When to Use Excessive Force

[Si-Je]

Looks like shoot wrestling to me. They train wrestling, Martial Arts styles such as Okinawan Karate, Judo, and Jujutsu.
That video looked like a really BAD position to be in period. We're talking urban warfare here. Where people come out of the woodwork to shoot you. There's no cover in that position, you don't stay there long.
These are training drills, not the end product of their combat training.
Man, Hubbie's gonna POOP! a brick. lol! Hates that their teaching the Army BJJ. He was a MCMAP instructor in the marine corps, and trained other arts to help put into the system.
Still a good way to learn wrestling sensitivity. Don't wrestlers start off in a similar position?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program

Looks like BJJ to me..

If someone tries to take you to the ground then yes you might pull guard so he does not get on top of you and try to stab you.

In guard you might have a chance to reach for your gun end the conflict instead of sitting there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-U1eGcXXc0&feature=related

Look his hand is free to shoot him!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Very interesting links Jade cloud!

Since your alchemist can you make some gold out of water for me?

 

[Joab]

You should never use excessive force, only the force needed to defend yourself, and only deadly force against a deadly attack. You should run if at all possible, and use self defense only in the amount a reasonable person would do in the same situation. Consult an attorney in your area as to self defense laws and what is considered reasonable use of force.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

When should it be deemed an okay time to maime or paralyse someone?

You should never use excessive force, only the force needed to defend yourself, and only deadly force against a deadly attack. You should run if at all possible, and use self defense only in the amount a reasonable person would do in the same situation. Consult an attorney in your area as to self defense laws and what is considered reasonable use of force.

 

[Mystic Wolf]

As a MCMAP instructor, we take what works and discard what doesn't work. With BJJ we only use a few basic moves, primarialy we use Aiki Ju-Jitsu, Akido, WT, Muy Tai, Judo, and Karate.
Here's a video:

MCMAP instructor training program. This was tougher than going to bootcamp. Some of the hardest training I've done in my life.

 

[Mystic Wolf]

Use of Excessive Force, is determined by court of law. When would I use it, with my training background as a Marine and a martial artist.
I would use this "excessive force" when I feel my family or myself is in danger of bodily harm or worse. I have been arrested for using "excessive force", but the judge dissmised the case when it was brought to his attention that I was attacked by 5 guys. The story goes like this: I just returned from Kosovo and started attending college. I was dating a girl that broke up with her boyfriend to see me, and he got jealous. When I pulled into a gas station to put gas in the car, him and his friends blocked my car with their cars so I couldn't leave. And surrounded me. Without thinking I reacted and took all 5 out, and was the only one standing when the sheriff came in, without a mark on me, so I was the one arrested at that time.
I posted bail, and when it went to trial the judge read what happened and dismissed the case because it was 5 to 1.
The moral of the story is: if you know your in the right then the courts will be in your favor.

 

[mook jong man]

Use of Excessive Force, is determined by court of law. When would I use it, with my training background as a Marine and a martial artist.
I would use this "excessive force" when I feel my family or myself is in danger of bodily harm or worse. I have been arrested for using "excessive force", but the judge dissmised the case when it was brought to his attention that I was attacked by 5 guys. The story goes like this: I just returned from Kosovo and started attending college. I was dating a girl that broke up with her boyfriend to see me, and he got jealous. When I pulled into a gas station to put gas in the car, him and his friends blocked my car with their cars so I couldn't leave. And surrounded me. Without thinking I reacted and took all 5 out, and was the only one standing when the sheriff came in, without a mark on me, so I was the one arrested at that time.
I posted bail, and when it went to trial the judge read what happened and dismissed the case because it was 5 to 1.
The moral of the story is: if you know your in the right then the courts will be in your favor.

Love your work , soldier.

 

[Mystic Wolf]

Thank you.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I heard of similiar stories...this is so true...

Use of Excessive Force, is determined by court of law. When would I use it, with my training background as a Marine and a martial artist.
I would use this "excessive force" when I feel my family or myself is in danger of bodily harm or worse. I have been arrested for using "excessive force", but the judge dissmised the case when it was brought to his attention that I was attacked by 5 guys. The story goes like this: I just returned from Kosovo and started attending college. I was dating a girl that broke up with her boyfriend to see me, and he got jealous. When I pulled into a gas station to put gas in the car, him and his friends blocked my car with their cars so I couldn't leave. And surrounded me. Without thinking I reacted and took all 5 out, and was the only one standing when the sheriff came in, without a mark on me, so I was the one arrested at that time.
I posted bail, and when it went to trial the judge read what happened and dismissed the case because it was 5 to 1.
The moral of the story is: if you know your in the right then the courts will be in your favor.

 

[GBlues]

When 1 guy attacks you it could be considered an old fashioned attempt at an *** woopin'. When it's more than 1 it's life threatening. My opinion. Doesn't take 2 guys to dole out a stomping, unless they want to do more than that. My grandfather used to tell me that, " When your fighting that S.O.B., is doing everything in his power to kill you, and you'd better be willing to do the same. Or you may wind up dead." My dad, he used to tell me the same thing, except for this, " When your fighting, you don't stop until he aint moving anymore, or he's begging you to stop or, somebody pulls you off, when one of those three things happens stop!" Excessive force, is one of those things that really is a matter of opinion. My grandfather considered every fist fight a matter of war. In reality that's what it is, war. A war between two people. All a war is, is a big fist fight between two or more countries, using men,women, and weapons. Simple that's all. All a fight is, is war between two or more people utilizing there bodies, or other weapons to inflict as much bodily harm on an individual, or individuals as they possibly can to either, conquer, or defend. Simple. When your life is in danger, there is nothing that is excessive. Being alive even if your in prison is better than being dead.

With that being said, I leave you with this quote, from Tim Larkin.
-" Violence is rarely the answer, but when it is it's the only answer"-

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Looks like shoot wrestling to me. They train wrestling, Martial Arts styles such as Okinawan Karate, Judo, and Jujutsu.
That video looked like a really BAD position to be in period. We're talking urban warfare here. Where people come out of the woodwork to shoot you. There's no cover in that position, you don't stay there long.
These are training drills, not the end product of their combat training.
Man, Hubbie's gonna POOP! a brick. lol! Hates that their teaching the Army BJJ. He was a MCMAP instructor in the marine corps, and trained other arts to help put into the system.
Still a good way to learn wrestling sensitivity. Don't wrestlers start off in a similar position?

Hmm does not look like Koryu Jujutsu to me. But since BJJ derives from Judo and specialize in Newaza same difference.

I was giving an idea of when pulling guard MAY come in use.

If someone is on top of you trying to stab you pulling guard MAY allow you
to use leverage or hold him long enough to reach for a weapon.
I personally would not want someone sitting on my chest trying to stab me hence guard MAY come in handy.

Since your alchemist can you make some gold out of water for me?

Are you trying to be a Smart as* because this some what comes off as disrespectful and some people would Negative rep you for comments like that. If it is a sincere question then start a thread about it.

Anyway my point has been made I am done with this thread.

 

[Si-Je]

Okay, everywhere I go online people talk about BJJ whether it's a comment on a WT clip, or anyother art. This is some hard core brain washing going on a mass scale.
Everyone does BJJ now? Everytime people see folks on the ground fighting, oh! it's gotta be BJJ! Since BJJ came from every art, and is in everything, since it is the oldest martial art around!(I actually heard a BJJ instructor tell his student's that one on a t.v. news channel!)
BJJ's a sport, plain and simple. If the marines do it it's for fun. But, whatever, no point trying to convince people of anything these days.
Didn't mean to come off attacking you personally, it's just something that's been frustrating me lately.
Can't wait until hubbie gets a fight! We got a video camra last night. Gotta start carrying that with me everywhere. See If my big mouth can get him some fights to put online. %-}

If everyone wants to take BJJ, that's fine with me. Actually, works out better for me. lol! And baby girl is already on the road to being a *sskicker on the ground, so that's all that's important to me.

 

[Kreth]

If I am afraid someone is going to hurt me and they enter my home. I have no problem with ending theirs. I think like this. If they are enemy and live they may come back to kill me. I have heard stories of too many people who have fought people and beat them so badly that when their attackers healed they came back with semi automatics to kill them. The best thing to do is kill a scumbag. If not he will retalitate with gun fire. If he can't beat you with the hands then here he comes with gun. I hear and see it too many times. Even my Sihing can testify to this. Thats why he always keeps a gun on him everywhere he goes. lol...He is very skilled in Wing Chun and has defeated some top fighters in other arts.
But if you beat up somepeople who are trying to rob you. They will be embarssed and out of pride they will try to sneak up on you an shoot you in the back. Better not leave surviviors because they become avengers. I always think in the back of head. If I beat him he may possibly want revenge. So someone coming into my house to do me harm will never live. Because they know where I stay. They have my address. Now on the street with someone I may never see again thats a different story. But you coming to my house. You may do 18 months if I am lucky than your out looking for home of residence to get your revenge only this time your not going to be so foolish. Your going to make sure you keep your gun far from me instead of pulling it out when your chi sau distance. So I rather get my 44 and end their life instead of looking over my shoulders every day.

So....... how many people have you killed, or is this just a theory? :idunno:

 

[Si-Je]

So....... how many people have you killed, or is this just a theory? :idunno:

That's a deeply personal question to ask someone, especially when it is pretty well known that they feel strongly about this issue.
It's not a question I'd ask someone in form of a challenge to the points of their statements.

Hubbie's killed many people and I'd run screaming into the night before I ever bring any of that up! And that's someone I know very well, and have a relationship with. I find it's best to just never ask that question of strangers.

 

[Kreth]

That's a deeply personal question to ask someone, especially when it is pretty well known that they feel strongly about this issue.

It's a valid question, especially noting the rest of the post, "I have heard," "I see"
It'd be kind of like me advocating rolling up the window to trap a would-be carjackers arm and driving off and dragging him/her to death, while living in an area where carjacking is a rarity. But "I hear" it happens all the time...

 

[Si-Je]

It's a valid question, especially noting the rest of the post, "I have heard," "I see"
It'd be kind of like me advocating rolling up the window to trap a would-be carjackers arm and driving off and dragging him/her to death, while living in an area where carjacking is a rarity. But "I hear" it happens all the time...

I guess, but it's a little irrlevent to be so personal. The question is when would you deem it wise, needed, or "legal" to use excessive force. Not so much a head count of how many people have been killed. It's a good question to an ugly scenario, a "what if" scenario.

I'd just hate for folks to get upset, it's already such a touchy subject rife with very personal beliefs based on the character and morality of each person.
When there is killing, everyone dies one way or another.
Yes, the survivor dies, your not who you were before, and that is what is too personal to ask lightly., or heavy for that matter.
Just saying.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

So true...I totally agree with you GBlues...My Sifu often said fighting is not a game. When someone is fighting you they trying to hurt you bad. So you better hurt them first and put them out of commission so you can walk or run away.

When 1 guy attacks you it could be considered an old fashioned attempt at an *** woopin'. When it's more than 1 it's life threatening. My opinion. Doesn't take 2 guys to dole out a stomping, unless they want to do more than that. My grandfather used to tell me that, " When your fighting that S.O.B., is doing everything in his power to kill you, and you'd better be willing to do the same. Or you may wind up dead." My dad, he used to tell me the same thing, except for this, " When your fighting, you don't stop until he aint moving anymore, or he's begging you to stop or, somebody pulls you off, when one of those three things happens stop!" Excessive force, is one of those things that really is a matter of opinion. My grandfather considered every fist fight a matter of war. In reality that's what it is, war. A war between two people. All a war is, is a big fist fight between two or more countries, using men,women, and weapons. Simple that's all. All a fight is, is war between two or more people utilizing there bodies, or other weapons to inflict as much bodily harm on an individual, or individuals as they possibly can to either, conquer, or defend. Simple. When your life is in danger, there is nothing that is excessive. Being alive even if your in prison is better than being dead.

With that being said, I leave you with this quote, from Tim Larkin.
-" Violence is rarely the answer, but when it is it's the only answer"-

 

[morph4me]

It is never ok to use excessive force, although it is sometimes ok to use lethal force, the difference being in what is necessary for your survival. Excessive force means you did more than what you needed to do. If you do what you have to and stop it's not excessive, even if it's lethal. If you do what you have to and keep going, it's excessive

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Answer. I love your post!

It is never ok to use excessive force, although it is sometimes ok to use lethal force, the difference being in what is necessary for your survival. Excessive force means you did more than what you needed to do. If you do what you have to and stop it's not excessive, even if it's lethal. If you do what you have to and keep going, it's excessive

 

[GBlues]

I want to post this because it's good story. When I was in highschool 10 years ago. My buddies dad told us a story that happened about 5 years previously before I graduated so it would have been about 15 years or so ago. Relates to the shooting a guy in your house that was brought up in one of the earlier posts.

This guy went to the local bar I think he said somewhere's up north here in Arizona. So it would have been like flag, or pinetop or somewheres up in that area. Anyways this guy goes to his local bar, and gets into a tussel, with more than a few guys there. It's some number like 10 or 15 guys, and they just beat the snot out of him. Put him in the hospital. So he gets out of the hospital and he kills about three of them in his house. So the cops show up, and it's an open and shut case, 3 guys dead in this dudes house. Arizona it's legal to shoot someone trespassing in your house. A few weeks later they show up at the guys house again with a couple more guys dead. Come to find out he was going to the bar throwing rocks through there car windows and luring them back to his house, where they ran inside and got shot to death. This guy is still sitting in prison. That is excessive. Flat out murder. But the point being it's not always alright to just shoot the guy. Although if your going to, kill him, so he can't sue you.

ANother guy a thief broke into this guys house, and got shot in the leg. It did permanent damage. THe thief turned around and sued the guy for everything he owned because he can no longer practice his chosen trade in life, and get this.......HE WON! :erg: Now how messed up is that?????? Oh and I never heard of him doing any jail time either. ????????