XMA martial arts performances

[Kwan Jang]

Twin Fist,
Thanks for the walk down memory lane. I still see Margie quite often (gotta keep your eyes on the quiet ones, they're the real danger.LOL). George was ranked #1 in '79, '80 (with John #2) and '83. John (a student and nephew of Jhoon Rhee and no relation to George) was #1 in '81 and '82 in men's forms. George was also rated #1 in weapons in '80 with Cyndi being #1 in womens' forms and weapons (men and women)in '82. She continued her domination of women's forms until she retired years later.

I remember Jean very well. He had been the top forms guy in Canada for some time then debuted in the USA at the Top Ten Nationals in '83. That was my first tour show as a black belt and I took 4th, then this guy came out of nowhere and took the Grands. It had been a couple of years since anyone besides John and George had won a grand championship at ANY national event, so this caused quite a stir. In '83 a lot of people won grands (even me), but he was the first to break the "Chung streak". After we all quit the circuit, I heard that Jean dominated for a time after that. I saw him on a cable show a couple of years ago (DEADLY ARTS iirc) highlighting karate in Okinawa. He still showed incredible form.

As far as the majority of XMA guys not having solid basics, I think you are exaggerating a bit. I'm sure that there are quite a few out there who lack solid basics, but there are still quite a few who are solid. I will say nothing in defense of those who lack the solid basics though. Even among the XMA trickers, there's a saying :"flash is trash without good basics".

 

[jks9199]

I don't have a problem with XMA for what it is; a performance based competition that derived from martial arts. But considering it a martial art is kind of like comparing the modern pentathlon to modern military training, or many marksmanship competitions to a real gunfight...

I absolutely respect the athleticism needed to do these moves. And some, if not many, XMA competitors do have solid grounding in a martial art (just like many MMA fighters have solid grounding in one or more traditional martial arts). But I also think that the stunts and flips and other things distract from the "martial" in the martial arts.

 

[Twin Fist]

kwan Jang,
I wasnt referring to the top people, they are good at whatever, I am talking about the underbelts that try to emulate them. The ones that try to do handstands in the intermediate divisions. The top guys will always be well rounded, they HAVE to be.

As for the past, I remember those days well.

Jean did surprise everyone, comming out of nowhere like that, man he was good. Then Charlie Lee came around and it was a bar fight for mens kata. Then Kieth Hirobiyashi jumped in and BAM.

Up till that year, it was either 85 or 86, no soft stylist had wons the mens national title, and no hard stylist had won the womens kata title, then Keith won the mens and I think it was Helen Chung won the womens titles.

I loved John's kata to Bethoven and George's to william tell overture. And the way George could work soft style techniques into his hard style form.


Ninebird, I know what you are talking about, i was telling my students about Billy Blanks just a couple weeks ago, when they asked me about Tae Bo, they were shocked when i told them that Billy was a total and complete badass in his day.

I remember seeing him catch a jump spinning hook kick to the mouth, spit a tooth or two and want to keep going. And for a BIG guy, Billy was fast as a greased weasle. DAMN good kicks.

I never was impressed by Nasty Anderson, except for his speed. He was FAST, but all he had was hands. And Ray McCallum cleaned his clock everytime they fought.

I have never heard of Cynthia fighting anywhere, but Arlene Limas was incredible, and did a great kata too. Linda Denley was just a machine, but Arlene gave her some great fights. The one I always rooted for tho was Lori Lantrip. She was so sweet, but the bigger girls just overpowered her.

And jean Frenette's student Lind Due Trin, she was a great fighter too.

 

[exile]

The reason is that the "-do" nature of the arts that were brought to the public in the late 19th and early 20th century have beat XMA to this by nearly a century. Looking at karate-do (and it's Korean step-children of TKD and TSD), it was already watered down into a "school children's art" from it's original Okinawan/Ryukyu kempo-jitsu roots. The kata bunkai you speak of was never part of the training for the masses and the way that most people train it is even less combat worthy. We are not just already in a state of "Japanese and Korean performance wushu", but this is actually the legacy that we came from and that we were always exposed to.

I wouldn't dispute a single word of this....

It's great that some schools. like Allen's, Stuart's, mine and a few others are back tracking the original combat intent of traditional basics and forms. I consider it as much a part of the ongoing evolution of effective combat martial arts as I do MMA and RBSD. The reality though is that a very small percentage of schools and instructors teach this way or even have any desire to teach this way and never will.

... or this...

It's funny in a way that this part of the evolution is coming from re-discovering what has been all but lost from the past, but I truly doubt that it will ever be a major part of the martial arts picture, especially to the general public or beginners. We can try and we can put out the good word, but it's to long and slow of a process to effectively reach the masses.

... or this. There's no question in my mind that already a huge amount of the 'jutsu' content of the TMAs has been lost. I don't think that that knowledge itself need be totally irretrievable—careful study of the forms can, I think, allow the patient investigator to recover at least a portion of it (Stuart A's and SimonJON's work are good illustrations, and the kind of pursuit of the Okinawan sources that you've referred to is bound to yield crucial information about the intended application of many pattern subsequences). What may be irretrievable is the will to even approach the MAs from that point of view. I'm not sure this is 100% given, but it's definitely swimming against the cultural tide to try to build a curriculum for a TMA around realistic fighting skills based on that art.

Just as I see MMA/NHB sparring as a natural evolution of competitive fighting, I see XMA as a natural evolution of the karate-do forms competition as a performance art and sport. There have always been these elements in the arts and it's natural for the performance sport and crowd to want to evolve. Some of them may eventually change focus as they (and their joints) age and may later become some of the small percentage that want to take the time to learn the kyusho and tuite bunkai.

That at least is a hopeful possibility to add to the mix. It's always struck me that a MA curriculum which has nothing to offer the aging practitioner or the non-athlete is going to wind up alienating a substantial number of potential students. The rub is—as per what I've bolded in the above quote—the risk that there may come a time when there will be no one to learn the deeper bunkai elements from. My concern is really about the extinction of knowledge. As long as it's transmitted, even from one small number of instructors to a comparably small number of students, it will still be there, but if the line of transmission fails, it will be that much harder to recover it by studying (and experimenting) with the forms—and some of it probably never can be regained....

 

[geezer]

XMA is movie martial arts and not much more really..

Interesting debate. As my moniker "Geezer" suggests, I'm a bit of a Rip VanWinkle type, having come back to the martial arts after being out of touch for nearly 20 years. I don't even know what XMA is. I read through the sticky on abbreviations and didn't see it listed there. But then my background was CMA, starting with a bit of SKF and TJQ, then WC and esp. WTK with some WMA and later FMA incl. LWS and then DTE and never had much to do with JMA or KMA incl. TSD, HKD, KSW or TKD, nor do I follow CWS which seems closer to this XMA stuff. BTW, IMHO all these abbrev. Intls. are STPD. LOL.

So anyway I'm left to surmise that XMA must mean something like "Exhibition Martial Arts" and is strictly for show. I can accept that, and the clip posted certainly showed evidence of great athletic ability. But to my old eyes, it was a juvenile caricature of "all things martial" and aesthetically speaking was far less satisfying than good Wushu. Although, since I don't even know what XMA is... nevermind. But on the basis of this performance, I'm not especially motivated to find out!

 

[Kwan Jang]

Ninebird,
Unlike George, John wasn't a team mate and classmate of mine, so I know far less of his fighting ability. However, I do remember him beating John Longstreet (who was ranked #2 or #3 in point sparring at the time) in a point match at the Diamond Nationals one year.

As far as Cynthia is concerned, I have been kicked by her before and she could fight and hit hard. She trained at our school under KJN Ernie for roughly 1 1/2 years before she and George broke off and started their "AMERICA'S BEST" school. She was about 25 when I was 16, so other than an occasional black belt class or some demo practices and shows together, we didn't interact that much. I do remember that among the women black belt's in class, she did pretty well in the sparring. She used to work over Dianne Murray pretty well (Dianne later was an Olympic silver medalist in TKD in Barcelona in '92 and is a BLACK BELT HALL OF FAME fighter), but this was before Dianne made a LOT of improvement later on. Cynthia used to get wacked around quite a bit by Nancy Ferguson (former /then national champ in TKD sparring) iirc.

As far as putting her up against Linda or Arlene, I don't think she would win a point match against either. We focused a LOT more on full contact work than point sparring. She probably wouldn't have embarrassed herself by any means, but those two ladies were in a class by themselves as far as point sparring was concerned back in those days. Sammy Montgomery, KJN Tony, and George were the only ones I remember who used to venture into point sparring very often. While Sammy, and KJN Tony still did more full contact than points. George broke his jaw in a sparring match in class, so because of his "bad jaw", he never went as much into full contact competition as many of the rest of us did.

 

[Twin Fist]

Ninebird,
However, I do remember him beating John Longstreet (who was ranked #2 or #3 in point sparring at the time) in a point match at the Diamond Nationals one year.

I forgot about that.

Well, from what GM Allen Steen told me of GM Jhoon Rhee's training, anyone that gets a black belt from Rhee can fight.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Find a good dancer or gymnist (especially gymnist) and I will show you someone who can do the very same thing with little practice.

My point exactly. Learning some fancy foot work is easy, but to know how to use it is another. There are people out there who can fight for real in a flashy manner, but they are far and few. Just because there are 1 out of 1000 XMA people who may be able to actually fight, in no way does that speak for XMA as a whole.
I enjoyed the kicking lesson vid though, and I'd love to train under the girl and learn what she has to offer. I'm not trying to insult her,
I'm making a entirely different point here, I hope I'm not being misunderstood.

 

[Tez3]

I don't see a problem with anything she did on the competition floor.

She was competing in XMA, not sparring, not Forms, not weapons.

There are people saying that because she excels in one area, the other areas are weak in her repertoire.

There are posters here who have seen her in other areas of competition and say she has legit skills in those areas.

I guess when you're at the top, you're nothing but a target.

I think you are wrong, it's been explained very well by Exile and the others the reason we have grave doubts wabout this type of exhibition work. It isn't clear to the general public as it is to us that this is not general martial arts, that it's a specific type of gymnastic exercise.
We aren't 'hating' the people who do this type of stuff nor are we targetting them, we just don't want all martial arts to be represented by them.

 

[exile]

We aren't 'hating' the people who do this type of stuff nor are we targetting them, we just don't want all martial arts to be represented by them.

Absolutely right, Tez. There's no personal ill-will involved in this discussion, I'm sure of that. I admire the combination of strength and flexibility that lets people do these kinds of things... just as, when I was a ski racer, I admired the acrobatic and athletic skills of the freestylers, the aerialists and 'figure skiers', but worried about all the kids who looked at someone doing a backflip off a jump, going out into a spread eagle and landing clean, and thought that that had something to do with the way you can make the skis lightly touch the snow between short-radius turns through tight gates. The two have little or nothing to do with each other, in fact, and the actual skills necessary to make skis flow like water on the side of a mountain, all the way down a couple of thousand feet of vertical or more, are in a different universe from what the aerialists were doing, which has more to do with what Olympic diving competitors do than with what we racers were doing. But kids would take one look at the outrageous, unbelievable gymnastics of the aerial freestylers and decide that that's what skiing was... while still unable to get halfway down a shallow slope in anything like control. The aerialists were great, but they helped lead a generation of young skiers astray, who never learned how to carve a perfect turn in good snow, or ski a bump field so easily and smoothly that you would have sworn it was flat as a board. I taught skiing as well, and convincing kids that you had to turn before you could fly—that you had to master the basics before you could work on the frontiers—was impossible. And again, the popular media played the same kind of role: emphasizing the glitz and the flash, and depicting the hard-won mastery of solid technique as tedious. The ski media knew better, and constantly warned readers against making that mistake... but mostly it was the people who already knew that who were reading those articles in the first place.

My point is just that this kind of thing happens everywhere you look. Fortunately, it never went that far in skiing. But the dynamic was the same back then as it is in the MAs now.

 

[seasoned]

So her skills as demonstrated correlate to her being less of a martial artist, or a poor martial artist?

I fail to make the connection.

I believe that skills with techniques, are a small part of being a Martial Artists. There is so much more. It appears she has talent for sure, but I don’t think a self defense based curriculum alone, would satisfy her. I feel Martial Arts are for everyone, but witnessing this performance, would indicate it would limit any students to a small percentage, of all the people that could or ever be able to do what she does.

 

[Hand Sword]

For me, this stuff and what tournaments became through the years were simply MA themed gymnastic routines. I never felt that had a significant place in the arts. Now, for those that do it, GOD BLESS THEM! They have exceptional skills, and I would never doubt it. However, I do think that they are the pinnacle of what went wrong with the arts here-IMHO.

 

[Ninebird8]

When I got to Leung Shum in 1983, I found out that Cynthia actually had trained in Ying Jow from 1978 to 1982 to improve her hand skills, and I believe that might have been when she met Ernie. By the way, since Ray McCallum was mentioned, I had the honor of growing up in Dallas and when I started kung fu in 1977-78, Ray/Billy Jackson/Tim Kirby were all former Demetrius "The Greek" Havanas students. I had the honor and pain of going to their school in Dallas sometimes and learning from all of them. Tim use to judge me in fighting and forms during tournaments in the early 80s before I moved from Dallas to NYC. Walt Mason, Allen Steen, Skipper Mullins, although not kung fu all these guys were great fighters! As far as Linda, she is still teaching here in Houston and still a baaadddd female fighter! LOL! What happened to Arlene? Did she finish law school? Sorry to digress from the topic, just interested in people we all looked up to, no matter what the style. Cheryl Wheeler was also quite good, along with Blinky Rodriguez's sister, etc.

XMA is good for what it is, but it is like modern wushu to me. Wushu, back in the day with Anthony Chan, Kenny Perez, Keith Hirabayshi, Gary Toy, etc. was an exciting thing with very good CMA incorporated along with the acrobatics. Even the animal forms were decent. Nick Gracenin was especially awesome with his drunkard sword and forms!! All these people could also fight! But modern wushu, with its emascalated new rules, and XMA, are now shadows in my opinion. However, I do believe they are excellent physical training for self defense based martial arts and for training in the basics.

To all, I do not feel old right now, but after all these names mentioned, I do feel very experienced!!! LOL! God bless our teachers in this New Year! And for putting up with us all these years, now it is our turn to torture our students, LOL!!!

 

[BrandonLucas]

To throw my $.01 in the mix:

If anyone here has not seen Gymkata, go rent it or buy it now. It's a super-cheesy movie, but it makes the point.

It stars Kurt Thomas, the 1986(?) Olympic Gold Medalist in Gymnastics, who is sent on a mission to save his father.

The slogan for the movie is "The thrill of Gymnastics, the kill of Karate".

If you watch that movie, it's a great reference for XMA discussions. Now, Kurt Thomas didn't have any MA background before this movie, but he was an excellent gymnast, so he knew how to position his body to perform the techniques to look right. Would it have been effective in a real fight? Likely, no.

Now, I do realize that alot of the XMA'ists out there have a background in some TMA. And that's all well and good. And I think that most of the XMA'ists out there would argue that they wouldn't use any XMA techniques in a real fight...but that doesn't mean that they aren't good fighters.

I don't like XMA for the simple reason that it's like false advertisement for martial arts. It's what you see in the movies, and when some people sign up for a TMA, they expect to see what is in the movies. (This isn't for all people, but I have seen some people come into TKD class expecting to see the blackbelts flipping in class).

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: There's nothing "martial" about XMA. And I'm quite sure that most of the people who practice XMA know this...but the problem is that the name implies that it is a form of martial arts, and the general public isn't going to know the difference.

 

[Jimi]

I do not hate XMA's. I do recognize their talent for gymnastics such as back flips & Caporea handstand kicks etc... These skills are entertaining no doubt. I just have issue with some aspects of XMA when it comes to actual knowledge of emptyhand & weapon skills and representing themselves as Masters or Instructors of MARTIAL ARTS. I posted a long while back argueing with Andrew Green about a video by an XMAer entitled "Swordsmanship" in which a 17 yr old wearing a Hakama flipped a training Katana as his "Swordsmanship" instruction. That is cool looking majorette skills, but absolutely not "Swordsmanship" by any real Kendo, Kenjustu or Iaido Instructors definition. XMA has talented young athletes but from what I have seen they "As a whole" do not perform what is MARTIAL (As Andrew green has stated, it only performance) but then covet the titles of "Karate or Weapons Grand Championships" There is a divide between Traditional & Extreme MA practioners, I would just like to see a clearer understanding of what XMAers have truely been trained in, emptyhand or weapons. I have been offended by those in MA Tournaments who demo weapons like Nunchaku, Sai (Insert Okinawan Weapon) and obviously do not understand its most basic of techniques, but use the excotic weapons look to get attention while backflipping & cartwheeling. This stuff would have my first instructor rolling in his grave. Tournamnets with seperate divisions for traditional forms then extreme forms, I have no issue with. Keep in mind that most who compete with XMA will try to go on to a Movie Career or a commercial MALL SCHOOL OWNERSHIP and will not continue to learn or train the proper traditional skills that some have already learned. I agree that this was kinda born from open musical & creative forms divisions where eveything is more about the flash, ya know stars & stripes Gi's and forms showing great kicking dexterity like "Silver Bullet" to the William Tell Overture. So be it. I would be surprised if any XMAers were to have the knowledge to compete in traditional forms & fighting and win as well. If they already to, then more power to them. For those who can only compete using an XMA form, let them flip, the movies need the next Cody Banks or Shark Boy.