shauntkd
White Belt
I was just wondering when after you test for 4th dan that you are allowed to call yourself a master? Is it when you get your certificate or right after the test?
When do you call yourself a master?
- Thread starter shauntkd
- Start date
It is up to the Instructor that test you but in most cases it is upon recieving your Kukkiwon certificate.
Just my opinion.
I don't know about the WTF - in the ITF (which is the tradition my association follows) you're not a master instructor until VII Dan - at which point you switch from sahbum (instructor) to sahhyum (master instructor); the title switch would occur after your promotion, not after the test - although at that level, they often happen on the same day; the certificate could take a while, but the actual promotion comes from your instructor and testing instructor, who will often (but not always) tell people who are testing at that level if they passed at the end of the testing.
Not a practitioner of TKD, but in general why not just let others call you master. If some still call you Mr then so be it. Over time the title will become acknowledged.
:asian:
A certificate is a piece of paper. The question is, have these people been told they passed, either by their instructor or the testing instructor/board? I didn't receive my certificate for IV Dan for several months after I tested - it's our tradition to present certificates at major events - but the testing instructor told my instructor I had passed, and my instructor promoted me after the testing. Therefore, I was a IV Dan at that point - if we considered IV Dan to be master, I would have been a master (I'm not; in the ITF IV-VI Dan is Expert).
If, however, these people have not been informed, officially, that they have been promoted, then they are indeed jumping the gun by proclaiming themselves to be masters. Not being very familiar with the Kukkiwon, I would go by your organization's rules.
Let me ask you - and I mean this in no way to be negative toward you - why does it matter to you what they call themselves? Does it change your rank? Or theirs? If they are, indeed, not officially masters, then their behavior reflects badly on their integrity - and should they find out, later, that they didn't pass, then it really reflects badly on them. How does it affect you? Does it reflect badly on you personally? On your school? On your organization? If it doesn't affect you personally, but does affect your school and/or organization, then those senior to these people should be attending to this - and if they're not, then you should address your questions to them, as they are the only ones who can tell you what is appropriate for your school/organization. We can only speculate based on our experiences elsewhere.
If, however, these people have not been informed, officially, that they have been promoted, then they are indeed jumping the gun by proclaiming themselves to be masters. Not being very familiar with the Kukkiwon, I would go by your organization's rules.
Let me ask you - and I mean this in no way to be negative toward you - why does it matter to you what they call themselves? Does it change your rank? Or theirs? If they are, indeed, not officially masters, then their behavior reflects badly on their integrity - and should they find out, later, that they didn't pass, then it really reflects badly on them. How does it affect you? Does it reflect badly on you personally? On your school? On your organization? If it doesn't affect you personally, but does affect your school and/or organization, then those senior to these people should be attending to this - and if they're not, then you should address your questions to them, as they are the only ones who can tell you what is appropriate for your school/organization. We can only speculate based on our experiences elsewhere.
Some folks are REALLY hung up on titles...
DArnold
Purple Belt
The only way to answer your question is with a question:
How does your organization veiw the difference between a test and a promotion. (Are they two seperate things?)
- Because you test, does that lock in that you have passed?
- Does anyone ever fail
However, on many occasions a test board will come prepared and the candidate will not pass, or have to redo something and they will not get promoted that day!
Your answer is based upon your Organizations policys toward promotions
I also thought 5th dan in the WTF was master.
Did this change to 4th?
Let us know what you find out.
I do not know about WTF but Kukkiwon is 4th Dan is Master rank, just to answer your question. I understand that WTF does not certified anymore and the only year they did was aroung 1974 I believe.
No longer being in TKD I will speak as an outsider and say that I never call myself master. That is for others to decide if they wish to acknowledge my abilities and knowledge not for me to pin a title on myself because of a piece of paper
If your school has standards for the title go wit them.
Personally? Never. If you decide that you're a master you've just cut yourself off from future learning and set your ego ahead of what's important. Dan Inosanto says "They can't call me a master until I'm dead and buried". If he's the standard then you'll have to be darned good to give yourself those kind of airs.
Personally? Never. If you decide that you're a master you've just cut yourself off from future learning and set your ego ahead of what's important. Dan Inosanto says "They can't call me a master until I'm dead and buried". If he's the standard then you'll have to be darned good to give yourself those kind of airs.
Dave Leverich
Black Belt
Tellner, I love that quote from Guro Inosanto!
My org says at 6th you're eligible for Master, but you still earn that separate from rank in the ATA. In HTF it's 5th, but again I believe it's separate (a year process, Fluffy would know), WTF it's 4th I believe still, ITF it's 6th or 7th.
For myself? Heck, I'm not sure I'd ever call myself Master unless someone asked my title within the organization... and I know I'd feel pretty funny about that heh.
The most amazing masters that I've met, are the most humble people.
My org says at 6th you're eligible for Master, but you still earn that separate from rank in the ATA. In HTF it's 5th, but again I believe it's separate (a year process, Fluffy would know), WTF it's 4th I believe still, ITF it's 6th or 7th.
For myself? Heck, I'm not sure I'd ever call myself Master unless someone asked my title within the organization... and I know I'd feel pretty funny about that heh.
The most amazing masters that I've met, are the most humble people.
Toby
Yellow Belt
Well, I'd say that no one is truely a master at anyting... There's always more knowledge to be gained. Just what I reckon.
You know I could tell you from experience from watching my dad. He says "I teach hapkido" he doesn't say I am a master, have mastered it, whatever. He doesn't even like to wear the dobok with the 5th dan trim. He will call himself Mr. Morton, on several occassions I have heard people call him Master Morton, he said "Nope, I am not a master: x,y, z are but not me.
I workout under a GM and a Master in TKD that also hold master rank in hapkido the same as my dad. Also a 4th dan tkd and hkd. You know if you call these nice gentlemen sir they are happy.
I know by KKW you can be called master at 4th dan. I told our 4th dan this, he is a certified tkd sparring and ring person. Anyway he said he could be called master at one of two times. Promotion to 5th dan, or when he is as good at tkd as GM Hildebrand.
Just to throw in one more example of humble.....on Sunday dec. 10 Derekhkd and a few others tested and passed their 3rd gup tests. We all went out to eat. Well we have a tradition that the lowest ranking belt goes to pay the bill after the money had been collected etc.
I went and paid it, even though I have a dan rank in judo...I had not tested for my 5th gup in hapkido nor my 4th gup in tkd. I figured the whole tabling area was filled with 2nd dans and above with the execption of the 3 who tested and me. So I said, my dan rank is in another school and art. I don't care, everyone finish eating and went and paid.
I workout under a GM and a Master in TKD that also hold master rank in hapkido the same as my dad. Also a 4th dan tkd and hkd. You know if you call these nice gentlemen sir they are happy.
I know by KKW you can be called master at 4th dan. I told our 4th dan this, he is a certified tkd sparring and ring person. Anyway he said he could be called master at one of two times. Promotion to 5th dan, or when he is as good at tkd as GM Hildebrand.
Just to throw in one more example of humble.....on Sunday dec. 10 Derekhkd and a few others tested and passed their 3rd gup tests. We all went out to eat. Well we have a tradition that the lowest ranking belt goes to pay the bill after the money had been collected etc.
I went and paid it, even though I have a dan rank in judo...I had not tested for my 5th gup in hapkido nor my 4th gup in tkd. I figured the whole tabling area was filled with 2nd dans and above with the execption of the 3 who tested and me. So I said, my dan rank is in another school and art. I don't care, everyone finish eating and went and paid.
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
In GB, but suspect it was due to WTF ruling, my instructor held a 4th Dan (master) grade when WTF added a 10th Dan. He was told he had to undertake his 5th Dan to continue using the title 'Master'.
I suppose one would have to ask themself if they have mastered anything that would warrant calling them a master. I reached the rank that would allow me to take on the title a few years back and I have never felt the need or desire to be called anything but Sensei(in Chito-ryu). I will always be a student and so I don't think I will ever be a master.
One thing that most people don't pay attention to is that "master", in MA, does not refer to being a "master" of the art - it refers to being a master instructor, which is, I think, a different issue. Nonetheless, to return more directly to the original question, I'll repeat what I said before - a certificate is a piece of paper; promotions come from my sahbum, and through him, from his sahbum, who is a master instructor - because I have seen him instruct, and he is, indeed a master instructor - but he would be the last person to tell you that he has mastered TKD. Despite a TKD career that spans slightly longer than my life (he started TKD in 1965, the year before I was born) he still continues to seek out more information and improve his understanding of the art he has devoted his life to - which is what makes him such a good instructor, not the piece of paper he has that states his rank.
