When Martial Arts was called Montu Arts and Nubian Wrestling (Article)

[clfsean]

To further add to it. Martial Art is derived from Mars the Roman God of War son of Jupiter (which in Greek it is Ares son of Zeus Pater). Therefore Mars is not worshipped in India by the Hindu faith. It is important to understand anguage or else we are going to miss it. So there is no way that Martial Arts invented during the dark ages whatsoever.

Umm... no. In China, wu 武is "military" or "warlike" ... shu 術 is "practice" or "technique". Transliteration & Romanization makes it "martial art" referring back to the Mars reference since our language is Latin based.

The Greeks were educated from the African people. The first library was built in Egypt. The Greek pantheon of Gods were influence by Egyptian Gods. The Egyptian diety of warfare Montu was changed to Ares by the Greeks and then changed to Mars by the Romans.

Please provide peer reviewed & published papers on where the Greeks were students of African people. I'm not quite aware of the Greeks feeble mindedness & the need to be taught, then usurp another cultures pantheon of gods & religion.

The Library of Alexandria was conceived & ordered built by a Macedonian general, Ptolemy Lagides (or Ptolemy I Soter I), that served under Alexander (Macedonian, not Egyptian) that took control of Egypt & the title of Pharoah around 323 BC give or take. He founded the Ptolemic Dynasty of Egypt. But he was NOT African by birth or nationality. He became king of Egypt by political wrangling & probably some bloodshed.

 

[mook jong man]

Some experts think that the Indigenous people of Australia may have been on the continent for 70000 years or maybe even longer. Did the Africans teach the Aborigines how to fashion spears , shields and cave a human skull in with a nulla nulla (war club) , I don't think so. These things were born out of necessity , to protect them from the animals they hunted and other hostile tribes, nothing to do with being taught by Africans, Egyptians, Greeks or anyone else for that matter.

 

[clfsean]

Cain vs Abel... round 1 to Cain. Warfare, homocide, fratricide, martial arts, vampires, etc... all created at one shot.

Older than Africa depending on POV & religious background.

Move along... nothing more to see.

 

[ATACX GYM]

While I will agree that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, it is certainly not the evidence of presence. If these "facts" are currently beyond us, they are not facts. They are speculation. To remain intellectually honest, one must also remain agnostic about these postulates.

I didn't think that we were debating proof of presence,as we already have proof of presence.The only issue is how far back into antiquity these African warrior arts stretch.By the very necessities of human civilization's primary method of development,these warrior arts are a mandatory part of not only African but human civilization itself...without which said African civilization couldn't maintain its existence. Since very few people energetically deny that African civilization was the first civilization on earth,it's pretty sensible to infer and conclude that the African warrior arts likewise preceded all others as a necessary corollary to said African civilization. When I said that there was probably an absence of hard data in the sense of "Sinanju begat Montu Arts which begat Hindu Arts which begat Shaolin etc."..I was referring specifically to something on the order of some ultra mystical scroll or record keeping library,monastery and/or region that traced the path dissemination and evolution of African arts from the Motherland to however far these African martial arts and sciences travelled. We may never find such a thing; but the anteriority of the African civilization perforce proves the anteriority of the African martial arts as well.

Now,the next issue will be: which homo sapiens sapiens civilization preceded others? This question has been wrangled over forever,but by and large the OoA (Out of Africa) camp of thought is right in that homo sapiens sapiens developed first in Africa too. That inference is bred wholesale into the concept that homo sapiens sapiens civilization developed first in Africa...along with whatever form of civilization that attended each stage of the evolution of the human animal...all of which is also widely held to happen first in Africa too.To infer otherwise would indicate something on the order of assuming that there would be factors of climate terrain diet etc. which accelerated the various hominid and Cro-Magnon humans in other non-African locales to homo sapiens sapiens faster than said evolutionary forces came to bear in Africa.That would be a very difficult to accept premise without some very detailed data. To the best of my knowledge,not only does that data not exist? There is quite a bit of data to soundly champion the cause of homo sapiens sapiens developing in Africa first by quite a long period of time.

 

[elder999]

Since very few people energetically deny that African civilization was the first civilization on earth,it's pretty sensible to infer and conclude that the African warrior arts likewise preceded all others as a necessary corollary to said African civilization..

Er...don't really ahve time here, but I'm afraid I have to "energetically deny that African civilization was the first civilization on earth." The first civilization that we know of arose in the middle east, in Sumer-specifically, what's now Iraq, in the so called fertile crescent between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, around 4000 BC.

At least, that's the conventional story. If you want to make the case for the ancient Egyptians being Africans, and Egyptian civilization dating back 10-14 thousand years, well, I've heard it before, but you're not going to have much chance of convincing anyone else on this forum.

 

[Tez3]

The first martial arts came from the aliens...it's always the aliens.

 

[clfsean]

Yeah but they left, so they bloody don't get credit.

Unless they left a lightsaber somewhere around...

 

[ATACX GYM]

Er...don't really ahve time here, but I'm afraid I have to "energetically deny that African civilization was the first civilization on earth." The first civilization that we know of arose in the middle east, in Sumer-specifically, what's now Iraq, in the so called fertile crescent between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, around 4000 BC.

At least, that's the conventional story. If you want to make the case for the ancient Egyptians being Africans, and Egyptian civilization dating back 10-14 thousand years, well, I've heard it before, but you're not going to have much chance of convincing anyone else on this forum.

Well yes then we would have that wonderfully intense and perhaps bladed disagreement my friend elder,as I and (as you know) whole camps of quite respected and thoroughly knowledgeable scientists would very sharply disagree with you. What you refer to as "the conventional story" is more in keeping with the part of the debate that you credit.I very much credit the opposite conclusion. And yes,I agree...we don't really have time here for that kind of debate. And I don't mind in the least not convincing many others on this forum of the correctness of my opinion in this matter...which you probably suspected.

 

[punisher73]

Er...don't really ahve time here, but I'm afraid I have to "energetically deny that African civilization was the first civilization on earth." The first civilization that we know of arose in the middle east, in Sumer-specifically, what's now Iraq, in the so called fertile crescent between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, around 4000 BC.

At least, that's the conventional story. If you want to make the case for the ancient Egyptians being Africans, and Egyptian civilization dating back 10-14 thousand years, well, I've heard it before, but you're not going to have much chance of convincing anyone else on this forum.

Then you can throw in Tiwanaku in South America that existed around 12-17,000 years ago and can't be explained either. Kind of makes one wonder if there was some type of flood that killed off most of the earth's human population and we "started over".

 

[ATACX GYM]

Heard about that one too. That's part and particle of that massively intense detailed hotly disputed debate that elder and I referred to earlier,and which we are on opposite sides of. See,the elder date of Tiwanaku is older than the Sumerian date that elder gave and...nvm. I will drop it before that major OoA vs MR (Out of Africa vs Multiregional) debate is rekindled over here.

 

[elder999]

Heard about that one too. That's part and particle of that massively intense detailed hotly disputed debate that elder and I referred to earlier,and which we are on opposite sides of. See,the elder date of Tiwanaku is older than the Sumerian date that elder gave and...nvm. I will drop it before that major OoA vs MR (Out of Africa vs Multiregional) debate is rekindled over here.

We're not on opposite side at all. Remember: "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

There just isn't enough "evidence" to make some of the leaps that you are. I have no doubt, though, that the Sphinx is a lot older than Zawi Hawass would have the rest of the world believe-and I have a pretty good idea what it's head was like before it was modified into Khufu's......can't prove it, and it doesn't prove anything. :lfao:

 

[punisher73]

We're not on opposite side at all. Remember: "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

There just isn't enough "evidence" to make some of the leaps that you are. I have no doubt, though, that the Sphinx is a lot older than Zawi Hawass would have the rest of the world believe-and I have a pretty good idea what it's head was like before it was modified into Khufu's......can't prove it, and it doesn't prove anything. :lfao:

There is a temple not far from the Sphynx that is alot older than those structures. No one really knows who built it or when. The sphynx shows alot of water damage, as if it was in a flood, that does not match up to it's regular errosion. It also points to an older pre-egyptian culture. I think it is an interesting theory that civilization is alot older than we think it is and was destroyed by something. ALL major/old religions have the story of the great flood in it, and there is evidence that one happened. Could be something to that.

There was an interesting show on either History or Discovery that talked about what would happen if all the people died. Basically, except for buildings most historical traces (art, data, books etc.) of us would be gone in a VERY short amount of time ( less than 5 years) because the way we store data is not good and would not last to the elements.

 

[elder999]

There is a temple not far from the Sphynx that is alot older than those structures. No one really knows who built it or when. The sphynx shows alot of water damage, as if it was in a flood, that does not match up to it's regular errosion. It also points to an older pre-egyptian culture. I think it is an interesting theory that civilization is alot older than we think it is and was destroyed by something. ALL major/old religions have the story of the great flood in it, and there is evidence that one happened. Could be something to that..

That's what I'm (not) talking about......:lfao:

 

[Blindside]

Correct. Human civilization began in Eastern Africa therefore indigenous fighting systems originated there.

Regardless of the "which civilization" argument, why does "civilization" need to be present for a "martial art" to be present? Martial arts can originate at the tribal and even family level, the presence or absence of a civilization does not really prove anything with regard to the rise of "indigenous fighting systems."

 

[Blindside]

To further add to it. Martial Art is derived from Mars the Roman God of War son of Jupiter (which in Greek it is Ares son of Zeus Pater). Therefore Mars is not worshipped in India by the Hindu faith. It is important to understand language or else we are going to miss it. So there is no way that Martial Arts invented during the dark ages whatsoever.

The Greeks were educated from the African people. The first library was built in Egypt. The Greek pantheon of Gods were influence by Egyptian Gods. The Egyptian diety of warfare Montu was changed to Ares by the Greeks and then changed to Mars by the Romans.

The idea of the Mars as a war (and agriculture) god predated the Greek influence on Roman society, once the influence occured the Ares myths were fused with those for Mars. Also clearly, given that the major influence of Greece on Rome was after its (Greece) conquest, the presence of well established martial arts in the Roman Empire can be assumed.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Regardless of the "which civilization" argument, why does "civilization" need to be present for a "martial art" to be present? Martial arts can originate at the tribal and even family level, the presence or absence of a civilization does not really prove anything with regard to the rise of "indigenous fighting systems."

Martial arts DID originate in the fighting methods of successful hunters families tribes etc. These individuals and units are part and parcel of civilization. Civilization doesn't always mean cities states empires etc. But it's mandatory that in order to achieve any state or civilization,martial arts had to be a vital part of its creation because without martial arts? The competition of survival would simply have eliminated any aspiring state and nation builders. At no time was anyone taking issue with your contention above,Blindside...at least imo nobody was. However,if we locate the oldest civilization in human history,we have also located the oldest martial arts in human history. The temples near the Sphinx,for instance,and the ancient civilization of Wo'se from which Egypt sprang,and many other specifics indicate that there are very ancient civilizations in Africa which predate all others. There is only a debate of this level of intensity and with this far reaching and even over reaching of hypothesis regarding the author of martial arts or any of the refined arts that are still practiced today whenever the location seems to strongly indicate that the authors are Black. I don't recall,for instance,anyone claiming that Romans pioneered Greek civilization.Ancient African civilization,dynastic Egypt,pre-dynastic Egypt,Ptah-Seti which spawned Egypt and covered far more ground than present day Ethiopia does (including the area that much later would be called Nubia or in this article Nuba) the entirety of the indigenous African population...are Black.Therefore we don't need to trouble ourselves on that score,the only issue we may be debating is which specific Black people of which ancient African civilization are the actual historical authors of martial arts.

The OP advances the idea that the people we call Nubians--who like Egypt were part of the ancient Ptah-Seti/Wose empire--might have been the authors. Others may claim that the Sumerians predate them but there is also quite a bit of data that indicates that the original Sumerians were also Black and African ( I know,elder,I know. LOLOLOL.) Gentlemen,this thread is veering dangerously closer and closer to the OoA vs MRH debate that I referred to earlier...which remains unsettled for many. I don't find the primary conclusions to be so confounding or obfuscating,and clearly I am of the position that humanity in every form including homo sapiens sapiens first originated in Africa and these homo sapiens sapiens were Black.Others disagree. This is where we find ourselves in direct disagreement. elder has reminded us that "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" and I agree...I simply disagree that there is evidence which trumps the evidence which points directly at homo sapiens sapiens being first in Africa.

 

[geezer]

...clearly I am of the position that humanity in every form including homo sapiens sapiens first originated in Africa and these homo sapiens sapiens were Black.

See... that's the problem. If you go back far enough, all of our ancestors originated in Africa and had dark skin. It makes the whole issue kind of moot. What's questionable is saying that the martial arts, civilization, what have you, originated with Blacks, projecting the peculiar racial beliefs of our own history backwards onto the distant past. It reminds me of the attitudes of the 19th and early 20th centuries when various groups and nationalities misinterpreted history and archeology through the warped lenses of their own uber-nationalism, equating race with human accomplishment and hatching some pretty bizarre and dangerous ideas (can you say Nazi!). I thought we were moving beyond that kind of thinking (and it's backlash) in twenty-first century America.

Personally, I fully expect my grandkids to be as ethnically diverse as Elder (and hopefully as smart too). When the vast majority of our decendents reach that level of diversity, maybe we can finally stop worrying about what the racial makeup was of the first humans to accomplish... whatever!

 

[ATACX GYM]

See... that's the problem. If you go back far enough, all of our ancestors originated in Africa and had dark skin. It makes the whole issue kind of moot. What's questionable is saying that the martial arts, civilization, what have you, originated with Blacks, projecting the peculiar racial beliefs of our own history backwards onto the distant past. It reminds me of the attitudes of the 19th and early 20th centuries when various groups and nationalities misinterpreted history and archeology through the warped lenses of their own uber-nationalism, equating race with human accomplishment and hatching some pretty bizarre and dangerous ideas (can you say Nazi!). I thought we were moving beyond that kind of thinking (and it's backlash) in twenty-first century America.

Personally, I fully expect my grandkids to be as ethnically diverse as Elder (and hopefully as smart too). When the vast majority of our decendents reach that level of diversity, maybe we can finally stop worrying about what the racial makeup was of the first humans to accomplish... whatever!

While I agree that there is a gigantic peril of projecting modern day biases onto people of the past...an area that I have strenuously objected to and noted myself...there is no connection to acknowledging that the martial arts originated in Africa with Black people. We have long known that there could not be a single person,a family unit,a clan,a village,etc. without the martial skill to protect said family unit from predators and the ability to hunt and provide for said family unit.This requirement becomes more involved and complicated as the size of the people involved in the endeavor increases.A hand full of scouts become a brace of scouting hunters who develope into the vanguard of an invading army,for instance. As you pointed out,humanity's ancestors being African is a human thing. It makes debate moot on this issue. Civilization's origins are also African,which makes the people Black...and since there could not be a civilization in any form without the military might to form it and fend for it? The martial arts are also without question African in origin. The specific records of the most remote African martial arts are perhaps lost to us forever.

I decry ANY racist attitude,including the racist attitudes of the European 19th and early 20th centuries too ( I say "European 19th and 20th centuries" because older people and civilizations of course have a different calendar and different take on this matter) and in no way endorse what amounts to the opposite and what people horrifically miscall "reverse racism". Hate that phrase,btw. And as much as I would like to believe that collectively we as humans have moved beyond such beknighted attitudes of the past? We haven't. Look at faaarrr too many obvious instances of this,including the reaction that President Obama engenders from the fringe wings. I denounce such attitudes.

But this issue of the martial arts primacy of Africa is not such a matter. Others may project their inadequacies upon it,but this issue in and of itself is devoid of such stupidities.However, making an assertion such as mine gives rise to the immediate challenge of many that presuppose that Africa is NOT the birthplace of the most ancient human civilization...merely the birthplace of the earliest forms of humanity and NOT homo sapiens sapiens. I would advance the notion that the site of the most ancient civilizations is by necessity the work of homo sapiens sapiens,and the site of the most ancient civilizations is unquestionably Africa and I would be echoing the work of hundreds if not thousands of anthropologists preceding us all and outshining us all in their field of work...and here we go again.OoA vs MRH...Out of Africa vs the Multiregional model. There are those who honestly and objectively ask this question as a noble pursuit of accurate knowledge for the benefit of all mankind,and then there are those who number faaarrr too many that ask the question as a form of race baiting; they have an agenda to push and preformed beliefs which they seek to validate above all others and at virtually all costs. I seek to avoid that seething cauldron of enflamed passions because ultimately...none of us onsite can resolve this matter. Our trusted esteemed and objective anthropology scientists and seniors will resolve this matter by going out in the field and discovering,and then using the lab to finish their sluething.

Although there are many...maaaanny...who feel that this matter has been resoundingly concluded already and Africa is without a doubt the birthplace of humanity and humanity's oldest civilizations...

 

[Cyriacus]

See... that's the problem. If you go back far enough, all of our ancestors originated in Africa and had dark skin. It makes the whole issue kind of moot. What's questionable is saying that the martial arts, civilization, what have you, originated with Blacks, projecting the peculiar racial beliefs of our own history backwards onto the distant past. It reminds me of the attitudes of the 19th and early 20th centuries when various groups and nationalities misinterpreted history and archeology through the warped lenses of their own uber-nationalism, equating race with human accomplishment and hatching some pretty bizarre and dangerous ideas (can you say Nazi!). I thought we were moving beyond that kind of thinking (and it's backlash) in twenty-first century America.

Personally, I fully expect my grandkids to be as ethnically diverse as Elder (and hopefully as smart too). When the vast majority of our decendents reach that level of diversity, maybe we can finally stop worrying about what the racial makeup was of the first humans to accomplish... whatever!

Im interesting in one part of your Idealogy - I may be missing something, but ive gotta put it up.

South Africans do not have Dark Skin.
The Middle East, albeit a bit after, sure did lighten their Skin quickly as well.
'specially the Persians.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Im interesting in one part of your Idealogy - I may be missing something, but ive gotta put it up.

South Africans do not have Dark Skin.
The Middle East, albeit a bit after, sure did lighten their Skin quickly as well.
'specially the Persians.

The actual indigenous people of those regions...the Xhosa,Zulu,the short folks who Europeans called Hottentots at one time...are absolutely without a doubt phenotypically Black African. Any and all lighter persons are likely a much much later admixture of late Arabic and even later European stock.The Caucasians borne in Africa--all of them--can trace their lineage to another continent,just as we Africans in America can do the same. The Middle Easterners were at a time much darker than they currently are,but lightened considerably after millenia of intermixture.And that goes double for the Persians,who neeeever looked aaaanything like they'd have us believe they do in the movie PRINCE OF PERSIA. Although the action in that movie was madd cool.