When training women should they recieve special treatment ?

[astrobiologist]

ab, I wasn't bagging on you at all and apologize if that seemed to be the case. The remarks were general and not directed at your post.

Good to know

No worries. One thing we both definitely mentioned was younger students. I can see how younger females could have a problem as well, but I've only personally come across situations with young males. In these situations, it was less that the guys were trying to "cop a feel" and more that they were so fearfully shy and afraid that themselves touching a boob would be taken wrong. This would make for an awkward situation and neither student would get a good workout in because of it.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I would not say that Women need special treatment or attention, as much as I would say that every single type of person is going to have their own limitations, and strengths, and dangers inherent to their sex, size, and other attributes.
Small people are going to have to understand that they will have to depend on something other then strength when executing a technique against another person, especially a bigger person.
Males and Females both face certain dangers, obviously the dangers are going to be skewed a little differently for each person, and a great instructor is going to make sure their students are aware of the biggest dangers facing them, and make sure that the student is able to accept those situations, and have some idea on how far they are willing to go to defend themselves.
It does not do a student much good to teach them ina generic manner, and not go over scenarios, or worries, or issues they may face.
Every single person is different, and will require a slightly different approach to get the most out of their training possible.

 

[IcemanSK]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

Since you're unsure what sort of game plan it would take to train these people who are so different from you I think you need to ask yourself whether or not you're up to the task. There's no shame in saying "no, I can't teach you, but I can recommend another place."

 

[chinto]

If their just looking for some self defense moves, then I definitely would teach them differently. But whether male or female, makes no difference. I would leave kata out of it, and stick to easy to learn techniques. If it's a structured class their looking for then they would be taught the same as everyone else, from the bottom up.

I agree

 

[BLACK LION]

Yes... in the sense that it is imperative that thier only focus is injuring the threat. Women are seldom attacked by other women and when I say attacked, I mean rape or murder or something relative. A woman facing a male threat must always assume her life and well being is in danger and must execute ferocious violence on any targets she can access with the sheer goal of injuring that person(s) and shutting them down.
I always stress the eyes-throat-groin first becuase no matter what the threats disposition is...these parts cannot be conditioned to tolerate impact. Were not talking about some shaolin sage that sleeps on spears...were talking about willie the pervert that is tired of peeping and wants some hardcore action...this time he has a hunting knife and some duct tape.

Women need to model success in the most harsh conditions from the start. That starts with injury and continues with injury until satisfied that the threat no longer exists...

I am speaking merely froma survival standpoint and not social or competitive

 

[Drachonius117]

I'm not teacher but our dojo has had its fair share of women martial artists, and in all my experience with them in the dojo is they are there to train just as hard (sometimes harder) the than the guys in our school.

Heck my sensei tends to show them the little extra "OOMPH" needed to take a big 200lb guy down fast and hard. Because usually if women are assaulted its by the bigger men.

And also concerning sparring with them, I usually fight better(I hit them no harder than other people) and faster just because the women in our school have the mindset of I need to go at this guy with all I've got! lol They're tougher to fight than the men lol

 

[Stac3y]

Yes. You should open doors for them and pay for their drinks. :drinkbeer

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

To answer your question, I must ask: train them in what? and special treatment in what regard?

Women have different builds than men. Their body mass is distributed differently and their musculature is different. Women have a lower center of gravity, generally their strength is more lower body while men are more upper body. Women are generally not as tall or as heavy as men.

So depending on what skill set you are training them in, those physiological differences can be an advantage, a challenge, or neither.

Generally, a lady's build gives her an advantage in throwing arts due to the lower center of gravity. Also, I have found that with man and a woman with the same level of conditioning and the same rough height, the lady has stronger kicks and the gent generally has stronger punches. In WTF taekwondo sparring, that is an advantage. In western boxing, not so much.

Having said that, I've seen guys who kick like mules and cannot punch through a time card and women who cannot kick above their ankles but punch like they have a pair of sledgehammers for hands.

A lot also depends on the person's previous athletic experience. A lady who is in good physical shape, who exercises regularly will be in a different place than a lady who does not. Same with guys, but you are asking about training women.

Rather than concerning yourself with special treatment for gender, look at the complete picture of your student's attributes. Their gender is less important than their overall conditioning. If the students are winded just walking from the car to dojo, you need to address that in your training regimen regardless of their gender. If your students are all blackbelts from a sport TKD school and can do vertical side kicks but no practical SD, then you'll want to focus on SD.

With any student, regardless of gender, they need to be trained to take into account their body type and inherent strengths and weaknesses, as everyone has both.

If you are doing belt tests, gear the tests towards proficiency in the technique, not according to gender, age, or any other factor.

Best wishes to you and your students.

Daniel

 

[KELLYG]

OP I think that is a great compliment that these lady's value your opinion enough that they are willing to take lessons from you that could possibly save there lives. That is very cool.

One would have to consider the reasons that they are being attacked may be different from a male A) because they appear weaker or an easier target. B) because they appear to be easy to control. C) or as a sexual target.

I take my self defenses seriously for the above reasons. All self defenses are not created equal and this really does not have anything to do with the sex of the defender. If you are instructing a self defense and you see that, while it is being practiced that it would not work as designed it can be modified the meet the needs of the individual student. I have worked on many different self defense tactics/scenarios and some I would use in the real world and some I would not, due to my on personal strengths. But it is nice that I have had some exposure to all of them.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Yes... in the sense that it is imperative that thier only focus is injuring the threat. Women are seldom attacked by other women

Actually that's not true. Women have been known to attack other women in the same way men attack other men. There are some "alpha females" that like to show they're tough by beating the crap out of some other girl. It's a common gang initiation. Also, let's not forget about that video posted on youtube of those teenage girls beating some poor girl half to death just for the fun of it.

and when I say attacked, I mean rape or murder or something relative. A woman facing a male threat must always assume her life and well being is in danger and must execute ferocious violence on any targets she can access with the sheer goal of injuring that person(s) and shutting them down.

Always assume? So if a guy at a bar gets a little too "touchy-feely" a woman should gouge his eyes out and crush his throat and sack? That's a quick way to go to prision. Just like with men, there are variying degrees of violence against women. What of domestic abuse where a husband slaps around his wife. He's not intending to kill her just humilate her, so she should be able to defend herself through martial training without resulting to cold blodded killing. The goal should be to escape from danger and there are times when that may require a person to permanently injure an attacker, but it is erronious to assume this shuld always be the case.

I always stress the eyes-throat-groin first becuase no matter what the threats disposition is...these parts cannot be conditioned to tolerate impact.

But they can be defended by almost anyone. Eyes, throat, and groins are targets everyone knows they should defend, so tactics must be used to open up these areas, plus I posted in another thread a situation were gouging a person's eyes didn't work. Never assume a person will go down because you've torn out their eyes, curshed their balls, and destroyed their throat. Can they die from these injuries, yes. Is it always immediate, no. And again these don't address non-life threatening attacks.


Unless someone has a special circumstance such as a physical disability, a learning disability, or perhaps been traumatized by some kind of sexual or violent encounter, no adult should be treated different than any other adult within the dojo regardless of sex, sexual orientation..yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

[BLACK LION]

are we talking survival or social interaction.... you are speaking of social I am speaking of survival... on that level, I disagree with your entire post.

bottom line.... train them to dance or train them to destroy.... you cannot have both... regardless of what you think...

and no... the eyes-throat and groin are not some universally defended areas that everyone knows about... they are vaible targets and in fact weak spots on evey man and animal.

I bet you didnt know that if you poke a pit bull in the bung hole with a stick his jaws will unlock... imagine that

 

[Aiki Lee]

...ok...

"the eyes-throat and groin are not some universally defended areas that everyone knows about"

Are you saying that people aren't aware of their eyes, throat and groin? If I tried to kick you in the nuts or poke you in the yes, would you NOT try to stop me from doing that?

Your posts are convincing me more and more that you have very little knowledge about combat and the nature of fighting.

What does poking a pitbull in the *** have to do with anything anyway?

 

[Kacey]

To answer your question, I must ask: train them in what? and special treatment in what regard?

Women have different builds than men. Their body mass is distributed differently and their musculature is different. Women have a lower center of gravity, generally their strength is more lower body while men are more upper body. Women are generally not as tall or as heavy as men.

So depending on what skill set you are training them in, those physiological differences can be an advantage, a challenge, or neither.

Generally, a lady's build gives her an advantage in throwing arts due to the lower center of gravity. Also, I have found that with man and a woman with the same level of conditioning and the same rough height, the lady has stronger kicks and the gent generally has stronger punches. In WTF taekwondo sparring, that is an advantage. In western boxing, not so much.

Having said that, I've seen guys who kick like mules and cannot punch through a time card and women who cannot kick above their ankles but punch like they have a pair of sledgehammers for hands.

A lot also depends on the person's previous athletic experience. A lady who is in good physical shape, who exercises regularly will be in a different place than a lady who does not. Same with guys, but you are asking about training women.

Rather than concerning yourself with special treatment for gender, look at the complete picture of your student's attributes. Their gender is less important than their overall conditioning. If the students are winded just walking from the car to dojo, you need to address that in your training regimen regardless of their gender. If your students are all blackbelts from a sport TKD school and can do vertical side kicks but no practical SD, then you'll want to focus on SD.

With any student, regardless of gender, they need to be trained to take into account their body type and inherent strengths and weaknesses, as everyone has both.

If you are doing belt tests, gear the tests towards proficiency in the technique, not according to gender, age, or any other factor.

Best wishes to you and your students.

Daniel

Very nicely stated - and pretty much what I was planning to say as well, but I see no reason to restate what you said so clearly.

Do I treat women differently than men? Only in the sense that I treat each student as an individual, with his/her own experiences, needs, strengths, and difficulties. Anything else would be unfair to the students.

 

[Aikicomp]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

Firstly, to treat females different than males would be a disservice to them and an embarrasment and a disgrace to you as a teacher.

Training is training, obviously if there are other considerations (physical, phsycological, ect.) then I would work around that and give them other options to achieve the same end result.

The women I've trained....... I've trained and was harder on them (including my wife) if anything and they were better for it. They were also harder on themselves than I ever was.........at times.

Michael

 

[Drac]

You do your female charges a dis-service if you treat them differently..

 

[Flea]

I don't know about any of the other ladies at MT, but when I go to class I always insist on an immaculately wrapped gift basket brimming with tampons and Hershey bars ...

:dramaqueen:

 

[shihansmurf]

I bet you didnt know that if you poke a pit bull in the bung hole with a stick his jaws will unlock... imagine that

Himura Kenshin
What does poking a pitbull in the *** have to do with anything anyway?

This has got to be the weirdest exchange I've yet to read on martialtalk. I have to admit that I've never considered the deadly "poke the pitbull in the *** with a stick" defense. Handy, I imagine, if one were teaching Michael Vick.



I am forced to wonder at the experimentation that led to the discovery of this technique.

"Well, Bob, I've been thinking. For tonights' class were going to work on self defens againg suprise pit bull maulings."

"Bwaa!!"

"Oh I know its a suprise, but I thought it would be a good idea to be prepared for it, you know, just in case. Now since you've healed up from our orangutang training, I think were ready to begin."

"Okay......"

"Now, here's what you do. When it attack you it'll probably lock its jaws and thrash around. I want you to try repeated head strikes. Got it? Good. Okay I'm letting Fluffy out of the cage!"

"AAUGHH!!! GOD IT HURTS!!! HELP!! PLEASE!!!!"

"Oh hell, that didn't work, try pulling its ears!!"

"OW!OW!OW!OW!"

"Oh go, I'm gonna get sued again. I gotta do something. I know, I'll poke it in the *** with a stick. Most things hate that."

"moan....whimper...bleed...."

"Wow..it worked..and as soon as this pit bull stops chasing me, I'll have a new technique to add to the schools curriclum. Sweet!"


Mark

 

[KELLYG]

Shihansmurf,

Thanks for the post I laughed till I cried!!!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

and no... the eyes-throat and groin are not some universally defended areas that everyone knows about...

Actually, they are. Everyone in grade school knows how to sock another kid in the eye, jam another kid in the throat and kick another kid in the groin.

These are viable targets, but they are also small targets. The groin is the easiest to go after because most people are unskilled in guarding below the belt. Most everyone instinctively tries to keep things away from their head and neck area.

they are vaible targets and in fact weak spots on evey man and animal.

I bet you didnt know that if you poke a pit bull in the bung hole with a stick his jaws will unlock... imagine that

Believe it or not, pit bull attacks have happened enough in Maryland that Prince Georges County has actually outlawed the ownership of pitbulls. Needless to say, I never thought of doing this to a dog latched onto me, but if it ever happens, I will have another option to try if gouging out its eyes or tearing off its testicles (if male) fail to make the point.

Someone asked how this technique was figured out, and I would presume that someone figured it out back when training pitbulls to fight and wanted a means of disengaging the dog from whatever person or other dog it had clamped down on. I would not know, as I have never been involved in training a dog in that manner.

Having said that, I would imagine that forceful insertion of a stick into the rectum of any creature would cause it to stop what it was doing.

Daniel

 

[BLACK LION]

...ok...

"the eyes-throat and groin are not some universally defended areas that everyone knows about"

Are you saying that people aren't aware of their eyes, throat and groin? If I tried to kick you in the nuts or poke you in the yes, would you NOT try to stop me from doing that?It doesnt matter how aware you are. That does not negate the fact that it is a weakness that can be injured and will provide a spinal reflex. You cannot condidtion you eyeballs to take punishment like you can the rest of the body...same with the throat, groin, inner ear and anus....
Yes one can defend against a kick to the groin or a finger jab to the eye but a full bore charge into the target area with my entire body weight will be much more difficult to address than simply trying to block or defend.... you continuosly compare social to non social... were talking prison versus private school...

Your posts are convincing me more and more that you have very little knowledge about combat and the nature of fighting. I can say the same thing but I have more respect. Its clear to me that you do not understand the difference between combat and combat sports.

What does poking a pitbull in the *** have to do with anything anyway?Its a clear example that no matter how determined and capable the beast... they cannot control spinal reflex. Unless they have no central nervous system, which is impossible.

I am coming from the far extreme which is what I train for... comparing that to a social encounter makes zero sense....