When Martial Arts was called Montu Arts and Nubian Wrestling (Article)

[ATACX GYM]

"It is reasonable to think that the Egyptians subjugated wrestling tribes like the Nuba. African wrestling champions were taken from their villages and organized into a regiment to wrestle in the Pharoah’s tribute games. " Cut from the linked article. This is a reasonable assumption. However ,there is another possibility. In the beginning of the article it states Wrestling was extremely popular with the ancient Egyptians, judging by the frequency with which the sport appears in Egyptian art.(2) There are a host of wrestling scenes which first appear in the Old Kingdom tomb of Ptahhotep (2300 B.C.) through the time of the New Kingdom (2000-1085 B.C.). Some of the most interesting scenes show foreigners wrestling against the Egyptians. Nubian wrestlers appear at least five times in Egyptian art. Our information about ancient Nubian wrestling is dependent on these glimpses in Egyptian iconography together with a late description found in Heliodorus’ Aithiopica.

So, the proof of ancient Nubian wrestling is dependant on Egyptian carvings which show Nubian wrestlers. Is it not also possible that as the Egyptians took Nubians as slaves, that they may have taught them wrestling , for the entertainment of the Egyptians? That runaway slaves returned to their homeland and taught wrestling to their tribesman? I don't see enough information to cancel out one possibility or the other.

Here we may have a real confusion of terms. Egypt is to Ethiopia what California is to the USA...at least at first and for quite some time. Ethiopia was first,and Egypt was a part of her empire...not the other way around. Egypt...which got its name from the ancient Black African Pharoah Menes,whom the Greeks Aigyptos,which name was corrupted over the centuries into EGYPT...owes her population (Black African) her Pharoahnic system,and all of her seminal distinctions to Ethiopia.In ancient times this knowledge was common and the kinship between Egypt and Ethiopia was a given.Oftentimes,the term Nuba was used to refer to Ethiopia all the way to what is now Nubia and even more...because apparently ancient records have long recorded that the Ethiopian empire spread pretty much through that whole area of Africa until its massive size broke up until smaller but still stellar empires and states.

So basically we have members of what was once a massive single empire battling amongst themselves for supremacy and engaging in trade.They're effectively cousins warring with cousins...very much like say the French warring with the English.

 

[Josh Oakley]

So, trying to take this back to the OP, thrugh all of this IS interesting, even if this martial art is the oldest DOCUMENTED martial art, there are two problems: possible existence of earlier martial arts, and necessary causal indicators. Even looking at the article, if the Egyptians conquered the guys who taught them martial arts, then the egyptians already HAD a martial art, and decided they should work their ground game. There is no history stating "and sinanju begat montu arts. Montu arts begat Hindu wrestling. Hindu wrestling begat shaolin..." And so on. This is a version of a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Even if an art predates another art, it is not NECESSARILY the cause of the new art.

 

[ATACX GYM]

So, trying to take this back to the OP, thrugh all of this IS interesting, even if this martial art is the oldest DOCUMENTED martial art, there are two problems: possible existence of earlier martial arts, and necessary causal indicators. Even looking at the article, if the Egyptians conquered the guys who taught them martial arts, then the egyptians already HAD a martial art, and decided they should work their ground game. There is no history stating "and sinanju begat montu arts. Montu arts begat Hindu wrestling. Hindu wrestling begat shaolin..." And so on. This is a version of a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Even if an art predates another art, it is not NECESSARILY the cause of the new art.

Agreed to a large degree.I think that there will probably never be documentation that we can find that will provide ironclad proof that the ancient African arts necessarily and definitely gave birth to all other martial arts in the way and form that you mentioned above,i.e." Sinanju begat montu arts..." etc. I think that the ancient cultures and people probably didn't feel the need to rigorously document these matters for those of us millenia in the future in a way that we would appreciate and grasp,nor could they accurately forecast the turn of events that leads to our "modern" world. If such proof existed...and it probably did,insofar as the lineage of one master teaching student "x" and whatnot...it's probably been lost permanently in the shrouds and throes of very remote antiquity.

I would be quite pleased (as a starting point leading eventually and hopefully to the uncovering of the aforementioned facts that at this point are beyond us) with the worldwide acknowledgement of the anteriority and effectiveness of the ancient African martial arts,their appreciation as well as their cultivation expansion and integration into our martial endeavors here and now.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Agreed to a large degree.I think that there will probably never be documentation that we can find that will provide ironclad proof that the ancient African arts necessarily and definitely gave birth to all other martial arts in the way and form that you mentioned above,i.e." Sinanju begat montu arts..." etc. I think that the ancient cultures and people probably didn't feel the need to rigorously document these matters for those of us millenia in the future in a way that we would appreciate and grasp,nor could they accurately forecast the turn of events that leads to our "modern" world. If such proof existed...and it probably did,insofar as the lineage of one master teaching student "x" and whatnot...it's probably been lost permanently in the shrouds and throes of very remote antiquity.I would be quite pleased (as a starting point leading eventually and hopefully to the uncovering of the aforementioned facts that at this point are beyond us) with the worldwide acknowledgement of the anteriority and effectiveness of the ancient African martial arts,their appreciation as well as their cultivation expansion and integration into our martial endeavors here and now.

While I will agree that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, it is certainly not the evidence of presence. If these "facts" are currently beyond us, they are not facts. They are speculation. To remain intellectually honest, one must also remain agnostic about these postulates.

 

[frank raud]

While I will agree that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, it is certainly not the evidence of presence. If these "facts" are currently beyond us, they are not facts. They are speculation. To remain intellectually honest, one must also remain agnostic about these postulates.

Ugh. Him say with nice words what I try to say earlier. Mongo not good with fancy words. I would be curious to see these arts being taught to a wider audience, and used in an open competition atmosphere to guage their effectiveness. Until such time, they will remain an oddity, much like many warrior arts from many cultures around the world.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

I hate to break it to you guys, but the origin of all martial arts systems is Korea. The original "Sun Source" of all marital arts is Sinanju. If you don't like that fact, take it up with the current Master.

I can say that that's a myth that was programmed into you. That's what happened when I was starting training at a local dojo 7 years ago, when I was taught that Bodhidharma invented the Martial Arts and traveled from India to China in the 500's CE and taught the monks Martial Arts and practices of Zen Buddhism. Therefore, Martial Arts originated in India, then transported to China, then Okinawa, then Japan, Korea, and then North America. That's the myth I didn't make sense with me. So I went on to dig into Historical facts of the fighting systems, instead of taking a bogus story.

 

[geezer]

I can say that that's a myth that was programmed into you....

Excuse me, but wasn't Bill joking when he posted that?

 

[clfsean]

I can say that that's a myth that was programmed into you. That's what happened when I was starting training at a local dojo 7 years ago, when I was taught that Bodhidharma invented the Martial Arts and traveled from India to China in the 500's CE and taught the monks Martial Arts and practices of Zen Buddhism. Therefore, Martial Arts originated in India, then transported to China, then Okinawa, then Japan, Korea, and then North America. That's the myth I didn't make sense with me. So I went on to dig into Historical facts of the fighting systems, instead of taking a bogus story.

Well then there's a pretty good chance you were taught incorrectly to begin with.

Bodhidharma didn't "invent" anything. He brought with him what he was taught from an early age, being from the Warrior Caste of India. He taught a series of exercises at the Songshan Temple. The monks then combined that with other skills they learned as time went by to have it evolve continuously.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

Excuse me, but wasn't Bill joking when he posted that?

I'm don't know, I can't tell. If he was said Martial Arts was invented by Chuck Norris, then I would've known that he was joking.

 

[Blindside]

I'm don't know, I can't tell. If he was said Martial Arts was invented by Chuck Norris, then I would've known that he was joking.

Sinanju is a reference to a paperback series called "the Destroyer," where it is the ultimate martial art. Shame on you for not reading pulp fiction.

 

[jks9199]

I can say that that's a myth that was programmed into you. That's what happened when I was starting training at a local dojo 7 years ago, when I was taught that Bodhidharma invented the Martial Arts and traveled from India to China in the 500's CE and taught the monks Martial Arts and practices of Zen Buddhism. Therefore, Martial Arts originated in India, then transported to China, then Okinawa, then Japan, Korea, and then North America. That's the myth I didn't make sense with me. So I went on to dig into Historical facts of the fighting systems, instead of taking a bogus story.

First... Sinanju.

Second... Most people accept that the Bodhidharma story is a myth, I think. There may be some underlying truth, but that's all. It's definitely wrong to even suggest that all martial arts derived from India via China. There is no one origin for martial arts. Every culture answers the questions of "how do I survive?" and "how do I keep that guy from killing me?" in their own way, reflecting their environment and beliefs. The first "martial art" was probably Grog-fu -- because Grog turned out to be better at bashing other folks than they were at bashing him -- and then he figured out a way to show his buddies.

Were there African martial arts? Yes, obviously and clearly. Did they inspire others? Maybe some, but certainly not all. Again -- there simply is no one underlying source.

 

[Josh Oakley]

First... Sinanju.Second... Most people accept that the Bodhidharma story is a myth, I think. There may be some underlying truth, but that's all. It's definitely wrong to even suggest that all martial arts derived from India via China. There is no one origin for martial arts. Every culture answers the questions of "how do I survive?" and "how do I keep that guy from killing me?" in their own way, reflecting their environment and beliefs. The first "martial art" was probably Grog-fu -- because Grog turned out to be better at bashing other folks than they were at bashing him -- and then he figured out a way to show his buddies. Were there African martial arts? Yes, obviously and clearly. Did they inspire others? Maybe some, but certainly not all. Again -- there simply is no one underlying source.

Except of course for Sinanju.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Excuse me, but wasn't Bill joking when he posted that?

Bill might have been joking, but myths like these really DO get drilled into a number of people.

 

[frank raud]

I can say that that's a myth that was programmed into you. That's what happened when I was starting training at a local dojo 7 years ago, when I was taught that Bodhidharma invented the Martial Arts and traveled from India to China in the 500's CE and taught the monks Martial Arts and practices of Zen Buddhism. Therefore, Martial Arts originated in India, then transported to China, then Okinawa, then Japan, Korea, and then North America. That's the myth I didn't make sense with me. So I went on to dig into Historical facts of the fighting systems, instead of taking a bogus story.

So, you don't believe it is possible that martial arts were developed in one country(India), then transported to other countries, but you believe that martial arts were developed on one continent(Africa)and transported from there?

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

So, you don't believe it is possible that martial arts were developed in one country(India), then transported to other countries, but you believe that martial arts were developed on one continent(Africa)and transported from there?

Correct. Human civilization began in Eastern Africa therefore indigenous fighting systems originated there.

 

[frank raud]

Correct. Human civilization began in Eastern Africa therefore indigenous fighting systems originated there.

Do you have anything that shows that the Montu arts are in fact the seminal martial arts(that all other arts developed from)? Or are you working from the assumption that as these are the oldest arts that you have found information about(fairly cryptic and second hand information at that), that every other development in martial arts is an enhancement\evolution of the African arts?


sem·i·nal
(s

m

-n

l) adj.
3. Highly influential in an original way; constituting or providing a basis for further development: a seminal idea in the creation of a new theory.

---

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

To further add to it. Martial Art is derived from Mars the Roman God of War son of Jupiter (which in Greek it is Ares son of Zeus Pater). Therefore Mars is not worshipped in India by the Hindu faith. It is important to understand language or else we are going to miss it. So there is no way that Martial Arts invented during the dark ages whatsoever.

The Greeks were educated from the African people. The first library was built in Egypt. The Greek pantheon of Gods were influence by Egyptian Gods. The Egyptian diety of warfare Montu was changed to Ares by the Greeks and then changed to Mars by the Romans.

 

[frank raud]

To further add to it. Martial Art is derived from Mars the Roman God of War son of Jupiter (which in Greek it is Ares son of Zeus Pater). Therefore Mars is not worshipped in India by the Hindu faith. It is important to understand language or else we are going to miss it. So there is no way that Martial Arts invented during the dark ages whatsoever.

The Greeks were educated from the African people. The first library was built in Egypt. The Greek pantheon of Gods were influence by Egyptian Gods. The Egyptian diety of warfare Montu was changed to Ares by the Greeks and then changed to Mars by the Romans.

Martial Arts are called martial arts in the western world, because of the huge influence of the Roman empire in defining Westerners as a people. It is the equivalent of calling similar arts in India by the name of Kali, Goddess of war. I will claim ignorance of the appropriate term in Sanskrit, Hindi, or whichever language was being used on the Indian continent at the time of the Bodhiharma story, but I wouldn't expect them to use Western terminology for whichever native arts they were practicing. Of course, I also wouldn't expect pre-Egyptian civilization Africans to refer to their art as Nubian wrestling. Nor would I expect them to name their arts after an Egyptian god.

 

[frank raud]

To further add to it. Martial Art is derived from Mars the Roman God of War son of Jupiter (which in Greek it is Ares son of Zeus Pater). Therefore Mars is not worshipped in India by the Hindu faith. It is important to understand language or else we are going to miss it. So there is no way that Martial Arts invented during the dark ages whatsoever.

The Greeks were educated from the African people. The first library was built in Egypt. The Greek pantheon of Gods were influence by Egyptian Gods. The Egyptian diety of warfare Montu was changed to Ares by the Greeks and then changed to Mars by the Romans.

Why would anyone expect someone of the Hindu faith to worship Mars? I am fairly certain in the statement could be made of Buddhists,Christians, Muslims and Jews. Are you aware of any religion that is so all inclusive in its beliefs that all foriegn dieties throughout the millenia are accepted and worshipped?

 

[frank raud]

If I am reading this correctly, I have a few issues with this, and so should Mr. Jedi. If other civilizations had PREEXISTING BUT LARGELY RUDIMENTARY martial arts, then it becomes incredibly difficult to state that all arts come from Africa. Please correct me if I am wrong.

What information do you have that the African arts were superior/more advanced than the PREEXISTING BUT LARGELY RUDIMENTARY martial arts ?