people who are either badly informed or have an axe to grind.

If people wish to PM me in regard to the Godai, feel free and I can maybe point you to some good sources, or even better sign on to Quest L and speak to students of An Shu Hayes.

Ginary Aurthoden
www.toshindo.co.uk

 

[Don Roley]

Don
If you spent time looking at the Stephen K Hayes web site instead of throwing out Anti Stephen K Hayes misinformation you would see that it says that Stephen and Rumiko Hayes have been married for 25 years.

Except that when I first got into ninjutsu in the early 80s, I remember the announcement when they were married. If you have original copies of his early books, there is no mention of her as his wife and she is still using her maiden name of Urata. Thus she and he got married after he started coming out with the books.

Was it really needed to be as nasty as you were? Especially since I was right and knew more about the subject matter as usual?

 

[Cryozombie]

Oh and in regard to all these questions on the Godai i.e. is it hierachical or just a way of compartmentalising strategies?

Well once again the answers are out there if one takes the time to look.

Does this mean "I have the answer but I am not telling you" or "I dont know, but want to sound like I do"?

If you know, why not share?

 

[heretic888]

Oh and in regard to all these questions on the Godai i.e. is it hierachical or just a way of compartmentalising strategies?

Well once again the answers are out there if one takes the time to look. A little time researching might actually be better than listening to some of the non Stephen K Hayes people who are either badly informed or have an axe to grind.

I guess you consider Mr. Hayes' own books (especially his five-part Ohara series) and the To-Shin Do website (www.skhquest.com) to be "bad" sources of information, then. Because those are precisely where I was deriving my information from.

Also, I don't have an axe to grind against Mr. Hayes. I am actually thankful for all he has done, as his 1984 Ninjutsu: The Art of the Invisible Warrior was my very first exposure to authentic ninpo. Many of us in the West would probably have never even heard of the Bujinkan if it wasn't for Mr. Hayes.

However, regardless of how much we like someone or are grateful to them, facts are facts. Nothing can change that. And the facts are that much of the material that Mr. Hayes expounds --- from the straight-bladed ninja-to to the historical ninja as religiously oppressed outcasts to his particular usage of the godai --- are his own inventions. They are based directly on neither ninpo nor mikkyo, but on his own perceptions. Its as simple as that.

Laterz.

 

[Cryozombie]

his particular usage of the godai --- are his own inventions. They are based directly on neither ninpo nor mikkyo, but on his own perceptions. Its as simple as that.

Laterz.

So, in relation to my question earlier that went unanswered, these didnt develop out of the translations of the Sanshin as "earth pattern" or "Fire pattern" etc?

 

[Gina Jordan]

Strange that considering I have a copy of History and Traditions that was published in 1981 (first edition) which states in the Acknowledgement

"This book would not have been possible without the cooperation and encouragement of my student, Shidoshi Stephen K. Hayes, and blooming in the shadows, the kunoichi Rumiko. May happiness last forever for them, and may their family continue to grow..."

Now your quote was

Except, at the time he was having these conversations, he wasn't married to her. He probably did not even meet her until well into training.

Now if we take the fact that most books take at least 12 months to get published, once again this takes us back to 1980 at least.

Now OK so this does not state that they were married, but it does show they knew each other.

Now why would An Shu Hayes lie on his web site about how long he had been married to Rumiko Hayes do you think, for to do so afords him no advantage in the world of Ninjutsu. So maybe they got married in 1980, but I can tell you that Rumiko was working with, and so knew Stephen K Hayes whilst he lived in Japan in the early days.

As for An Shu Rumiko using her name Urata, well there are many couples that do this in the business world, so who knows why this was done.

Now I could talk about how Stephen and Rumiko met and how Rumiko got into training in the early days, and some amusing stories that go along it, as told to me by Rumiko and Stephen following the last UK seminar, but I do not think that these converstaions are for the net, as they are private to those two individuals, unless of course they themselves wish to discuss them with others.

Was it really needed to be as nasty as you were? Especially since I was right and knew more about the subject matter as usual?

I don't think I was being nasty Don, it just annoys me that the information is out there but it seems better to rely on rumour, and speculation i.e.

Except, at the time he was having these conversations, he wasn't married to her. He probably did not even meet her until well into training.

and then

I remember the announcement when they were married.

So when was this Don, this announcement. maybe you have something in print? Maybe something from a newspaper article or is this just another rumour that maybe took a year or so to get to you.

So Don you actually maybe wrong on this one.

Gary Arthur

 

[Gina Jordan]

Technopunk wrote:

Does this mean "I have the answer but I am not telling you" or "I dont know, but want to sound like I do"?

If you know, why not share?

It means neither. It means that I am unwilling to get into a thread war with people who just wish to pull apart the whole Go Dai thing. If you wish to PM me we can talk about it as you seem genuinely interested, although anything I say will of course be from my point of view, or even better speak to much higher qualified people than myself on Quest L. These guys I am sure will try to answer you questions.

Gary Arthur

 

[Gina Jordan]

Heretic Writes

However, regardless of how much we like someone or are grateful to them, facts are facts. Nothing can change that. And the facts are that much of the material that Mr. Hayes expounds --- from the straight-bladed ninja-to to the historical ninja as religiously oppressed outcasts to his particular usage of the godai --- are his own inventions. They are based directly on neither ninpo nor mikkyo, but on his own perceptions. Its as simple as that.

Now I thought this Straight Bladed ninja sword thing had been discussed elsewhere. In Lore of the Shinobi Warrior Book five in the chapter "Myths of Ninjutsu" it clearly states that this idea is a cultural sterotype, and goes on to say where the misinformation possibly comes from. He then goes on to say that in Dr Hatsumis collection the majority of swords do not fall into this catergory. If one views the Stephen K Hayes DVDs one will be hard bushed to find a straight bladed sword, except possibly on the shuriken DVD, but then one can't really tell if the blade is straight as one does not, if I remember correctly, see all the blade. Its probably just a cheap blade that they did not mind damaging considering they were throwing metal shuriken at it.

Gary Arthur

 

[Don Roley]

Gary,
I think you are mistaken about the dates, but it is only a periphreal issue.

The issue is how well Hayes got this information from Hatsumi on the Godai. The matter of Rumiko's relation is only relevant to the idea that she sat in on the conversations and translated. There is no indication that she did.

First of all, can you tell us who she was a student of while training in Japan? I am not talking about Hatsumi of course. We know Hayes trained under Tanemura and Bussy went to Nagato's. But who did Rumiko train under? There is no mention I can find that would tell me.

I looked on line because someone just sent me a letter saying that she did not train in Japan and met Hayes there, she met Hayes and then started training under or with him. I do not know if this is true or not. She is from Kyushu, not the Noda area. A good percentage of the time Hayes spent in Japan has been down in Kyushu rather than in Noda. Having in-laws myself I can sympathize with having to go see them to avoid troubles at visiting Japan and spending all his time in Noda. And since she is not from the Noda area, it would be difficult for her to get hooked up with training. Unless it was from meeting Hayes.

But you mentioned Secrets of the Grandmaster. You don't seem to realize that it may be one of the first times she had a conversation with Hatsumi.

Let me back up and point out that Hayes' earliest works were on the Godai he developed. The conversations he had with Hatsumi about the subject would have been before that and the question is how well he could have understood what was being said, how deep a conversation he could have had and how easy it would be to make a mistake. Of course, if Rumiko was there (as you want people to believe but can't seem to point to a resource) then his chances of getting the information correctly would go up.

Now in the book, Hayes explains about the Iguana style ninjutsu joke. The story is supposably that after Hayes' first books came out there were a lot of frauds who came out of the woodwork and they tried to copy Hayes as best they could. Hatsumi made the comment at that time that they should have made an art and called it Iguana style ninjutsu and shown pictures of them doing things like sticking their tounges out, etc to see just how fast the frauds would start copying that stuff.

Now here is the key- Hayes is explaining the joke to Rumiko.

First you have the conversations that supposably lead to the Godai model and the publishing of his early books.

Then you have the frauds copying and the joke about Iguana style ninjutsu.

And after the above two are over Rumiko becomes part of the talks with Hatsumi and has to be told things like the joke.

So, to be able to have helped Hayes to get a complete understanding of what Hatsumi was saying, she would have had to have been there at the first point in the time line. She was there at the third, but not before that it seems. So the amount of information Hayes could have gotten on his limited Japanese was quite limited.

And I think that maybe the stretching of the 'maybes' about things like her being there to translate have gone a little far. Can you show some sort of valid proof to back up the idea that she was there, or are you relying soley on conjecture? We can conjecture and say 'maybe' about a lot of things. Can we show a comment by Hatsumi or something like that that could prove she was there as you want us to believe?