When to Use Excessive Force

[Yoshiyahu]

Also lets not forget the battlefield of today. Lets say you go out of states an are attack by terrorist or your in Army and have to fight hand to hand combat. Those techniques may say your life. Or what if the day comes that China or Islam invaded America and their were Islamist blowing up homes around you,shooting people on sight and beating people down in streets with their fist. Would you hold back those techniques if your surrounded by some funadamentalist taliban who want to beat you to death with their bare hands because of what you represent. Remember you in the midst of invasion? What then morally speaking of course. Because at the point the law of land won't apply?

Um on the battle fields of old when you were engaging in hand to hand combat of kill or be killed.

As a Martial artist you should have the ability to use the correct amount of force needed to stop your attacker. You do not need excessive force to accomplish this. Your question in some way is asking when is it ok to kill someone? I suppose in an extreme situation such as a guy trying to kill you(thinking serial killer here) Then performing excessive force to ensure your surivial might seem probable.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

If Someone enters your home. Shoot him with the gun. That way there is no need for trial on self defense. Because he enter your home illegally. You were afraid for your life so you shoot him. He is a rapist of a little baby possibly your wife. So kill him.

It just opened my eyes. As for legal rights, I would have gone to jail or prison if I retaliated to the point of death that day. New England law is pretty rotten when it comes to self defense. And there were no witnesses to prove my case of self defense. (like the way such a situation almost always occurs) Probably why I get so irritated when people place limitation of law over thier own life.

There was a guy on the new a couple of weeks ago. He woke up in the night to strange noises coming from his daughters room (about 8-10 years old),
and found a naked man wearing boot, a ski mask, and latex gloves at the foot of his baby girl's bed.
He snapped his neck and killed him dead.
Now, he's in prison pending trial.
Is this excessive force? Apparently up state it is (illinois I think) but in Texas it would not be so.
Laws are well and good, but they are wrong sometimes too. Should he be taken away from the daughter he protected as a parent should possibly forever? Should she feel that what daddy did was wrong?

 

[MA-Caver]

If Someone enters your home. Shoot him with the gun. That way there is no need for trial on self defense. Because he enter your home illegally. You were afraid for your life so you shoot him. He is a rapist of a little baby possibly your wife. So kill him.

You cannot always do that and get away with the self-defense thing. Depending upon where you live. Maybe in Texas... where the police say if you shoot them and they go flying out the door then drag them back in and shoot 'em again... that way you can testify "Yes, I shot him in my house!" but in other states... you can end up going to prison... better double/triple check the laws where you live before adopting that mentality...

ALSO consider the ramifications of killing someone... even a scumbag. It's the taking of a human life, ironically speaking as one who is PRO death-penalty. It's regrettable but necessary sometimes.
It's not as easy as simply pulling the trigger.
For some folks it may be no big deal the first time around, for others... it takes getting used to (even if you did it once).
You will never know until you've done it. If you have (as a LEO or soldier) then you know but in a defense situation. :idunno: that's something else I think.

Oh, if we were invaded by the Chinese or (laughably) the Taliban... I think they'd have a helluva mess and a helluva time trying to stay occupied here. Folks would have a different mind-set about killing the invaders. If we think that the insurgents in Iraq or Afghanistan are bad... well like Humphrey Bogart said in Casablanca to the German Officer... "well there are certain parts of New York I wouldn't advise you to try and invade". Multiply that by every major city and then go out into the countryside ... Either way... it's still defense.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes unfortunately the law works funny that way. Both can be charged. She obviously didn't press charges on him. Something similiar happen to me. I had a cousin who was a drunk and on drugs. He lived in the house with me because he a legal right too. Because it was a family house and his dead mother once live there. So I couldn't legally put him out even though I was paying all the bills. He was acting up one day and threating me an my girl friend at the time. She was very afrain. I tried my best to advoid a fight with him. He attempted to kick me. I gan sau caught his kick and push him back. He tried to swing I just blocked an asked him to calm down or else I am going to call police. He went upstairs to his room. He started screaming and cursing in his room. My Girlfriend at the time got afraid and called the police. I did things to make him not want to fight. Like I held on to my nunchuks and let him know if he came in he would get a bop on the head. So he didn't engage me really. He would just kick on my door in my room. A curse and yell alot. The police knocked on the door. I open it. Like they had the house surrounded. They rushed in stormed the back and put me in handcuffs. I was trying to tell him that he was drunk an out of control. I asked repeately why am I in hand cuffs. They took me to jail that night. It was consider domestic dispute. Because were related. Anyway they labeled it as misdemanor assault. The took my picture and even finger printed me. Had I floored him or broke his arm in the beginning I would have never went to jail. But in the end I made my cousin go with me to police station to get the charges thrown out. I also have relatives in police department so that helps. But what should of happen was I should have hurt him. Instead of waiting on him to calm down. I told him many things to make him think about what he was doing. But it took a night in jail and $200 bond money the next day. So I had to spend $200 to get out jail the next morning. Which was going to be used to pay so needed bills. Ohwell those bills will have to be deliquent I suppose. So sometimes advoiding the fight won't help you. He should have got the beat down than the police wouldn't have arrested me. Because he would calm down an try to heal from his beating. But sometimes you try and do the right thing to co-exist.

Sometimes the only way is violence for some people.

Get this after I got out of jail why did they send me stuff talking about domestic abuse and being the victim. I mean there was no fight. There was him trying to throw a low round house kick an it getting caught by me. An his punches being pak down out the air. But no one was even hurt. They are so stupid sometimes.

The other incident was another girl I was dating had a brother who had abusive girlfriend. She would try to fight anyone in the hood. She even thought she could fight him. One day she started hitting him in the face continously. He liked grabbed her by the neck an started choking her. Eventually from lack of breath she stop hitting him. She was sorta of heavy set. Atleast she weighed more than him. He was backed in corner in room. While they were arguing. She got so angry that she decided to start punching his face in. He couldn't get away. He knew No martial arts. The only thing he could do was grab her neck and squeeze to make her stop punching his face constantly. She got more angry and called the police. He actually was smart for not punching her back. But the police still took him into custody. He spent the night in jail. He press charges on her too. They took her in to jail. She was trying to show the police marks on her neck where he choked her. But he let them know that she started punching him the face. He showed them his eye and lip. So they took her down too. She got out before he did the next morning I don't know why.

Laws are pretty funny.

But I got a cousin. Who was jumped by five guys I believe it may be more. Anyway he didn't fight with them or use his art. He just shot them all dead. An went to court an pleaded self defense and that was that. The guys were trying to rob him. So he shot them dead. So that way they could not testify against him because their dead. The Law is funny.

Its better to shoot an attacker and kill them then to fight them and put them in the hospital sometimes. Especially where I live.

That's okay MA-Caver, that's just what happens when your a mouthy punkrock girl that thought she was immortal. lol!
If I'd had ANY inkling that he was capable of anything crazy like that, I wouldn't have been hanging out with him at all. Sometimes you just never know until it's too late. We'd all like to be wise and all knowing about people's character and intentions, but you still just never really know.
And my dislike for less practical (in my eyes and perspective now) is just personal preference due to experience. Not ment as a total slam of any other art other than WC/WT. I come off that way alot, and really don't mean to. I just feel strongly about self-defense and only want to learn what will end a confrontation immediately and it makes me pretty narrow-minded in a way, on the subject.



Here's another good one. I knew a gal once that dated a guy and they broke up (which is what normally happens) He decided he didn't want that and came to her house, and kicked in her front door charging in. She beat him back out of the apartment. And even with Texas law protecting her "rights" to defend herself, they deemed it dometic violence and took HER to jail.
They we NOT married, or living together and he had no legal right to come in. But, since they had dated she fell into a whole 'nuttha set of laws that are COMPLETELY lacking in every state.
So, she got to go to jail, lose a job and apartment, get a criminal record (making it harder to work and get another apartment) and go to court taking anger management classes for 16 weeks!
He was still in her life too after that, harassing her, and threatening her violently and now, legally. He moved closer to her after she moved away. HE had a protection order on HER, and would happily break it to get her in more trouble.
I've got a 100 of those stories, from 100 different women.

But, that's a bit off topic. Kinda. But kinda not. Again, what is excessive? Having an incompasitated person and delivering a kill stroke? Maybe excessive, unless you know they will never stop coming back to get you or your family and will finally, eventually do you in. It's all really speculation at this point at best. But, an issue that needs to be addressed by everyone at one time or another, espectially one studing an any art.

 

[Si-Je]

It's *******s like that that make me stand by my statement in another thread that I'm embarrassed by my own sex sometimes.

Oh, I didn't mean to bum ya'll out. You can't be responsible for others. I'm embarrassed by my own sex too sometimes! lol!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

If I am afraid someone is going to hurt me and they enter my home. I have no problem with ending theirs. I think like this. If they are enemy and live they may come back to kill me. I have heard stories of too many people who have fought people and beat them so badly that when their attackers healed they came back with semi automatics to kill them. The best thing to do is kill a scumbag. If not he will retalitate with gun fire. If he can't beat you with the hands then here he comes with gun. I hear and see it too many times. Even my Sihing can testify to this. Thats why he always keeps a gun on him everywhere he goes. lol...He is very skilled in Wing Chun and has defeated some top fighters in other arts.
But if you beat up somepeople who are trying to rob you. They will be embarssed and out of pride they will try to sneak up on you an shoot you in the back. Better not leave surviviors because they become avengers. I always think in the back of head. If I beat him he may possibly want revenge. So someone coming into my house to do me harm will never live. Because they know where I stay. They have my address. Now on the street with someone I may never see again thats a different story. But you coming to my house. You may do 18 months if I am lucky than your out looking for home of residence to get your revenge only this time your not going to be so foolish. Your going to make sure you keep your gun far from me instead of pulling it out when your chi sau distance. So I rather get my 44 and end their life instead of looking over my shoulders every day.

You cannot always do that and get away with the self-defense thing. Depending upon where you live. Maybe in Texas... where the police say if you shoot them and they go flying out the door then drag them back in and shoot 'em again... that way you can testify "Yes, I shot him in my house!" but in other states... you can end up going to prison... better double/triple check the laws where you live before adopting that mentality...

ALSO consider the ramifications of killing someone... even a scumbag. It's the taking of a human life, ironically speaking as one who is PRO death-penalty. It's regrettable but necessary sometimes.
It's not as easy as simply pulling the trigger.
For some folks it may be no big deal the first time around, for others... it takes getting used to (even if you did it once).
You will never know until you've done it. If you have (as a LEO or soldier) then you know but in a defense situation. :idunno: that's something else I think.

Oh, if we were invaded by the Chinese or (laughably) the Taliban... I think they'd have a helluva mess and a helluva time trying to stay occupied here. Folks would have a different mind-set about killing the invaders. If we think that the insurgents in Iraq or Afghanistan are bad... well like Humphrey Bogart said in Casablanca to the German Officer... "well there are certain parts of New York I wouldn't advise you to try and invade". Multiply that by every major city and then go out into the countryside ... Either way... it's still defense.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Also lets not forget the battlefield of today. Lets say you go out of states an are attack by terrorist or your in Army and have to fight hand to hand combat. Those techniques may say your life. Or what if the day comes that China or Islam invaded America and their were Islamist blowing up homes around you,shooting people on sight and beating people down in streets with their fist. Would you hold back those techniques if your surrounded by some funadamentalist taliban who want to beat you to death with their bare hands because of what you represent. Remember you in the midst of invasion? What then morally speaking of course. Because at the point the law of land won't apply?

As I said before:

I suppose in an extreme situation such as a guy trying to kill you(thinking serial killer here) Then performing excessive force to ensure your surivial might seem probable.

In Warfare at least in modern times you are fighting with guns and weapons not really so much open handed. But comparing warfare and the average fight on the street is like comparing Apple to Oranges.

Again when you are speaking of excessive force you are talking in terms of killing someone. So again your question comes off as when is it ok to kill someone.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

There are women out there who abuse men too. I have met some. I asked them why do they hit men. They say because they don't fight them back. So that means that man is a weak man. If he doesn't do what she says she is going to hit him the head with the frying pan, Burn him with hot iron, pour boiling water on him etc. My Wing Chun Sidai's mother was that way. In fact with her new husband he is handicap. One his legs is wooden. She kicked him down the steps one day. So women are sometimes abusive too. It sad but true.

Oh, I didn't mean to bum ya'll out. You can't be responsible for others. I'm embarrassed by my own sex too sometimes! lol!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

As I said before:



In Warfare at least in modern times you are fighting with guns and weapons not really so much open handed. But comparing warfare and the average fight on the street is like comparing Apple to Oranges.

Again when you are speaking of excessive force you are talking in terms of killing someone. So again your question comes off as when is it ok to kill someone.

Actually there are times in Warfare today where you have close combat sitituations thats why they teach BJJ to I believe the Marines.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Not just killing but also

Choking someone out
Knocking them out
Breaking limbs
Breaking ribs and bones
Causing paralysis
etc

As I said before:



In Warfare at least in modern times you are fighting with guns and weapons not really so much open handed. But comparing warfare and the average fight on the street is like comparing Apple to Oranges.

Again when you are speaking of excessive force you are talking in terms of killing someone. So again your question comes off as when is it ok to kill someone.

 

[Si-Je]

Also lets not forget the battlefield of today. Lets say you go out of states an are attack by terrorist or your in Army and have to fight hand to hand combat. Those techniques may say your life. Or what if the day comes that China or Islam invaded America and their were Islamist blowing up homes around you,shooting people on sight and beating people down in streets with their fist. Would you hold back those techniques if your surrounded by some funadamentalist taliban who want to beat you to death with their bare hands because of what you represent. Remember you in the midst of invasion? What then morally speaking of course. Because at the point the law of land won't apply?

That's a whole different can of worms there. War is war. Different rules, if any.

And no. I'll have no hesitation there. I don't represent anything but myself. And if someone doesn't see that and wants to kill me for stupid reasons, then I don't have a problem dealing with that. (like they don't like Texans because of one notorious Texan and, thinks we all suck like that)
But that's a scenario that would be a whole new kind of hell for all involved.

 

[Si-Je]

Actually there are times in Warfare today where you have close combat sitituations thats why they teach BJJ to I believe the Marines.

Hubbie would get mad with that statement. lol!
But they do end up in hand to hand situations alot more than people know.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I don't think all texans are bad because of your notorious Texan. Let me guess your speaking George Bush right?

That's a whole different can of worms there. War is war. Different rules, if any.

And no. I'll have no hesitation there. I don't represent anything but myself. And if someone doesn't see that and wants to kill me for stupid reasons, then I don't have a problem dealing with that. (like they don't like Texans because of one notorious Texan and, thinks we all suck like that)
But that's a scenario that would be a whole new kind of hell for all involved.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

[QUOTEex⋅ces⋅sive   /ɪkˈsɛs

ɪv/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ik-ses-iv] Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective going beyond the usual, necessary, or proper limit or degree;] [/QUOTE]

In criminal law, the unjustified use of force, determined by the circumstances.

Not just killing but also

Choking someone out
Knocking them out
Breaking limbs
Breaking ribs and bones
Causing paralysis
etc

Depending on the situation it may be excessive or it maybe justified force.
I can not make a blanket statement and say it is or not.
However usuage of paralysis or death would in most situations be considered usuage of excessive force.

Actually there are times in Warfare today where you have close combat sitituations thats why they teach BJJ to I believe the Marines.

Ya the idea is to strike your opponent or keep him in your guard long enough until you reach your 45. to shoot him.

 

[Si-Je]

There are women out there who abuse men too. I have met some. I asked them why do they hit men. They say because they don't fight them back. So that means that man is a weak man. If he doesn't do what she says she is going to hit him the head with the frying pan, Burn him with hot iron, pour boiling water on him etc. My Wing Chun Sidai's mother was that way. In fact with her new husband he is handicap. One his legs is wooden. She kicked him down the steps one day. So women are sometimes abusive too. It sad but true.

I know. horrible. But, good statement that abuse has no gender bias, race, financial stature, or social standing.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea thats for home intruders. Because it doesn't take any skill to shoot a gun besides if your hitting a target from a far distance. But if he is up on me. Than selfdefense would be to shoot the intruder with the slugs. Why use the Art on an intruder. No need if you have gun. The Art for when I do not have the ability to shoot.


Ya the idea is to strike your opponent or keep him in your guard long enough until you reach your 45. to shoot him.[/quote]

 

[Si-Je]

Si-Je your private message box is filled. You have to delete your old messages you have already read. You can not receive any more messages!

fixed it. thanks.

 

[Si-Je]

Okay, no. Marines don't use BJJ in combat. It does not help you to get to your .45 while you have a dude between your legs with a 100 lb. pack on your back so you can't get up quickly like a turtle exposed in the sun.

Hubbie would die, glad he's at work.
He doen't chat on here much, and he'd make me do all the typing. so, shhhhh! lol!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I dont remember which ones are training the BJJ is it the marines,army or what? I know the armed forces have introduce some ground fighting now for their officers?

Okay, no. Marines don't use BJJ in combat. It does not help you to get to your .45 while you have a dude between your legs with a 100 lb. pack on your back so you can't get up quickly like a turtle exposed in the sun.

Hubbie would die, glad he's at work.
He doen't chat on here much, and he'd make me do all the typing. so, shhhhh! lol!

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program

Looks like BJJ to me..

If someone tries to take you to the ground then yes you might pull guard so he does not get on top of you and try to stab you.

In guard you might have a chance to reach for your gun end the conflict instead of sitting there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-U1eGcXXc0&feature=related

Look his hand is free to shoot him!