when involved in a real fight do you block or just go heads up

[BLACK LION]

I understand where you're coming from, but it's asinine to think that you can always get on the inside arc of a swinging blunt object... or realize that a knife attack is coming...

Chances are, you won't see the knife coming... Or the bat swinging... You're just not that quick.

Why not learn to block? If not to supplement your existing art? It won't hurt to know those things. Believe me, I used to think that I'd be quick enough to dodge objects. Then I got hit by a blunt object and realized that no matter how I trained, or how fast I got, I can still get hit by something blunt or sharp if my opponent gets the drop on me.

I advise to learn more, and become a better fighter by knowing more.

I learned to block for 20 years and I am pretty damn good at it... I am not in the business of "defense" any more and I do not feel that trying to block an overhand right from a 300lb man is a feasible plan.... or a swinging bat or what have you... evasion or egression is a prime choice if aggression is not... thats just me.
I understand a knife is "felt not seen" but I also can access a wide variety of info on "defensive wounds" in which you can see what happens when you "block" a knife. I am not going to try to stop a crowbar with my arm or even a knife for that matter... whats important to me is stopping the driving force intent on putting that tool into me and that is the brain of the attacker... It is my primary goal to shut off his brain or effect injury or trauma to the body and central nervous system...in this case.. I am the one injuring rather than being injured and I am essentially in control...

 

[Nolerama]

It is my primary goal to shut off his brain or effect injury or trauma to the body and central nervous system...in this case.. I am the one injuring rather than being injured and I am essentially in control...

Understandable.

But I don't train MAs or SD in that respect. I used to, but that kept me in a Fear mentality. That gets in the way of training IMHO.

Look at the percentages, you'll still never be 100% fast/powerful/offensive enough to counter everything in a fight, or at the very least damage someone's nervous system immediately. It's nice to say you've trained to block for 20 years and prefer to be on the offense, but I think it's irresponsible to say that in an open forum, and state that pure offense is the key to winning a street fight. There are a lot of folks here on different levels of their MA journey who may be misguided by your statements, both in your opinion of blocking in general, and your preferred offensive stature in a fight, which, considering today's sue-happy culture, places you in a highly liable position.

However, you postulate a Worst Case Scenario where someone has a knife/bat/etc, and immediately place yourself outside of it, assuming that you'll be fast/strong enough to beat your opponent is neither fair as an assumption, or realistic to yourself.

I'm a big believer in covering your bases. And one technique doesn't rule... For that matter, one range doesn't rule. A well-rounded fighter is much better than a one/two/ even three-trick pony. Am I wrong in saying this?

 

[BLACK LION]

Its not about fear... its about preparation for the worst.

I dont have to be faster-stronger-bigger to effect injury.
I just need to get there and get it done... it really is just that simple...

No one on here or anywhere should be "misguided" because of a post... if anything it affords them the oppty to see a different angle which most may not approach or even shake a stick at... then find thier own answers in the real world.

In my mind defense puts me in a reaction state and I want to be in an action state. I have been assaulted plenty of times to know the difference. All of those times there was more than 2 threats.

My goal is to get to them before they get to me and if I cant get there first then I fordamn sure wont stop till I do get there... stabbed-shot-bludgeoned it doesnt matter. If its a situation in which physicality can be avoided, which most situations are then negotiation is paramount...or just subtracting oneself from the picture alltogether... If a man pushes me I wont push him back... am just socializing with monkey politics... If a man swings at me or kicks at me... same thing. I can easily avoid situations like that by not conforming to whatever thier social interaction is...I am not going to get into a wrestling match or punch out over a spilled beer or a cut off on the road... I understand that all actions short of intentional injury and trauma is social and I can be easily subtracted with a little tact.

 

[Nolerama]

Its not about fear... its about preparation for the worst.

I dont have to be faster-stronger-bigger to effect injury.
I just need to get there and get it done... it really is just that simple...

It's never that simple. You're thinking about a dream situation where most of the odds are stacked against you. How is that training for SD?

No one on here or anywhere should be "misguided" because of a post... if anything it affords them the oppty to see a different angle which most may not approach or even shake a stick at... then find thier own answers in the real world.

Well, I believe your stance on blocking is completely wrong, but I really just wanted to be polite. I know this through personal experience through real street fights and live training. Blocking is an effective tool in fighting.

In my mind defense puts me in a reaction state and I want to be in an action state. I have been assaulted plenty of times to know the difference. All of those times there was more than 2 threats.

The What If's get in the way of that statement. What if they get the drop on you? What if you're stunned? You're not superman. You're human, and can succumb to weaknesses in your own emotional state or training. What's your Plan B if they overcome you?

My goal is to get to them before they get to me and if I cant get there first then I fordamn sure wont stop till I do get there... stabbed-shot-bludgeoned it doesnt matter. If its a situation in which physicality can be avoided, which most situations are then negotiation is paramount...or just subtracting oneself from the picture alltogether... If a man pushes me I wont push him back... am just socializing with monkey politics... If a man swings at me or kicks at me... same thing. I can easily avoid situations like that by not conforming to whatever thier social interaction is...I am not going to get into a wrestling match or punch out over a spilled beer or a cut off on the road... I understand that all actions short of intentional injury and trauma is social and I can be easily subtracted with a little tact.

So... You won't face open confrontation, but will "take them out" before they take you out? I don't see your connection or logic in this, and all I can sense is emotion in your view of self defense, which places you in a precarious position and more than likely opens you up to more confrontations due to your attitude... More than you'd probably like to admit to.

We're talking about blocking, and the importance of it. I personally believe it's essential to block. Pacifists can block. Toddlers can block. Block an get away. That's a viable SD situation.

And you speak out against that.

That's why I call your statement irresponsible, and that some of your statements lean towards a Fear mindset. Does that reflect in your training?

 

[BLACK LION]

You are entitled to your own convictions and obviously they are not mine.

Do not guage my convictions as irresponsible simply becuase you do not understand them.

You seem to be assuming many things and at the same time clouding it with a bunch of what if and the possibilities of it not going my way or whatever... that to me is the "comfort of denial" which I am no longer afforded.
Its my job as a warrior to make it go my way... wether on the battlefield or in a dark alley... I cannot afford the luxury of doubt and I cannot afford the luxury of second guessing what I am there to do.
Get it done and move on. it really is just that simple...if I want it to be.

I am also an armed forces veteran and the do or die mentality is hardwired. You cant take it away from me by trying to confuse the simplicity in it. Its purpose perception and projection plain and simple...
If I am put in a position to complete a task there is no excuse...just get it done or die trying...

 

[BLACK LION]

Now back to our regulalry scheduled program...

 

[suicide]

:angel:

 

[Nolerama]

It keeps coming back to you in terms of your comfort level with your martial prowess.

And it doesn't matter if you say you're a member of the armed services.

Simply put: saying blocking isn't essential is plain irresponsible and keeps you well within your own box. What I'm trying to do is help you out and see beyond the black and white. If some frat boy pushes you in a bar and you take him out with lethal-esque force? Come on. That's irresponsible.

Someone gets mad at a softball game and pokes you with the bat, then you cause irreparable brain damage? That's irresponsible.

You haven't revealed a gray area in your logic. And please, there are plenty of military members out there who understand that there are varying degrees of contact level, and damage level, depending on the situation. Using the military as an excuse to not have a gray area is simply...

Irresponsible.

 

[Deaf Smith]

When I had fights in high school, before I ever got even near the martial arts or tournaments, I just came in swinging. Won them all, but then the other guys were nit-wits to (just like I was.)

Oh yea, I'll block if I see it coming. But a wise fighter, in a self defense situation, hits first, hit's hard, and keeps hitting.

Deaf

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

...I do not feel that trying to block an overhand right from a 300lb man is a feasible plan....

.
Unless of course your 'block' is actually a strike, as in karate styles, but that changes the dynamic from one of pure defensive blocking to 'attacking' the attacker's limb.

...or a swinging bat or what have you...

Total agreement here. Blocks against objects such as bats or crowbars should only be blocked or parried by an unarmed person if there is no other recourse. The kind of injury that one can sustain to their arm from blocking a baseball bat at full swing is such that it is not equitable. As you say, avoidance and evasion are better tools against weapons of this nature.

If I am in a position where retreat is not an option, I will get inside of the arc (before he has a chance to swing, or after dodging a swing) and get my hands on the attacker's hands and the haft of the weapon. Now, I can do a number of things.

I can try to use the weapon against him by breaking his wrist in the process of taking it from him, or use the weapon for leverage to bar and break his arm.

I can hook his leg and put him on the ground and then make my escape. Should I wind up with the weapon in my hands as a bonus, I can then turn it on him to make sure that he is immobilized.

I can occupy his hands and attention with trying to maintain control of the weapon while I kick the crap out of his knees, groin, or floating ribs (knees in that case).

Daniel

 

[Rich Parsons]

only place ive really used blocks is in sparring , in a real fight all im really trying to do is place that one hitter quitter %-}

Well for those that I can sit back and side step or pass and make look bad, I do not consider a real fight. They might be in a real fight, but I am not.

For those that I can convince with words it is better to not even start is also not a real fight.

For me a real fight usually begins as I have been hit from behind, stabbed in a crowd or the level of threat has risen by weapon or numbers or both. In this case I have no problems blocking and passing and also striking back as case maybe.

 

[chinto]

look a parry or evasion is a form of block, but to walk in and take a shot from a blunt object or blade would be stupid. either way a block is a valid technique and does work. soft blocks are effectively parries, and i do prefer them. but to state that you will not block but just go in is ridiculous on the face of it.

but hay say what you want, do as you wish. you may live or die as you wish, no skin of my nose either way.

 

[MJS]

only place ive really used blocks is in sparring , in a real fight all im really trying to do is place that one hitter quitter %-}

For me, I like to view a block as a strike as well. Not only am I going to redirect that attack, but my goal is to also punish the arm. As for the question....I'm going to do whatever I can to avoid being hit. Parries, blocks, bob/weave, etc, all those things are tools in the box.

Additionally, I'm not a fan of the 1 hit, 1 kill mentality. Not saying that it hasnt happened or cant happen, but that shot that we throw that we think is going to get the KO, may not. That being said, you're going to have to protect yourself in some fashion to get in for those hits. It may take a series of shots, each setting the other one up, to finally get the result that we want.

 

[MJS]

What is being defined as a real fight???
Are we talking a freak with a crowbar or some jerk pissed of becuase I took his parking spot.

If we are talking about someone intent on injuring me then I have to get to them first... so there will be no blocking involved(unless its a strike) just me charging to get the injuries going in my favor first.

So basically what you're saying is, is that your goal is to just hopefully overwhelm them enough with strikes? I'm going to assume that you still put some caution in doing this, and dont just come in swinging like some uncontrolled wildman. Of course, if you're dealing with a weapon, are you saying that you dont take that into consideration? In other words, do you work to gain any control of that weapon arm?

I never posture up. I always assume a neutral position with palms faced away from me and hands no higher than my chin and no lower than my ribs.

I like this. So much can be done from here.

 

[MJS]

Here we go again.
Why dont you try asking without displaying an overtone of assumption in your reply about my training.

If you train to "block" blunt objects or sharp ones then thats your choice.
I disagree completely in the sense that there is great danger in training against tools in that matter... a sort of "deflection" would be in order and only if contact with the tool is iminent....
If a person pulls a knife...I am not going to wait for him to pick a part of my meat and start stabbing... I am going to get in on him and shut him off or I am going to evade him and escape... that all depends on whats at stake... I will run away and leave my wallet... but I will not leave another person to meet thier fate...
If a person decides to turn me into chum with a bat... I can get inside the arc of the swing and take him out or I can evade and escape... I dont want to dance around outside while hes picking parts of me to pommel...



No one said anything about "evading" or "escape"...
of course its better to be outside the arc on either but its also good to beinside the arc on blunt objects but not with sharp ones... with firearms being inside or behind the muzzle is paramount rather than being in front or beyond it (unless you are far away and there is cover)...

tools are always included in my training becuase its part of the trade...
I carry tools/labor saving devices everyday.

Block and counter strike. Looks pretty effective to me. I also disagree that it seems that you don't do much in the way on control of the weapon. Sure, its fine to want to get in on someone with a knife, however, depending on the situation, rushing right in, may not be the best thing to do. Seems like you're going on the assumption that you will be able to act before the person with the knife does anything. Again, situation depending, that may work, but if you cant, you better be prepared to control and/or deflect that weapon, and then counter strike.

 

[MJS]

[/b]It's never that simple. You're thinking about a dream situation where most of the odds are stacked against you. How is that training for SD?

I was thinking the same thing. Sure, we always want to hope that we can do a,b,c and d, but it doesnt always work that way.

Well, I believe your stance on blocking is completely wrong, but I really just wanted to be polite. I know this through personal experience through real street fights and live training. Blocking is an effective tool in fighting.

Agreed.

The What If's get in the way of that statement. What if they get the drop on you? What if you're stunned? You're not superman. You're human, and can succumb to weaknesses in your own emotional state or training. What's your Plan B if they overcome you?

IMO, I don't think he has a plan B. IMO, it seems as if he is assuming that things will go textbook, according to HIS plan. It also seems like he is willing to take many collateral damage shots, to get his goal. So, when faced with a blade, I'm getting the impression that he will rush in, and hope to overwhelm the bad guy. But what about all those shots from the BG? I mean, who the hell is going to stand there, with a weapon, and not use it?

So... You won't face open confrontation, but will "take them out" before they take you out? I don't see your connection or logic in this, and all I can sense is emotion in your view of self defense, which places you in a precarious position and more than likely opens you up to more confrontations due to your attitude... More than you'd probably like to admit to.

I didn't see an answer to this, and IMO, I dont think you will either.

We're talking about blocking, and the importance of it. I personally believe it's essential to block. Pacifists can block. Toddlers can block. Block an get away. That's a viable SD situation.

And you speak out against that.

That's why I call your statement irresponsible, and that some of your statements lean towards a Fear mindset. Does that reflect in your training?

IMO, blocking is just another tool in the box. I'm not throwing it out, because someone doesnt hold much faith in it.

 

[MJS]

My weapon defenses normally contain a block/deflection and simultaneous counter strike. Someone stirkes down with an icepick type attack to the head, standing there and doing an upward block is IMO foolish, due to the fact that a) there isn't any control, b) the opponent will most likely continue to slice down, cutting your arm, c) you're not doing anything to take his attention off of the initial attack.

I think that in some cases here, there is confusion between the block and a redirection.

 

[chinto]

My weapon defenses normally contain a block/deflection and simultaneous counter strike. Someone stirkes down with an icepick type attack to the head, standing there and doing an upward block is IMO foolish, due to the fact that a) there isn't any control, b) the opponent will most likely continue to slice down, cutting your arm, c) you're not doing anything to take his attention off of the initial attack.

I think that in some cases here, there is confusion between the block and a redirection.

true, and controlling the weapon is important in such encounters. but then each must decide their own actions, and live or die by them.

Lion has not made his case well at all here. I do not know if he is just not articulating the argument at all well, or just does not understand the concepts .. Either way he, as all of us, will live or die by our actions and choices.

 

[BLACK LION]

Controling or shutting down the true weapon is the highest priority...thats the brain... the other weapon is equally important...thats the human body...

Snap on tools or labor saving devices are just that...harmless objects that without an able body and intent brain behind it are otherwise useless or in-animate....
Take out the brain or central nervous system behind the tool and poof... no tool.
Take out the body or physiological function behind the tool and poof... no tool.
It is more important for me to concentrate on the real weapon than otherwise harmless tool in between.

This has nothing to do with some theoretical bs that looks good on paper or a diagram... Please stop eluding to that or stating that this is what my posts or e-pinions consist of... I do my homework and apply it real life training...agree or disagree that does not make it an untruth....

 

[BLACK LION]

So basically what you're saying is, is that your goal is to just hopefully overwhelm them enough with strikes? I'm going to assume that you still put some caution in doing this, and dont just come in swinging like some uncontrolled wildman. Of course, if you're dealing with a weapon, are you saying that you dont take that into consideration? In other words, do you work to gain any control of that weapon arm?



I like this. So much can be done from here.

No... my goal is to overwhelm thier operating system with injuries.
No... I dont work to gain control of the "weapon arm"... I want the brain behind it or the physiological process behind it... If an injury affords me the "control" of thier tool or device then so be it... it normally ends up that way anyway...
If a man sticks a knife in my spine, the last thing I want to try is to control the "weapon arm"... If a man puts a gun in my face, the last thing I want to do is wrestle for control... too many factors that come into play here... size -strength-chemical additives etc..
a convict, fresh out of the pennitentiary is not going to approach you in a way that there is going to be some wrestling for control of the tool... thats a social reaction in my book. You are looking at the tool as the real threat rather than the brain and body behind it so rather than shut them off is becomes dancing with the stars for the tool... read the after action reports from numerous sources... big mistake.

You fight violence with 3x the violence.... you dont try to duel and dance like some mating ritual.

And all this gum flapping about me like im some retard in the corner needs to stop. I type an e-pinion based on the info and content provided... that doesnt mean lets play "discredit the guy that we dont think makes sense".
Warriors do not meet up on the net to hash out differences. They take care of any discrepancies in the field. I am in Balboa Park/San Diego ca. every sunday @ 11am training "what works" and "what doesnt"...any man woman or child is welcome to come join and dispell any bs free of charge... we have a plethora of tools and devices on hand to accomplish that.
Articulation is accomplished by action in which I am more than willing and capable...

RESPECTFULLY
Broderick