When the Opponent Covers Up.

[mook jong man]

What tactics does your Wing Tsun / Wing Tsun lineage employ when attacking this type of guard or cover as commonly seen in boxing.

In our lineage one of our main ways to attack this guard is to take advantage of the weak angle of the arms and to step in with a double palm strike on the back of both his wrists and send his own hands crashing back into his head.

Another one commonly used is to rip the structure away with a latch off a Bong Sau whilst pivoting and Hook Punching with the other hand , or alternatively at closer range instead of ripping the guard down and Hook Punching we use an elbow strike instead.

What methods does your various Wing Chun / Wing Tsun clans use?

 

[Nabakatsu]

I haven't discussed when people cover up like boxers directly, good picture by the way, it's definitely a helpful device. I like how exposed his legs seem to be, I would probably be attacking them quickly. I feel like you could crash in with a lan sao and bash in his head with elbows pretty effectively too, utilizing a v step, going out at a 45 degree angle and than regaining the line of attack turning the lan sao to a bong sau as you pivot to flank him and strike or trip ect ect.. lots of possibilities I can think of.. my thoughts are a wee bit scattered at the moment!

 

[matsu]

i take it we're talking about a street situation or sparring.

the street my first hit would be the groin-to bring his hands back down or just hopefully drop him.
sparring-agin the floating ribs with some low turning punches.
we also just use the weight of our arms to crash and smash thru.
but i am a beginner so i look forward to learning much from this thread.
cheers mook


matsu

 

[yak sao]

One thing I was taught in WT, that we try not to go toe to toe with a boxer.
We use the outfalling/arrow step (as found at beginning of wooden dummy set) to flank them.
If street, as was mentioned, attack the legs. Even if just sparring, wedge in behind their lead leg, using your legs to disrupt their balance. We also use pak,lop,jut etc to remove the arms from in front instead of mindlessly chainpunching the arms/shoulders

 

[Danny T]

Angle, take out the legs and dump him on to the ground, escape.
If while taking the legs the arms/hands drop strike the head during the dump and escape.

 

[mook jong man]

In this scenario , just for arguments sake , we'll say that it is a street self defence situation and you are already engaged at punching range.
He starts covering up to avoid your striking and you are choosing not to use any close range kicks.

Which ever hand technique you use , you must also be mindful of the fact that he can start firing back punches at any time , so our technique must also temporarily control his arms as we strike.

I think Yak Sao mentioned using a Pak , that works well too.
Do a good solid Pak to his elbow area as you step around to the side and it seems to spin his whole body around and open up the lines of attack to his exposed flank.

 

[cwk]

step to his lead hand side, use a lan or something similar to have contact control with the lead arm and strike with my free hand to the exposed flank.
I like to use kong jeung for strikes to the lower part of the side of their body i.e spleen/liver shot, and pheonix eye/ginger fist (same thing really)to the ribs.
a nice little trick I like to employ from this position is after the initial strike with the ginger fist (palm down), they will instinctively move their side away an inch or two because of the pain, so don't retract your striking hand. Strike again from that position using the "good old inch force" and on contact twist your ginger fist palm up, screwing your second knuckle into the ribs. The ribs are designed to take pressure from the side coming in and the ribcage will absorb force without breaking easily from most ordinary strikes. With the ginger fist screwing action however, the ribs are prized apart from each other and as they are not designed for this, they break easily.
An alternative to the knuckle screw is to rake down their ribs with same second knuckle.
The pain from either of these techniques should make them drop their elbow slightly on that side, leaving you the opportunity to elbow over the top of their guard with your controlling arm.

 

[Poor Uke]

Low kick to the shin or knee

 

[KamonGuy2]

People often forget that 14/16 oz gloves (as shown in the diagram) make a huge difference in relation to covering up

In a real situation, your opponent will be fighting bare knuckle and there will be a huge gap between his hands and the front of his face

Any guard like that is actually easy to rip down and mould through (we do this at Kamon all the time)

If you are playing the slow game (ie sparring in class with gloves on), attack other parts of the body (biceps, etc) with hooks which will make the guard weaker

Dont go for leg strikes, as the probablility of someone in that guard knowing Muay Thai/kickboxing/karate is high

There are a number of very direct attacks you can do against someone who is covered up like that, but it would be hard to discuss them over a forum

 

[geezer]

There are a number of very direct attacks you can do against someone who is covered up like that, but it would be hard to discuss them over a forum

That's the problem with these forums... but I do use the second approach mentioned in the OP-- catch the guard with a turning lap, sweep it aside and follow through with a hook or elbow, depending on range. Unfortunately, good boxers don't seem to hang out too long in a defensive guard like that!

 

[profesormental]

KICK TO THE GROIN!!

hehe...

Actually, not necessarily. Low line kicking is useful. As is grabbing and pulling down, (lop da). Yet it depends.

The person might be preparing a counter, and the person might not be static at all. So it depends.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Angle, take out the legs and dump him on to the ground, escape.
If while taking the legs the arms/hands drop strike the head during the dump and escape.

Coming from the same lineage as Danny, I have to say I'd do just about the same as him. Why waste time upstairs when his downstairs is completely open to any and all attacks. His groin, thighs, knees, shins, feet, etc. are all open to attack. And if you wanted to stay upstairs, his lower stomach, or uppercut to the solar plexis, or side step to the ribs, side of the head and face, which are all open for strikes too. Just because he's covered his face and eyes, you can hit him in those places because he not looking (as long as you're careful).

 

[hunt1]

Ding! Ding! Ding!
Geezer hits nail on the head.

The difference between training with others in your school doing what you think a boxer will do vs training against a skilled boxer in night and day.

Many things mentioned may work but many will not be able to get them to work because of lack of real training against those skilled in other fighting methods.

 

[KamonGuy2]

That's the problem with these forums... but I do use the second approach mentioned in the OP-- catch the guard with a turning lap, sweep it aside and follow through with a hook or elbow, depending on range. Unfortunately, good boxers don't seem to hang out too long in a defensive guard like that!

Yeah and its actually quite hard to latch onto the arms (ie its okay in drills or chi sao, but against a good boxer you will struggle)

Personally I will often clinch the person who presents a guard and tie up their hands so they cant use their strikes

 

[Poor Uke]

People often forget that 14/16 oz gloves (as shown in the diagram) make a huge difference in relation to covering up

In a real situation, your opponent will be fighting bare knuckle and there will be a huge gap between his hands and the front of his face

Any guard like that is actually easy to rip down and mould through (we do this at Kamon all the time)
.....

Dont go for leg strikes, as the probablility of someone in that guard knowing Muay Thai/kickboxing/karate is high

Agree with all of that...except I would still go for a low kick if the space presented.

 

[Domino]

I like the double palm strike idea.
If close enough, the bong sau strike idea would work well as I've been practicing in chum kiu.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I like the double palm strike idea.
If close enough, the bong sau strike idea would work well as I've been practicing in chum kiu.

Good luck with that....

 

[Domino]

Thanks, I need it
And what I mean't was I think the strike he was explaining is included in the chum kiu form.

 

[Vajramusti]

Opponent covering up. IMO- there is still likely to be an open line and variations in timing may be needed.

joy chaudhuri

 

[mook jong man]

Thanks, I need it
And what I mean't was I think the strike he was explaining is included in the chum kiu form.

The double palm strike is in the Chum Kiu form.
There is no luck involved , only speed , skill , force and reflex.

But like any technique it has to be used in the right circumstances , and that means for this particular technique to work the angle of his arms must be small so that his hands aren't too far from his head .

You are stepping in with your full bodyweight with one of the most powerful techniques in Wing Chun , the double palm strike , all that against the back of his wrists.
Quite frankly if done properly you would be lucky if you didn't break his neck.

Now if you use it in the wrong circumstance where the angle of his arms is a lot larger and there is some distance between his hands and his head , then it won't have the desired effect .

The increased angle in the arms means that it is now a stronger structure , and a double palm strike will likely just bounce off his arms or push him back slightly.

If both his arms are further out and away from his head then he is more likely to be vulnerable to any type of pulling motion on his wrists , especially if his arms are quite tense.

Try not to think in terms of technique , but think in terms of what structure is presented before you and what direction of force applied by you will be the best way to attack that structure.

We can use our various hand structures to apply force upwards , sideways , diagonal , forwards , back , all you have to do is work out which one is best suited to the circumstance , and thats where skill and experience come in.