Where did the SKH stuff come from?

[saru1968]

Prob best to ask SKH that....

Now, its good you are defending Gary but we are all responsible for our behaviour.

Anyhow its old news now and i hope you've enjoyed your posting flurry to bump all these old threads...

Gaz.

 

[SKB]

Some of you should make time to train with some of the "To-Shin Do" people. The concepts your talking about make more sense when your doing them then talking about them. The really make a lot of sense when you exsperiance them! I happen to be one of the "To-Shin Do" people but in no way do I think I am the one to exsplain the concepts to you guys. I have not been training long enough.

 

[Arachne]

I agree SKB, Gary Arthur told me of this weasel who talked so much behind Stephen K Haye's back, about how he was crap, this and that, talking too much. The kind of thing little girls do in school.

The day came and Stephen walked in, the fool dropped to the ground sinking and bowed, extending his arm for a shake.. almost kissing his feet like a filthy rat.

Just an example of people with big mouths, but when it actually comes down to it.. :whip1:


"The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool." William Shakespeare

 

[Don Roley]

I agree SKB, Gary Arthur told me of this weasel who talked so much behind Stephen K Haye's back, about how he was crap, this and that, talking too much. The kind of thing little girls do in school.

The day came and Stephen walked in, the fool dropped to the ground sinking and bowed, extending his arm for a shake.. almost kissing his feet like a filthy rat.

Just an example of people with big mouths, but when it actually comes down to it.. :whip1:

I think you should consider the source, and the irony.

I do believe there is justification to think that the story is at least a little embellished. And when you consider that this is a story told behind someone's back about how they were talking about someone behind someone's back, you kind of have to wonder about the irony.:roflmao:

 

[SKB]

Well since the topic here seems to have been "Where did SKH stuff come from?" I have a question for all of you training in Japan or else where. Do you see the same techniques in the To-Shin Do, stuff you have been exsposed to, as is being taught in Japan? How far away are the things you have seen from what you are being taught. Is it as far away as say........ you wanted to learn how to pitch a baseball and I take you to a bowling alley and teach you to roll a big ball on the floor? Or is the stuff the same stuff presented in a diffrent manner? I am talking about the physical techniques. Is a 'musha dori' (I might of messed up the spelling) diffrent there then what I am learning. In my limited exsperiance, with the different interpertations of ninjutsu, I get the impression the biggest diffrence is the presentation.

 

[Arachne]

Don Roley -
Is representation not a matter of reconstruction?


SKB
I also have very limited experience of To-Shin Do. I have very limited knowledge on this area in general but im learning. My experience so far, is enough to say my Sensei can walk the martial walk & talk the martial talk.
[/B]It would be nice if there was other Video's or concrete observable material of the different forms of Ninjutsu. This way we could analyse the differences based on some raw visual data.

 

[stephen]

Don Roley -
Is representation not a matter of reconstruction?


SKB
I also have very limited experience of To-Shin Do. I have very limited knowledge on this area in general but im learning. My experience so far, is enough to say my Sensei can walk the martial walk & talk the martial talk.
[/b]It would be nice if there was other Video's or concrete observable material of the different forms of Ninjutsu. This way we could analyse the differences based on some raw visual data.

If you can analyze it with 'raw visual data' it ain't ninjutsu.

 

[Arachne]

Very good point! "Ninjutsu" as a what the word means can't really be spoken in that way. I am at error & thankyou for the correction.

I was trying to follow on from SKB's point. To put it simply, it would be nice if there was some presentation's of particular martial artist's studying one of the various forms of Ninjutsu.

This way we could look at differences between those artists presenting those forms & have a wonder/Philosophise about how they might interact with each other.

Regardless of this, this has deviated significantly from the major question & without further ado..

Where did the SKH stuff come from?

This question kind of answers itself dont you think?

Is it not just a matter of Stephen K Haye's interpreting what he has learnt - in his own way, and creating his own "stuff".

 

[Don Roley]

I am talking about the physical techniques.

The person who started this thread seeking answers was not.

I dealt with the rest of the matter in my last post in another thread.

 

[SKB]

I was going somewhere with the post, if Mr. Hayes got the physical stuff while in Japan does it not seem natural he might of got some of the other stuff from there as well? In my exsperiance, not just with To-Shin Do, when you are training at some point folks talk. Every instructor I have ever trained with has spoke about not just the physical part of their art during training. Are we to assume this did not happen when "they" were training way back when???????? Did training back then just consist of silently throwing people around? Did no one have a cup of coffee, or I guess tea, and just talk to one another?

 

[Don Roley]

I was going somewhere with the post, if Mr. Hayes got the physical stuff while in Japan does it not seem natural he might of got some of the other stuff from there as well? In my exsperiance, not just with To-Shin Do, when you are training at some point folks talk. Every instructor I have ever trained with has spoke about not just the physical part of their art during training. Are we to assume this did not happen when "they" were training way back when????????

Talk to the guys I train under here in Japan. They were there when Hayes started training and before. They will tell you that what he says does not come from the Bujinkan.

There is a danger in speculating like you are. You can build great scenarios that sound so great that you don't want to give them up later. Best to just ask the source. I have and Hayes did not get a lot of his stuff from the Bujinkan. In fact, I think he even admitted it in something linked to at the beggining of this thread.

 

[lalom]

Read what those who train in Japan and under Hatsumi Soke. It is good stuff. However, if you intend to and have chosen to train in To-Shin Do, your source for material is SKH. Don't forget that.

Listen to what these guys share. Their knowledge and experience in taijutsu is priceless.

 

[SKB]

Talk to the guys I train under here in Japan. They were there when Hayes started training and before. They will tell you that what he says does not come from the Bujinkan.

There is a danger in speculating like you are. You can build great scenarios that sound so great that you don't want to give them up later. Best to just ask the source. I have and Hayes did not get a lot of his stuff from the Bujinkan. In fact, I think he even admitted it in something linked to at the beggining of this thread.

Ok I'll bite Mr. Roley......... what do they say about Mr. Hayes? I'll flip back through the thread and see if I can find the link you wrote of.......

Read what those who train in Japan and under Hatsumi Soke. It is good stuff. However, if you intend to and have chosen to train in To-Shin Do, your source for material is SKH. Don't forget that.

Listen to what these guys share. Their knowledge and experience in taijutsu is priceless.

I am hoping you did not mean my only source is not..... what qualified or something along those lines????? I might be mistaken but doesn't Mr. Hayes have paper work from Japan saying he is qualified to teach???

Either way, does anyone have any web sites I can look at to get other sources of information????

 

[lalom]

SKB I'm sorry I didn't understand the last part of your post. Please clarify.

 

[SKB]

SKB I'm sorry I didn't understand the last part of your post. Please clarify.

To clarify. I interpreted your statement to mean Mr. Hayes is some how unqualified on the subject of Ninjutsu and since this is my source I am at some sort of loss. Beleive this or not.......... I read other material and train with folks who are not To-Shin Do from time to time. I truely attempt to not limit myself to where my information comes from. It would be narrow minded of me to think I could learn everything I need from one source.

 

[lalom]

To clarify. I interpreted your statement to mean Mr. Hayes is some how unqualified on the subject of Ninjutsu and since this is my source I am at some sort of loss. Beleive this or not.......... I read other material and train with folks who are not To-Shin Do from time to time. I truely attempt to not limit myself to where my information comes from. It would be narrow minded of me to think I could learn everything I need from one source.

Thanks for your clarification. You indeed did misinterpret my post about An-Shu Hayes. My comment was to merely point out to you that many who do not train in To-Shin Do will tell you to go to a "source" for REAL taijutsu knowledge. My point is this: If your desire and choice to train is in in To-Shin Do, then Mr. Hayes IS the source. He is the founder of our art. He is the source for To-Shin Do students, period. Not to say that others in other arts aren't amazing martial artists, but don't allow what others will say to you to deter you from what your heart has chosen to follow. By all means, learn from other Ninjutsu schools. They have much to offer and be learned. Just don't let anyone tell you what you train in is not valueable, less than, or inferior. Bottom line, it isn't. It's just diffferent.

Bujinkan Budo and To-Shin Do are separate arts. They may look similar to you, but they are not the same.

 

[saru1968]

To clarify. I interpreted your statement to mean Mr. Hayes is some how unqualified on the subject of Ninjutsu and since this is my source I am at some sort of loss. Beleive this or not.......... I read other material and train with folks who are not To-Shin Do from time to time. I truely attempt to not limit myself to where my information comes from. It would be narrow minded of me to think I could learn everything I need from one source.

I think the point was made that if your given art is Toshindo then your source for information is Stephen K Hayes.

Gaz.