When recreational drugs are legal...

[celtic_crippler]

MYTH: Alcohol and illicit drugs are no different; thus, it is hypocritical for society to allow alcohol use while outlawing other drugs.

FACT: Alcohol and illicit drugs have a major difference. Most people use alcohol as a beverage and don’t drink to become intoxicated; whereas, with drugs, intoxication is the sole purpose. That is why marijuana smokers seek the higher THC content in marijuana and why crack is so popular among cocaine users. A more factual analogy would be to compare drug use with drunkenness. In addition, illicit drugs are far more addicting than alcohol. Also, approximately one-half of our citizens use alcohol, whereas only approximately eight percent use illicit drugs. In fact, there are almost as many people addicted to alcohol as use illicit drugs. The paradox is, while society is strengthening and demanding stricter enforcement of alcohol laws, there are those who want to decriminalize and even abolish drug laws.

Cite youre source. Anybody that thinks alcohol isn't a drug is misinformed. Big surprise there... you posting this nonsense.

 

[Tgace]

MYTH: Elimination of drugs would reduce crime and free prison space for more serious violent offenders.

FACT: Removal of laws would reduce incidents for those specific violations, but the behavior would not change. Lowering the age of consent to 12 would reduce the number of child molestation crimes, but it would not change the fact that predators were molesting young children ages 12 to 18. The advocates fail to recognize what drug experts are well aware of: that a high percentage of drug dealers were criminals first.

Ninety-three percent of all state prison inmates are violent and/or serious repeat offenders. Only 1.4 percent are first-time, “non-violent” drug offenders. Keep in mind that “non-violent” only describes the act for which individuals are incarcerated and not their past history or previous behavior. If an organized crime “hit-man” were convicted for income tax evasion, then he would be considered a non-violent inmate.

 

[Steve]

MYTH: Alcohol and illicit drugs are no different; thus, it is hypocritical for society to allow alcohol use while outlawing other drugs.

FACT: Alcohol and illicit drugs have a major difference. Most people use alcohol as a beverage and don’t drink to become intoxicated; whereas, with drugs, intoxication is the sole purpose. That is why marijuana smokers seek the higher THC content in marijuana and why crack is so popular among cocaine users. A more factual analogy would be to compare drug use with drunkenness. In addition, illicit drugs are far more addicting than alcohol. Also, approximately one-half of our citizens use alcohol, whereas only approximately eight percent use illicit drugs. In fact, there are almost as many people addicted to alcohol as use illicit drugs. The paradox is, while society is strengthening and demanding stricter enforcement of alcohol laws, there are those who want to decriminalize and even abolish drug laws.

Are you kidding? I'd like to see the source for this fact. I will stand corrected if you can produce a reasonable source, but this sounds like more wishful thinking to me. With the number of alcohol related incidents including suicides, homicides, domestic violence, fights, accidental deaths, DUIs and you name it involving alcohol along with the booming business being done at bars across the country, I have a hard time believing this to be true.

Also, just thinking back to my high school days, it wasn't about getting completely baked. Just as you'd drink a beer or two and feel a nice buzz, it was great to share a bowl with a few guys and rock chemistry class. A mild fuzziness made mr. Diesner a lot easier to take. Just saying. Of course that was over 20 years ago now.


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[celtic_crippler]

If a frog had wings...

The War on Drugs is a failure. Denying that fact doesn't change anything and only perpetuates the problem. It seems some aren't interested in addressing the problem though... only in making themselves seem morally superior. Any time you guys would like to address the facts I've posted and dispute them with fact would be great. Oh wait... you can't... because they're facts and prove you're wrong.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Are you kidding? I'd like to see the source for this fact. I will stand corrected if you can produce a reasonable source, but this sounds like more wishful thinking to me. With the number of alcohol related incidents including suicides, homicides, domestic violence, fights, accidental deaths, DUIs and you name it involving alcohol along with the booming business being done at bars across the country, I have a hard time believing this to be true.

Also, just thinking back to my high school days, it wasn't about getting completely baked. Just as you'd drink a beer or two and feel a nice buzz, it was great to share a bowl with a few guys and rock chemistry class. A mild fuzziness made mr. Diesner a lot easier to take. Just saying. Of course that was over 20 years ago now.


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FYI... alcohol is the only drug where going through withdrawal from discontinuing its use can actually kill you. But don't try using actual facts on this crowd... SMH

 

[Steve]

MYTH: Elimination of drugs would reduce crime and free prison space for more serious violent offenders.

FACT: Removal of laws would reduce incidents for those specific violations, but the behavior would not change. Lowering the age of consent to 12 would reduce the number of child molestation crimes, but it would not change the fact that predators were molesting young children ages 12 to 18. The advocates fail to recognize what drug experts are well aware of: that a high percentage of drug dealers were criminals first.

Ninety-three percent of all state prison inmates are violent and/or serious repeat offenders. Only 1.4 percent are first-time, “non-violent” drug offenders. Keep in mind that “non-violent” only describes the act for which individuals are incarcerated and not their past history or previous behavior. If an organized crime “hit-man” were convicted for income tax evasion, then he would be considered a non-violent inmate.

I guess this works if you consider smoking weed and pedophilia to be equivalent. I don't. Once again, the number of people smoking weed is about twice the number of all other illicit drugs put together... 8 times if you remove prescription drug misuse. If we decriminalize pot, it's going to significantly impact the situation. Now, will heroin addicts still smoke weed? Probably, just as they still drink alcohol.


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[ballen0351]

A few questions for you if you don't mind me asking.

Dont mind at all thats why we are here to share ideas and learn from each other

I have heard from a few sources that underage drinking has gone down due to stiffer penalties levied to establishments that let under-21s access alcohol.

Most underage drinking enforcement actions do target the establishments vs going after the underage person itself. Most of the times if an underage person is sited its either because the officer just comes across it in his or her normal duties like a traffic stop and they have beer on the back seat or if they do spot ID checks in bars looking for fake Ids.

Is marijuana replacing alcohol in this age group, do you think?

I wouldnt say its replacing it but it is more popular then it was in the past. My opinion on why is because its becoming more main stream. I was down to the Ocean a few weeks ago and its senior week time where all the high school grad flock to the beach after graduation. I was walking down the boardwalk and every novelity T shirt store had 50 different shirts with some refrence to Marijuana on it. When I was a kid and went to the beach we had the same t-shirts but they would all have Budwiser on it not Purple Haze Its just what kids do.

If marijuana were legalized across the board...would the money coming in from taxation of its use be better than what is currently coming in from it's use?

Sure taxing marijuana would produce a large influx of tax money at first until the govt just kept taxing it and taxing it like they always do until people just started to grow there own. Its alot easier to grow a few pot plants in a closet then it is to say grow your own tobacco or micro-brew your own beer.

If marijuana users could to a town smoke shop or ABC store for their smokes, would that reduce the "gateway" effect? Im The local smoke shop isn't going to be a dealer that can profit in getting someone hooked on hard drugs. I think some idjits out their will always be pushing the envelope with their "high" no matter what, and these idjits will find a way to get the nasty stuff...but would legalization provide less temptations for the casual user?

I dont think the casual user would have the gateway effect even if it was legal or illegal. If your predisposed to addiction and you try drugs your going to be an addict. The problem comes when you dont know your predisposed and you try marijuana and think thats nice let me move on to crack. Some people will be crack heads no matter what I dont think Marijuana can make someone turn into a crack head that does not want to be a crack head I just think it makes the transition easier for the crack head. Im not sure if that makes any sense im approaching 40 hours without sleep so im about to crash. I just wanted to answer your questions first since you asked so nicely:bangahead:
I don't have a dog in the hunt here. I loathe street drugs (including marijuana) and have zero interest in using...but the libertarian side of me speaks out from time to time. A medical marijuana bill was going through legislature. It failed, but nonetheless its been a hot topic up here in the hinterlands [/QUOTE]

 

[ballen0351]

Too late, you already said it. You've also shown that you're a self centered, self righteous, selfish zealot who is incapable of entertaining a thought outside of their own narrow, limited point of view. It's all about "you" and nobody elses experience or suffering matters if it conflicts with your tiny little world. This shouldn't come as a surprise, since you have admitted to as much in post #121.

I love you too

 

[Steve]

If a frog had wings...

The War on Drugs is a failure. Denying that fact doesn't change anything and only perpetuates the problem. It seems some aren't interested in addressing the problem though... only in making themselves seem morally superior. Any time you guys would like to address the facts I've posted and dispute them with fact would be great. Oh wait... you can't... because they're facts and prove you're wrong.

While I agree with you p, I honestly don't see it as a desire to appear morally superior. I do disagree with a few of the guys here, but I respect their opinion. I think that weed is headed for legalization, and I honestly believe that once done people will wonder what the big deal was. Same as when DADT was lifted and we saw openly gay soldiers. Same as we will see when gays start really getting married. It's a bunch of hand wringing promoted by lobbies and politics and money.


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[Tgace]

Are you kidding? I'd like to see the source for this fact. I will stand corrected if you can produce a reasonable source, but this sounds like more wishful thinking to me. With the number of alcohol related incidents including suicides, homicides, domestic violence, fights, accidental deaths, DUIs and you name it involving alcohol along with the booming business being done at bars across the country, I have a hard time believing this to be true.

Also, just thinking back to my high school days, it wasn't about getting completely baked. Just as you'd drink a beer or two and feel a nice buzz, it was great to share a bowl with a few guys and rock chemistry class. A mild fuzziness made mr. Diesner a lot easier to take. Just saying. Of course that was over 20 years ago now.


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I don't know what fact you are referring to.

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/08/study-22-million-americans-use-illegal-drugs-3/

More than 22 million Americans age 12 and older - nearly 9% of the U.S. population - use illegal drugs, according to the government’s 2010 National Survey on Drug Use and Health.

The overall rate of drug use is only slightly higher than the 2009 study but nearly a percentage point above the 2008 survey.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I actually spent some time researching this and not just popping off opinion on a smart phone when I should have been doing my job. So, any time you'd like to address and try to disprove one of these facts or address the actual logic used.... feel free. It may actually prove productive.

First to address a few questions posed to me specifically…

I do not use anything other than alcohol. And since so many of you like to pop off about your personal experience and why it makes you “right”, let me enlighten you to the fact that I am a nurse. I’ve seen and treated addicts. But you don’t see me citing that as a basis for why I support the legalization of drugs. I also was in law enforcement in my youth and shared some of the same limited views that some of you presently have. It wasn’t until I got into healthcare and received more education and experience that my views changed. I suppose having an open mind helped in that regard. Contrary to others, I’ve been using logic, reason, and fact to support my position and not how I “feel” about the issue.

You’d think that after 4+ decades of trying to put out a fire with gasoline that somebody would have figured out that not only does it not work, but it makes the problem even worse.

Sure, the fire department has plenty of work and employs a lot more firemen. And those selling gasoline are making a killing; however, not only is the fire not extinguished but the damage is worse than it was than when you started.

It is blind ignorance and tantamount to insanity to continue a failed policy. I’ve never disputed the harm excessive drug use has on a person and/or their family. I’ve only disputed the method in which the problem is addressed.

Alcohol is legal and regulated; however, alcoholics still exist. They existed when it was illegal and they exist when it’s legal. The difference is that when it was illegal, there were more victims than just the addicts.

The facts are out there to prove the War on Drugs is a failure. Many of these facts are the results of studies done by our own government! Yet, people ignore these facts so that they can feel good about themselves and feel morally superior. Well, while you crusade, people like Brian Terry become victims due to a failed policy. Do you feel good about that?

Even when presented with these facts, supporters of the War on Drugs cite nothing but personal experience and limited personal perspective. Somehow thinking that they are the center of the universe and that their own unique and limited point of view should be the basis for how the rest of the world addresses the problem, in effect, adding fuel to the fire.

They can’t actually cite any real evidence that the War on Drugs is working, because there is none. In fact, the very government that perpetuates the War on Drugs has evidence and has conducted studies that say otherwise. So instead, these supporters rely on how they feel about it. I’ve long held that emotion is the enemy of reason…

There’s no denying that addiction is a problem, but addicts are overlooked along with their problems so that the self righteous can feel morally superior. Meanwhile, the addicts receive no help and those like the family of Brian Terry continue to suffer because of the collateral damage caused by a pointless, useless, and ineffective “War on Drugs”.

There is no easy fix, but making drugs illegal and treating addicts as criminals instead of having an illness has not and does not work. I know that treating it as a healthcare issue instead of a criminal issue is a more valid approach and more accurately addresses the problem. Many have claimed to want to reduce drug use but are unwilling to change their support for the War on Drugs, even though it is an obvious failure and harmed more people in the process. It makes absolutely no sense.

Even though “Prohibition” against alcohol proved many of my points many decades ago, for some reason many of you can not seem to see the correlation in regards to the “War on Drugs”. Countries that have legalized drugs, regulated drugs, and offer rehab for addicts have shown drastic decreases in crime, disease, and overall use thereby limiting and reducing the number of “victims”.

I appreciate the idealists of the world, but the world does not exist in terms of black and white. In many circumstances, we can only hope to limit and reduce the damage. I understand that it’s human nature to want to control our environment, but without understanding that this is impossible we almost always cause more harm than good.

FACTS: (And these aren’t from “some doc I don’t know”… many are the result of studies conducted by our own government as well as legitimate health care professionals)

• Over $40 billion in tax payer money is spent annually yet drug use has not declined
• The availability of illicit drugs has more than doubled in the last few decades
• Illicit drugs are more potent and cheaper than they were 20 years ago
• The government receives no tax revenue from the sell of illicit drugs
• Gangs chief source of income comes from the sell of illicit drugs
• Since the inception of the “War on Drugs”, the instances of drug overdose and ER drug episodes has steadily risen
• Marijuana is the most widely used illicit drug, yet has few adverse side effects. No one has ever overdosed from using marijuana and the long term health issues from its use are fewer than that of alcohol.
• Over 57% of addicts who want treatment receive none and are instead jailed.
• Each $1 invested in treatment saves $7 in societal costs
• Treatment is 10 times more effective at reducing use than imprisonment
• Over 60% of federal prisoners are incarcerated over NON-VIOLENT drug offenses. The US has more prisoners per capita than any other nation. Yet we claim to be the most “free”.
• More than 47,500 people have died in drug-related violence in Mexico over the last 5 years.
• 60% of the societal costs involved in illicit drug use are related to the associated black market crime related to the illegality of illicit drugs; only 30% of societal costs are related to the actual ingestion of illicit drugs.
• A Harvard study showed that the legalization of illicit drugs would inject over $76 billion annually into the US economy. Subtract the $40 billion spent annually on the War on Drugs and that’s a net increase of over $100 billion
• Studies show that treatment would be 23 times more effective than the current War on Drugs
• Only 10-15% of heroin and about 30% of cocaine shipments are intercepted by law enforcement. Over 75% would have to be intercepted to have any real impact on trafficker’s profits.
• According to the FBI in 2005, despite spending over $7 billion to arrest and prosecute over 800,000 people for marijuana offenses, 85% of all high school seniors reported that marijuana was “easy to obtain.”
• The Global Commission on Drug Policy recently released a report stating that the 4 decades long War on Drugs campaign has not only failed, but made the problem worse

And there’s much, much more out there… Those were just some highlights!!!

You asked for answers. The Global Commission on Drug Policy suggests the following:

• End the criminalization, marginalization and stigmatization of people who use drugs but who do not harm to others;
• Encourage the experimentation by governments with models of legal regulation of drugs (especially cannabis) to undermine the power of organized crime and safeguard the health and security of their citizens;
• Ensure that a variety of treatment modalities are available, including not just methadone and buprenorphine treatment, abut also the heroin-assisted treatment programs that have proven successful in many European countries and Canada;
• Apply human rights and harm reduction principles and policies both to people who use drugs as well as those involved in the lower ends of illegal drug markets such as farmers, couriers and petty sellers;
• Countries that continue to invest mostly in a law enforcement approach (despite the evidence) should focus their repression actions on violent organized crime and drug traffickers, in order to reduce the harms associated with the illicit drug market;
• Offer a wide and easily accessible range of options for treatment and care for drug dependence, including substitution and heroin-assisted treatment, with special attention to those most at risk, including those in prisons and other custodial settings;
• The United Nations system must provide leadership in the reform of global drug policy. This means promoting an effective approach based on evidence, supporting countries to develop drug policies that suit their context and meet their needs, and ensuring coherence among various UN agencies, policies and conventions.

 

[Steve]

I don't know what fact you are referring to.

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/08/study-22-million-americans-use-illegal-drugs-3/

The fact you posted and I quoted in my response. The link you provided doesn't support your "fact."


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[Tgace]

I guess this works if you consider smoking weed and pedophilia to be equivalent. I don't. Once again, the number of people smoking weed is about twice the number of all other illicit drugs put together... 8 times if you remove prescription drug misuse. If we decriminalize pot, it's going to significantly impact the situation. Now, will heroin addicts still smoke weed? Probably, just as they still drink alcohol.


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If all we are talking about is weed legalization I would have to agree with you. But, anecdotal examples aside, getting caught with user level marijuana RARELY results in prison time anyway. Hell many crack/heroin dealers get probation and early release. The idea that our jails are full of kids caught with joints is laughable (not that anyone here has said as such...but Ive seen it).

 

[celtic_crippler]

I don't know what fact you are referring to.

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/08/study-22-million-americans-use-illegal-drugs-3/

You continue to cite sources that prove drug use continues to increase under the current policy!!!! WTF, dude?

From your cited source: "Marijuana, cocaine, heroin, hallucinogens, inhalants and some prescription drugs used for non-medical purposes were counted in the survey. Marijuana was the most commonly used drug, with more than 17 million users in 2010, 3 million more than in the 2007 survey."

This is your evidence that the War on Drugs is working?!?!?! Just... WTF?

 

[Tgace]

You are going to have to explain what you are talking about...Im not copying. What claim in particular are you looking for support for?

 

[Tgace]

Here in NY simple possession is already decriminalized...it's a "violation", the penal law equivalent to a traffic ticket. I'm not even obligated by law to enforce a violation. I have let kids grind up their joints and go home on numerous occasions (situation/attitude depending). It's typically enforced when you are dumb enough to be smoking in your car or walking around with a bag in your pocket. Personally...if you are smart enough to keep it to the privacy of your home I could care less if you light up.

Our governor is looking to downgrade getting caught with/or smoking in public view from a misdemeanor to a violation. That wouldn't bother me either. Apparently (unconfirmed) some NYPD cops were getting people to empty their pockets and then charging them with the misdemeanor "public possession" instead of the violation. If true...well I wouldn't condone that...other cops MMV.

Dealers though? Its one thing partaking of an illegal substance, its another matter illegally profiting off of it.

 

[ballen0351]

Also, just thinking back to my high school days, it wasn't about getting completely baked. Just as you'd drink a beer or two and feel a nice buzz, it was great to share a bowl with a few guys and rock chemistry class. A mild fuzziness made mr. Diesner a lot easier to take. Just saying. Of course that was over 20 years ago now.

I think if you go on some Marijuana review website that review different strains and see some of the major factors used to rate the High include catagories like "Couch Lock" "numbness factor" and "brain haze" You will see marijuana from today is much different then 20 years go and people are buying these hybrid strains of high grade marijuana just to get "baked"

 

[celtic_crippler]

I think if you go on some Marijuana review website that review different strains and see some of the major factors used to rate the High include catagories like "Couch Lock" "numbness factor" and "brain haze" You will see marijuana from today is much different then 20 years go and people are buying these hybrid strains of high grade marijuana just to get "baked"

I cited the fact that drugs have become cheaper and more potent since the inception of the War on Drugs. How does this fact lead you to believe the policy is actually working?

 

[Tgace]

Here in NY simple possession is already decriminalized...it's a "violation", the penal law equivalent to a traffic ticket. I'm not even obligated by law to enforce a violation. I have let kids grind up their joints and go home on numerous occasions (situation/attitude depending). It's typically enforced when you are dumb enough to be smoking in your car or walking around with a bag in your pocket. Personally...if you are smart enough to keep it to the privacy of your home I could care less if you light up.

Our governor is looking to downgrade getting caught with/or smoking in public view from a misdemeanor to a violation. That wouldn't bother me either. Apparently (unconfirmed) some NYPD cops were getting people to empty their pockets and then charging them with the misdemeanor "public possession" instead of the violation. If true...well I wouldn't condone that...other cops MMV.

Dealers though? Its one thing partaking of an illegal substance, its another matter illegally profiting off of it.

That being said..the only way to successfully investigate dealers is through confidential informants, who are typically users who have been arrested. If you make possession of Coke, Heroin, Meth etc legal but then expect us LEO's to concentrate on arresting the dealers...well you don't know how that's done.

And this isn't an issue of police procedure as much as it is an issue of criminal procedure and DA restrictions.

 

[celtic_crippler]

A really simple analogy:

Let's say you have a goal to lose 20lbs.

You come up with a diet plan hoping to lose 20lbs.

After 4 months on this new diet plan, you actually gain 20lbs.

Do you continue with that diet plan or do you re-evaluate it and change it?