When to Use Excessive Force

[Yoshiyahu]

I was woundering. When is a time to use Excessive force?

Many people always say don't use your Wing Chun on people because of going to jail?

What about self defence scenarios?

When is it okay to use your art. When is okay to use all your techniques on attacker?

please share whats your opinion?

~When someone is being Jumped?

~When someone is being mugged?

~When someone is being raped?

~When you are being jumped?

~When you are being raped?

~When someone has a knife or gun?

~To protect your family?

When is it time to break knees,use chin na, break necks, stab pressure points?

 

[myusername]

A pedantic answer to this question would be....never. "Excessive Force" implies that the force used was excessive, too much and not proportionate to the level of risk.

However, I think I get what you are asking here and that is what is proportionate? My view on it depends entirely on the level of threat that I feel and whether I can escape or not. My reponse to being attacked by a stroppy toddler will be different to my response to being attcked by a 6ft man weilding a baseball bat. If I feel my life or somebody else life is in danger and I am unable to leave that life threatening situation then I will do what ever is necessary to protect myself or that person which will include attacking the attacker's airway, blood supply and consciousness using what ever techniques present themselves.

I will also try and remain aware that the level of risk can change during a confrontation. If somebody is trying to do serious damage to me and I deliver a knockout punch then the level of risk has reduced, so to then start jumping up and down on the unconscious attackers head will move my actions from proportionate to excessive pretty quickly. To remain at the proportionate end of this spectrum I personally believe that you must always be looking for the escape and as long as you flee the moment you get the chance you are pretty much covered.

 

[GBlues]

Yup, that's the way I feel about it pretty much too. If you feel like your life, or the life of a loved one is in danger, then in my mind it's open season on ducks and somebody is either going to the hospital or to the morgue, one of the two. You can't just go around demolitioning and killing people you know.

 

[Tez3]

A pedantic answer to this question would be....never. "Excessive Force" implies that the force used was excessive, too much and not proportionate to the level of risk.

However, I think I get what you are asking here and that is what is proportionate? My view on it depends entirely on the level of threat that I feel and whether I can escape or not. My reponse to being attacked by a stroppy toddler will be different to my response to being attcked by a 6ft man weilding a baseball bat. If I feel my life or somebody else life is in danger and I am unable to leave that life threatening situation then I will do what ever is necessary to protect myself or that person which will include attacking the attacker's airway, blood supply and consciousness using what ever techniques present themselves.

I will also try and remain aware that the level of risk can change during a confrontation. If somebody is trying to do serious damage to me and I deliver a knockout punch then the level of risk has reduced, so to then start jumping up and down on the unconscious attackers head will move my actions from proportionate to excessive pretty quickly. To remain at the proportionate end of this spectrum I personally believe that you must always be looking for the escape and as long as you flee the moment you get the chance you are pretty much covered.

Couldn't have put it better myself!! the law in our country allows for defending yourself however you have to but as you said jumping up and down on an unconcious persons head is not defending yourself!

 

[Si-Je]

Use of "Excessive Force" it seems would be regulated by perspective. In the grip of fear, in the moment of danger and the unknown intentions of an attacker what would be the definition of Excessive force?
Some people are passifistic, some are more logical about these situations, some are more emotional, everyone has their own terms and boundaries for their own moral code of conduct and philosophy.

This is a term and a matter for buerocrats, lawyers, and court.

This is also a term and a matter for re-evaluation of your philosophies, beliefs, and boundaries.

Every scenario is different. What I would deem as excessive would be totally different that someone elses views of force.

In a conflict there isn't alot of time allotted to you to decide on the spot what your going to do or not do to surivive an encounter, or even if your life is truely in danger.
Think long and hard now before it happens, meditate on it. Because when your attacked you will respond on an animalistic level. Whether you totally freeze up in fear, doubt, or confusion. Or you lash out with everything you've got.
Do I want to kill someone? Personally no, never. But, that may be a choice that's not fully mine to make at the time of attack. It may be the only way to live, but that's the point of learning to defend yourself (for me) is to Hopefully, give me other options.

If I can take them out of physical commission, then I don't HAVE to kill.
If I can deflect and talk my way out of the fight, then I don't have to crush a person.
If I can run off fast enough to get away, then all the better!

Simply put, do what you have to do. Live, to debate the issue later.
Law is law, and all well and good. But...
I'm not going to starve because the law says I should.
I'm not going to lose my family or home because the law says I don't need it.
And I'm not going to die because the law thinks I don't have the right to live.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Great Answer.

This is a great discussion. Let me turn the conversating to what I mean by excessive force?

I mean when it is okay to use Iron Fingers techniques to pierce flesh, or Iron palm to rupture someones spleen or kidneys, When it is okay to use Phoenix Fist to attack vital pressure points, When is it okay to strike someone in the adams apple with crushing crane beak?

When are Neck Breaks and Iron palm to chest okay to use?

When are more of deadly techniques of Bil Gee deem acceptable to use in Combat?

Use of "Excessive Force" it seems would be regulated by perspective. In the grip of fear, in the moment of danger and the unknown intentions of an attacker what would be the definition of Excessive force?
Some people are passifistic, some are more logical about these situations, some are more emotional, everyone has their own terms and boundaries for their own moral code of conduct and philosophy.

This is a term and a matter for buerocrats, lawyers, and court.

This is also a term and a matter for re-evaluation of your philosophies, beliefs, and boundaries.

Every scenario is different. What I would deem as excessive would be totally different that someone elses views of force.

In a conflict there isn't alot of time allotted to you to decide on the spot what your going to do or not do to surivive an encounter, or even if your life is truely in danger.
Think long and hard now before it happens, meditate on it. Because when your attacked you will respond on an animalistic level. Whether you totally freeze up in fear, doubt, or confusion. Or you lash out with everything you've got.
Do I want to kill someone? Personally no, never. But, that may be a choice that's not fully mine to make at the time of attack. It may be the only way to live, but that's the point of learning to defend yourself (for me) is to Hopefully, give me other options.

If I can take them out of physical commission, then I don't HAVE to kill.
If I can deflect and talk my way out of the fight, then I don't have to crush a person.
If I can run off fast enough to get away, then all the better!

Simply put, do what you have to do. Live, to debate the issue later.
Law is law, and all well and good. But...
I'm not going to starve because the law says I should.
I'm not going to lose my family or home because the law says I don't need it.
And I'm not going to die because the law thinks I don't have the right to live.

 

[Si-Je]

Oh, well.... That's way past my ability and knowledge of technique. So for me to make a judgement on when to use such technique would be from ignorance and probably misguided.

So, here goes. Basically, when would pre-meditated intention to kill be acceptable or right? I feel that would be best left to the martial artist that has that skill and wisdom to be able to perform such radical technique.
Generically, the use of such force may be justified when it's a situation of your death or thier death.
But, at a higher level of skill in the arts, that situation would and should be more rare and improbable in coming to actuallity.

Maybe if they have a gun on you or a loved one and you know for a FACT that they will kill you or them, or if maybe there is more than one person with weapons or guns. But, seriously, any situation I could dream up would be nothing like a true situation that called for this kind of action. (I'm just a little to naive to the evil's that people are really cabable of and have a hard time imagining when exactly to use that kind of force. I'll use what I've got, and if they die, then that's what happens when fighting for my life, but I don't have that power to make that kind of choice.)

And if I had to make that choice, I don't think I could do it. I'm just not built that way. And it's a little scary to think that I might have it in me to possibility do that to someone. Deep question. Scary question.

 

[MA-Caver]

As MyUserName said... use of excessive force is taking it to the point of death, by a hair's width.
Your WC should help you to effectively neutralize your threat whatever it may be to the point of escape -- of which there is NO SHAME! -- for you or for the one you are defending/assisting.
If holding the guy is enough until he calms down and starts acting in a more rational manner (they can still be mad and whatever but they're not trying to hurt you) then that's enough. That is one extreme, the other is if you have to break their leg/arm/whatever so that they're incapacitated and get make moves to hurt you anymore then STOP. Even if it's a group of attackers, only do enough damage to stop all of them ... sometimes even hurting ONE of them is enough to stop (pack mentality).

It's been said here before. A Martial Artist assumes a lot of responsibility for the skills that they learn. They are responsible for the amount of control, judgment and discipline when using it, both in and out of the school.

Don't embarrass your peers by going over the top. Do what you can and what is necessary and LEARN what is necessary to stop an attacker.

 

[Si-Je]

I think he's asking when would it be necessary to go that far with such techniques. It's a quesiton of extreme "exception to the regular rules of engagement".
I've been attacked and looked right in the eyes of pure EVIL, and everything I tried to subdue him didn't work. It enraged him more. Seemed to feed off it.
This situation didn't end well for me, but I "survived". (I still don't know how or why)

But, if in that situation again knowing how to do something like those deadly strikes on him described. I may not like my own answer to whether or not I would have used such techniques on that man being put in the same situation twice.
With that experience and knowledge, I wouldn't want to test the fates with my life again just to prove to myself (or others) that I'm a "better person" for not applying lethal force when everything else isn't working.

It comes down to a personal choice for everyone. You can't judge someone else for choosing differently than what you "think" you might choose to do or not to do. You can only disagree.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I mean when it is okay to use Iron Fingers techniques to pierce flesh, or Iron palm to rupture someones spleen or kidneys, When it is okay to use Phoenix Fist to attack vital pressure points, When is it okay to strike someone in the adams apple with crushing crane beak?

When are Neck Breaks and Iron palm to chest okay to use?

When are more of deadly techniques of Bil Gee deem acceptable to use in Combat?

Um on the battle fields of old when you were engaging in hand to hand combat of kill or be killed.

As a Martial artist you should have the ability to use the correct amount of force needed to stop your attacker. You do not need excessive force to accomplish this. Your question in some way is asking when is it ok to kill someone? I suppose in an extreme situation such as a guy trying to kill you(thinking serial killer here) Then performing excessive force to ensure your surivial might seem probable.

 

[MA-Caver]

I think he's asking when would it be necessary to go that far with such techniques. It's a quesiton of extreme "exception to the regular rules of engagement".
I've been attacked and looked right in the eyes of pure EVIL, and everything I tried to subdue him didn't work. It enraged him more. Seemed to feed off it.
This situation didn't end well for me, but I "survived". (I still don't know how or why)

But, if in that situation again knowing how to do something like those deadly strikes on him described. I may not like my own answer to whether or not I would have used such techniques on that man being put in the same situation twice.
With that experience and knowledge, I wouldn't want to test the fates with my life again just to prove to myself (or others) that I'm a "better person" for not applying lethal force when everything else isn't working.

It comes down to a personal choice for everyone. You can't judge someone else for choosing differently than what you "think" you might choose to do or not to do. You can only disagree.

A person rendered unconscious doesn't have to die. If you can get your attacker at that point then there is no need to go on is there? But if you cannot... and if your life (or someone else's) is in immediate danger of ending at that person's hands then yeah of course you take it to expressiveness because THEY are taking it to the excessive. I think anyone with a sense of self preservation is going to know they have no alternative if pushed against the wall like that.

But honestly ask yourself... do you really know what looking into the eyes of pure evil is really like? Forget the Charlie Manson or Richard Rameriez photos... I mean face to face. I've seen it once and was glad that their attention wasn't focused on me.

 

[myusername]

I think he's asking when would it be necessary to go that far with such techniques. It's a quesiton of extreme "exception to the regular rules of engagement".

In that case then the answer still remains the same. Only when your life or someone elses is threatened.

I've been attacked and looked right in the eyes of pure EVIL, and everything I tried to subdue him didn't work. It enraged him more. Seemed to feed off it.
This situation didn't end well for me, but I "survived". (I still don't know how or why)

But, if in that situation again knowing how to do something like those deadly strikes on him described. I may not like my own answer to whether or not I would have used such techniques on that man being put in the same situation twice.
With that experience and knowledge, I wouldn't want to test the fates with my life again just to prove to myself (or others) that I'm a "better person" for not applying lethal force when everything else isn't working.

It comes down to a personal choice for everyone. You can't judge someone else for choosing differently than what you "think" you might choose to do or not to do. You can only disagree.

I'm terribly sorry to read that this happened to you, it is very brave of you to share that information and you must be a strong person to come through an attack like that. In this type of situation I would personally suggest that you would be perfectly within your legal rights to use lethal force to defend yourself as at the time it sounds that you did not know that you would survive. You are completely right when you say that until such a time comes you do not know how you will react no matter how well you prepare yourself so no one should judge.

 

[myusername]

Um on the battle fields of old when you were engaging in hand to hand combat of kill or be killed.

As a Martial artist you should have the ability to use the correct amount of force needed to stop your attacker. You do not need excessive force to accomplish this. Your question in some way is asking when is it ok to kill someone? I suppose in an extreme situation such as a guy trying to kill you(thinking serial killer here) Then performing excessive force to ensure your surivial might seem probable.

But I would then add that it stops being excessive force at that point and becomes proportionate force to the level of threat. Excessive is just that, excessive, if it is kill or be killed then killing the attacker would be reasonable force and not excessive.

 

[Si-Je]

A person rendered unconscious doesn't have to die. If you can get your attacker at that point then there is no need to go on is there? But if you cannot... I think anyone with a sense of self preservation is going to know they have no alternative if pushed against the wall like that. .

I totally agree, IF you can "render them unconscious". This is a last resort issue.

But honestly ask yourself... do you really know what looking into the eyes of pure evil is really like?..... was glad that their attention wasn't focused on me.

Yes, I do. And it was directed AT me. Does that make me wiser to how far and exactly the limits of someone taken over by "pure evil" is totally capable of? No. But, it made clear to me when you have reached the point of no return.

This topic has made me seriously re-think my ideals of self-defense and what I am truely willing to do. Took me a while to really think about it and remeber things I don't like to think about, ever.
But, it has brought to light alot of my reasoning and attitudes about defense and when to attack.
I used to be of the very same mindset as most here. Thinking that killing is NEVER okay. Or to use excessive force. And it isn't. But, it's never acceptable to be killed either! Especially due to limitations placed on oneself based on pre-concieved and limited moral codes of conduct, idealism in being a "good person" or "martial artist", etc.
I once thought I had the training to defeat anyone that might try to hurt me much less kill me because of all my years of training in martial arts. That I could handle anything, from any attacker. Until I was disillusioned in a most brutal fashion from a person that wanted to end my life. And in a way did. I lost all faith in martial arts, until I trained Wing Chun.
See, my perspective on attack and defense completely changed FOREVER. They are the cause and result of the other on a cosmic level!
I wasn't impressed by cool looking or even fun technqies anymore and wouldn't waste time on them, I hated techniques like that for years because of the false sence of security they give people. (much like I had before)
I still don't want to hurt people, but that will never happen to me again. And it taught me more of what I'm going to have to learn to keep that from ever happening again. And it's an ugly thing sometimes.
Hopefully, everything nicer and safer will work and I won't have to resort to that kind of thing. But, that's just hope. I don't want to live on hope alone.

 

[stickarts]

I think of excessive force only in all out warfare. In self defense, i think in terms of using only enough force to get out of the situation. Each person must draw their own ethical lines.

 

[Si-Je]

I'm terribly sorry to read that this happened to you, it is very brave of you to share that information and you must be a strong person to come through an attack like that. In this type of situation I would personally suggest that you would be perfectly within your legal rights to use lethal force to defend yourself as at the time it sounds that you did not know that you would survive. You are completely right when you say that until such a time comes you do not know how you will react no matter how well you prepare yourself so no one should judge.

It just opened my eyes. As for legal rights, I would have gone to jail or prison if I retaliated to the point of death that day. New England law is pretty rotten when it comes to self defense. And there were no witnesses to prove my case of self defense. (like the way such a situation almost always occurs) Probably why I get so irritated when people place limitation of law over thier own life.

There was a guy on the new a couple of weeks ago. He woke up in the night to strange noises coming from his daughters room (about 8-10 years old),
and found a naked man wearing boot, a ski mask, and latex gloves at the foot of his baby girl's bed.
He snapped his neck and killed him dead.
Now, he's in prison pending trial.
Is this excessive force? Apparently up state it is (illinois I think) but in Texas it would not be so.
Laws are well and good, but they are wrong sometimes too. Should he be taken away from the daughter he protected as a parent should possibly forever? Should she feel that what daddy did was wrong?

 

[MA-Caver]

I totally agree, IF you can "render them unconscious". This is a last resort issue.

Exactly. However it is not always practical. The unconscious person may revive and carry on their "evil" to someone else... but that is an unknown. They may revive and be glad that they're alive and that they realize the errors of their ways and do a 180 ... but unfortunately that is unrealistic. Yet it's a judgment call.
When I was attacked on the streets in Washington D.C. I managed to incapacitate my attacker (smashing their windpipe) to where I could get away... ran a few blocks and found a security guard. Told them to call the police because someone is "hurt" down that way a few blocks... and went on my way.
I hope that the police got to them and got them the help they needed and whatever fate they deserved.

Originally Posted by MA-Caver
But honestly ask yourself... do you really know what looking into the eyes of pure evil is really like?..... was glad that their attention wasn't focused on me.

Yes, I do. And it was directed AT me. Does that make me wiser to how far and exactly the limits of someone taken over by "pure evil" is totally capable of? No. But, it made clear to me when you have reached the point of no return.

It is out there. And I'm sorry you're also one of the people to have experienced that. It's not very pleasant.

This topic has made me seriously re-think my ideals of self-defense and what I am truely willing to do. Took me a while to really think about it and remeber things I don't like to think about, ever.
But, it has brought to light alot of my reasoning and attitudes about defense and when to attack.
I used to be of the very same mindset as most here. Thinking that killing is NEVER okay. Or to use excessive force. And it isn't. But, it's never acceptable to be killed either! Especially due to limitations placed on oneself based on pre-conceived and limited moral codes of conduct, idealism in being a "good person" or "martial artist", etc.
I once thought I had the training to defeat anyone that might try to hurt me much less kill me because of all my years of training in martial arts. That I could handle anything, from any attacker. Until I was disillusioned in a most brutal fashion from a person that wanted to end my life. And in a way did. I lost all faith in martial arts, until I trained Wing Chun.
See, my perspective on attack and defense completely changed FOREVER. They are the cause and result of the other on a cosmic level!
I wasn't impressed by cool looking or even fun techniques anymore and wouldn't waste time on them, I hated techniques like that for years because of the false sense of security they give people. (much like I had before)
I still don't want to hurt people, but that will never happen to me again. And it taught me more of what I'm going to have to learn to keep that from ever happening again. And it's an ugly thing sometimes.
Hopefully, everything nicer and safer will work and I won't have to resort to that kind of thing. But, that's just hope. I don't want to live on hope alone.

Killing and hurting people is NEVER okay. But it's necessary sometimes. That is where a Martial Artist's judgment comes in. To know that this is going to be enough to stop this person from hurting me and anyone else for the moment.
Some techniques are cool looking and fun... but they are (IMO) primarily designed to inflict damage upon someone, if done correctly. I don't want to start saying this is wrong/bad or that is or is not a good tech. All of them would have to be if they're in whatever art that they're in... right? A GM or founder of an art wouldn't just make up something just for the hell of it if it didn't have any practical application of real defense?
A jumping roundhouse TKD kick isn't going to work if an attacker has you cornered in a small bathroom stall or phone booth right? But it might do well in an open air parking lot while you were walking to your car... provided you timed and performed the tech correctly.

I too promised myself that I will NEVER allow anyone to hurt me again... but I learned that sometimes it can happen again whether you want it to or not. Sucker-punches really do suck... and they do happen. You simply cannot be 100% aware 100% of the time because you'll never get no sleep, you'll strain the relations with your loved ones and friends... and so on.
You can however learn from experience and know when it's necessary to raise your level of awareness that is appropriate to where you are and who you're with. A heightened sense of awareness of your surroundings can help minimize the chances of you actually using your MA... because you can get away from the area before trouble starts... or your sense of awareness will be picked by potential attackers (muggers/robbers/whatever) and they'll usually go off to find easier prey.

No, it is never okay to hurt or kill anyone, but it is necessary sometimes. Just how much is still up to you.
:asian:
(edit)

There was a guy on the new a couple of weeks ago. He woke up in the night to strange noises coming from his daughters room (about 8-10 years old),
and found a naked man wearing boot, a ski mask, and latex gloves at the foot of his baby girl's bed.
He snapped his neck and killed him dead.
Now, he's in prison pending trial.
Is this excessive force? Apparently up state it is (illinois I think) but in Texas it would not be so.
Laws are well and good, but they are wrong sometimes too. Should he be taken away from the daughter he protected as a parent should possibly forever? Should she feel that what daddy did was wrong?

A friend of mine argued that fact with me (he's a pacifist) that it would be selfish to your children to kill someone for something they were doing or about to do to your children... even in your OWN home.
The laws DO suck in that regard depending upon where one lives.
It is hoped that a jury will see beyond the law and see where the danger lies and see the potential of that happening to THEM that they will acquit the father for doing the right thing.

 

[myusername]

It just opened my eyes. As for legal rights, I would have gone to jail or prison if I retaliated to the point of death that day. New England law is pretty rotten when it comes to self defense. And there were no witnesses to prove my case of self defense. (like the way such a situation almost always occurs) Probably why I get so irritated when people place limitation of law over thier own life.

There was a guy on the new a couple of weeks ago. He woke up in the night to strange noises coming from his daughters room (about 8-10 years old),
and found a naked man wearing boot, a ski mask, and latex gloves at the foot of his baby girl's bed.
He snapped his neck and killed him dead.
Now, he's in prison pending trial.
Is this excessive force? Apparently up state it is (illinois I think) but in Texas it would not be so.
Laws are well and good, but they are wrong sometimes too. Should he be taken away from the daughter he protected as a parent should possibly forever? Should she feel that what daddy did was wrong?

Wow! Just wow! That is dreadful. I have been participating in this thread from an Englishman's perspective. Assuming that America would have very similar laws that cover self defence to the UK. That story is just wrong.

 

[Si-Je]

That's okay MA-Caver, that's just what happens when your a mouthy punkrock girl that thought she was immortal. lol!
If I'd had ANY inkling that he was capable of anything crazy like that, I wouldn't have been hanging out with him at all. Sometimes you just never know until it's too late. We'd all like to be wise and all knowing about people's character and intentions, but you still just never really know.
And my dislike for less practical (in my eyes and perspective now) is just personal preference due to experience. Not ment as a total slam of any other art other than WC/WT. I come off that way alot, and really don't mean to. I just feel strongly about self-defense and only want to learn what will end a confrontation immediately and it makes me pretty narrow-minded in a way, on the subject.

Wow! Just wow! That is dreadful. I have been participating in this thread from an Englishman's perspective. Assuming that America would have very similar laws that cover self defence to the UK. That story is just wrong.

Here's another good one. I knew a gal once that dated a guy and they broke up (which is what normally happens) He decided he didn't want that and came to her house, and kicked in her front door charging in. She beat him back out of the apartment. And even with Texas law protecting her "rights" to defend herself, they deemed it dometic violence and took HER to jail.
They we NOT married, or living together and he had no legal right to come in. But, since they had dated she fell into a whole 'nuttha set of laws that are COMPLETELY lacking in every state.
So, she got to go to jail, lose a job and apartment, get a criminal record (making it harder to work and get another apartment) and go to court taking anger management classes for 16 weeks!
He was still in her life too after that, harassing her, and threatening her violently and now, legally. He moved closer to her after she moved away. HE had a protection order on HER, and would happily break it to get her in more trouble.
I've got a 100 of those stories, from 100 different women.

But, that's a bit off topic. Kinda. But kinda not. Again, what is excessive? Having an incompasitated person and delivering a kill stroke? Maybe excessive, unless you know they will never stop coming back to get you or your family and will finally, eventually do you in. It's all really speculation at this point at best. But, an issue that needs to be addressed by everyone at one time or another, espectially one studing an any art.

 

[MA-Caver]

That's okay MA-Caver, that's just what happens when your a mouthy punkrock girl that thought she was immortal. lol!
If I'd had ANY inkling that he was capable of anything crazy like that, I wouldn't have been hanging out with him at all. Sometimes you just never know until it's too late. We'd all like to be wise and all knowing about people's character and intentions, but you still just never really know.
And my dislike for less practical (in my eyes and perspective now) is just personal preference due to experience. Not ment as a total slam of any other art other than WC/WT. I come off that way alot, and really don't mean to. I just feel strongly about self-defense and only want to learn what will end a confrontation immediately and it makes me pretty narrow-minded in a way, on the subject.



Here's another good one. I knew a gal once that dated a guy and they broke up (which is what normally happens) He decided he didn't want that and came to her house, and kicked in her front door charging in. She beat him back out of the apartment. And even with Texas law protecting her "rights" to defend herself, they deemed it dometic violence and took HER to jail.
They we NOT married, or living together and he had no legal right to come in. But, since they had dated she fell into a whole 'nuttha set of laws that are COMPLETELY lacking in every state.
So, she got to go to jail, lose a job and apartment, get a criminal record (making it harder to work and get another apartment) and go to court taking anger management classes for 16 weeks!
He was still in her life too after that, harassing her, and threatening her violently and now, legally. He moved closer to her after she moved away. HE had a protection order on HER, and would happily break it to get her in more trouble.
I've got a 100 of those stories, from 100 different women.

But, that's a bit off topic. Kinda. But kinda not. Again, what is excessive? Having an incompasitated person and delivering a kill stroke? Maybe excessive, unless you know they will never stop coming back to get you or your family and will finally, eventually do you in. It's all really speculation at this point at best. But, an issue that needs to be addressed by everyone at one time or another, espectially one studing an any art.

It's *******s like that that make me stand by my statement in another thread that I'm embarrassed by my own sex sometimes.