Whats your favourite weapon?

[A.R.K.]

GaryM,

I need to clarify a few things in your post, please don't take it personally. First...

The 45 has the well deserved reputation for its incredible stopping power

The .45, like any service caliber is at BEST adequate against human beings based on many factors.

A man can live for up to 9 seconds after being shot in the heart

An individual can live for hours, perhaps days after receiving a shot into or through the heart. About 12 years ago an LAPD officer was shot through the heart with a .357 magnum at close range. She returned fire with her 9mm, killing her attacker. She survived emergency surgery and as far as I know is still on duty today [after a lengthy recovery of course].

William Platt in the 'FBI-Miami massacre' was shot numerous times with one 9mm round nicking the heart. He survived and killed/wounded agents afterwards till he was shot in the head. Which is not a guarentee either.

However the .45 tends to expend most of it's 900 ft lbs into the individual and sort of slams them to the ground hence the reputation for 'stopping' power

The average .45 round does 850 feet per second. To calculate its Ft/lbs of energy you convert the bullet weight from grains [usually 230] into lbs, then multiply by the square of it's velocity and then divide by two gravities [64.32]. The average .45 is lucky to produce 350 ft/lbs of energy per square inch. It is physically impossible for a bullet, enen a rifle bullet in most cases to knock you over. If the individual falls it is a psychological event NOT a physiological event. In order for a bullet to knock someone over it would in turn knock down the shooter because for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.

And energy in the handgun levels is not even worth considering. They don't mean anything till you get up into the high caliber rifles.

The first consideration is function. Does the round function flawlessly in your handgun? The second is penetration. Will the round penetrate to a vital area of the body from any angle? Everything else is a distant third be it caliber, weight, velocity, bullet type etc.

Technopunk,

I would recommend against a Glaser Safety Slug. Even the Magsafe. Yes they do alot of surface damage but they do NOT even come close in real tissue to the required minimum of 12-14 inches. They are lucky to penetrate 4 inches in live tissue, perhaps 6 for the Magsafe.

Most torso shots are ubstructed by outstretched limbs which compounds the problem because of added muscle tissue.

Food for thought gentlemen.

 

[bob919]

actually hollowpoints only expand if they hit bone even if the hit a rib they wont deform that much and as for stopping power some people have the miss conseption that abullet is gonna knock down the attacker and even through him bak several feet if tha did happen you the shooter would also be thrown back several feet unless they were very strong it has been calculated tha a 9mm par round will move a man backwards at a rate of 2" a second not really much i think you'll agree

about 5 years ago a cop shot a criminal 6 times hitting him in the chest gut arms and legs one of which hit the next to the heart, the criminal was still conscious and shooting at the cop before anothe cop knocked out the criminal with the but of his gun

when a bullet is traveling under 1600 fps it will just leave a smalle hole usually not bigger than the bullet itself, explosive bullet woulds usually occur at about 2000+ fps

as far as knocking out someone a baton to the head has a higher chance of success than a bullet to the body

contary to poualar belief the caliber has very little difference

all this said there is no finer weaon for dewfending yourself, just aim for the head

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei

Technopunk,

I would recommend against a Glaser Safety Slug. Even the Magsafe. Yes they do alot of surface damage but they do NOT even come close in real tissue to the required minimum of 12-14 inches. They are lucky to penetrate 4 inches in live tissue, perhaps 6 for the Magsafe.

Most torso shots are ubstructed by outstretched limbs which compounds the problem because of added muscle tissue.

Food for thought gentlemen.

Wow... Really? The only thing I have ever shot with one was a Ham... it turned the Ham "inside out" and seemed to do a lot of damage... I never really considered penetration with the round... thats a damn fine point...

 

[shadowdragon]

Originally posted by Disco
That is a shame. I always pictured Finland as a quiet and peaceful place. Now you have to deal with biker gangs. I'm ashamed that certain (reprehensibly) aspects of the American society have polluted your country. Stay safe and please accept my apology on behalf of all those and all that is good about America.

Finland is still quite a peaceful country, compared to some other European countries as well. We haven't had biker gangs incidents anymore, for about 1-2 years I think. Thanks for your concern though :asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Technopunk,

I've got a good video in my library on the Magsafe from about 1991 with Joe Zambone the inventor [rip]. It really looks good on ballistic geletin with lots of 'energy'. And if you are fortunate to hit a straight on, unobstructed torso hit it 'might' incapacitate someone....very maybe.

As an instructor I get to use the F.A.T.S. machine from time to time. It is a wall to wall, floor to ceiling projection tied into a computer. On the screen are actors recreating real-life scenerios that officers have been in. The scenerios are 'branched' to the computer. You use a real gun with real ammo [neoprene screen]. The computer scores your reaction time, misses, hits and where the hit was located. If you shoot your attacker before he gets to you and it is a lethal hit the BG may fall down. If it is an iffy hit or bad hit he might keep going or fall down and then get up to continue the fight. It's all controlled by the computer.

It is about as close to realistic as can be safetly utilized. It even has a device that will 'shoot back' if you do not properly seek cover. One heck of a computer ride! It is so realistic that I have seen recruits walk away ready to fall out because of the stress.

Anyway I told you THAT to tell you THIS 8 out of 10 times I have to engage the BG I am shooting him through his outstretched arms. The reason is that he is usually holding out a weapon be it firearm, knife, club etc. Which is why he's being shot in the first place. Look into a mirror and raise your hands up as though your aiming at someone. Notice how you arms are over your COM [center of mass]. This is where we are taught to shoot [and head in some cases] because it is the largest part of the body and contains the vital organs. If you could drae a rectangular box from between you eyes, about 5 inches wide and countinue it down to just above your belly button it would give you a good idea of what we are shooting for. But because of outstretched limbs, or odd angles it is not always a straight on, unobstructed shot. A round has to be able to penatrate that barrier and still go deep enough to hit something important.

And that is still no guarentee with a handgun. I have a 9mm and a .45 Glock. I don't consider the .45 much better than the 9mm in terms of 'stopping power' [ a buzz word to sell gun rags]. I carry Gold dot 200 +P in the .45 and Gold dot 124 +P in the 9mm.

Both rounds have done a fine job in shootings in our Agency. Hope this may help some.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
My favorte is my glock 19 ( mid size 9mm ) with a 15 rd. magazine full of hollow points.


To: Martial artist,
The U.S. army always used the berreta 9mm at least until they went to Korea, in korea they were finding that a 9mm was not stopping the charging Koreans and this is when they decided to try out the colt .45 cal. wich did the job plus some.
Sometimes the cal. makes a big difference.


Hard training breeds warriors................

That's my point, it's the caliber. A 6mm will not cause as much damage as a .50

But what I'm saying is even a 6mm will have stopping power, especially in such close ranges.

In the Korean War, they used pistols at longer distances than what the guy was at.

US Army using the Berreta 9mm? The issue gun from WWII on out to almost a few decades ago was the Colt M-1911 which uses .45 ACP

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by GaryM
From what I have come to understand from many discussions a few anecdotal testaments and some studies. The 45 has the well deserved reputation for its incredible stopping power not from it's penetration. A man can live for up to 9 seconds after being shot in the heart, and a motivated individual with a weapon can kill you several times in that amount of time. A .357 has much more velocity and energy than a .45 yet it has a tendency to expend a lot of that energy on the wall behind the subject. (maybe even the next wall and then the next too!) Yep, the subject is dead, but he may not know that yet. However the .45 tends to expend most of it's 900 ft lbs into the individual and sort of slams them to the ground hence the reputation for 'stopping' power. The reason for hollow point bullits is not penetration, quite the contrary, it is so that the object that the projectile encounters absorbs more of the energy from said projectile. Unless of course you are considering a stand off with your local constabulary who wear vests then you may want to consider smaller calibers, higher velocities, teflon coated bullits, mental counseling....

That's why a lot of rifles use .357

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
We were using the .38 caliber in the phillipines at that time. And not the .38 special of today. We did indeed switch over to .45 but contrary to popular folklore the .45 was not that much more successful.

The U.S. switched to the Beretta 9mm in the 80's. A fine choice, though not quite the equal of a Glock.

It is not hitting something that is important, it is hitting something important that is important regardless of caliber or any other factor with the exception of penatration.

Take care.

Glock is more for law enforcement, not as much use in the military nowadays. Most US Marines don't use a Glock. Many soldiers in the Army today are fond of either SIG pistols or H&K pistols. The elite forces also like SIG, H&K, and Magnum pistols.

The reason Glocks are excellent for law enforcement is that the recoil is low, you have twice as many bullets, and it's still powerful enough for street applications. However, I'd rather opt for something like the H&K USP Expert as my secondary.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by bob919
actually hollowpoints only expand if they hit bone even if the hit a rib they wont deform that much and as for stopping power some people have the miss conseption that abullet is gonna knock down the attacker and even through him bak several feet if tha did happen you the shooter would also be thrown back several feet unless they were very strong it has been calculated tha a 9mm par round will move a man backwards at a rate of 2" a second not really much i think you'll agree

about 5 years ago a cop shot a criminal 6 times hitting him in the chest gut arms and legs one of which hit the next to the heart, the criminal was still conscious and shooting at the cop before anothe cop knocked out the criminal with the but of his gun

when a bullet is traveling under 1600 fps it will just leave a smalle hole usually not bigger than the bullet itself, explosive bullet woulds usually occur at about 2000+ fps

as far as knocking out someone a baton to the head has a higher chance of success than a bullet to the body

contary to poualar belief the caliber has very little difference

all this said there is no finer weaon for dewfending yourself, just aim for the head

True, in most cases.

But caliber does have a lot to do with everything. A 6mm vs. a .50 cal. Hmmmm. The exit wound of a .50 cal = :erg:

Caliber also plays a difference in the pros and cons of a M-16 vs. an AK-47. The 5.56mm shot out of a M-16 is dead accurate, but at longer ranges, the light bullet is susceptible to wind and the like. The AK-47, is power. The 7.62mm does a lot more damage at the same range and hit at the same target bu I forget how many joules. The 5.56mm however has the "swiss cheese" effect.

These factors aren't so much caliber, but are caliber-related. Gun design is more important.

 

[MartialArtist]

Again, a 9mm is better suited for street situations. Less recoil, more bullets than something like a .50 that has 7+1 bullets at the most.

However, a 9mm will not work in other types of missions, like the counter-terrorist missions of the SEALs and the Delta Force, mainly due to the equipment the enemy has like kevlar w/ plate.

 

[GaryM]

Kind of off the subject, just an interesting tidbit. I believe the gov't adopted the .45 in 1911, hence the designation 1911A1. It was used in ww1. Durring the making of the movie Sgt. York (with Gary Cooper) they tried to be as accurate as possible to the true story, but the govt. 45 wouldn't cycle with blanks, so in the scene where sgt. York kills the 7 german soldiers coming over the hill they had him use a luger for the film.

 

[GaryM]

Originally posted by shadowdragon
Are you guys serious about liking guns so much ?? I have general dislike towards guns, never want to own and use one.....

No. 1 rule for a gunfight... bring a gun!

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by GaryM
No. 1 rule for a gunfight... bring a gun!

or don't show up

 

[theletch1]

The big trick with the use of any weapon, favorite or not, is the amount of hassle involved in defending yourself with it. I have a concealed carry permit but am restricted in about 75% of the places that I go. I drive a truck for a living so the federal gov't says I can't carry one at work. If I use one to defend myself, then the guy I'm defending myself against had better have a gun himself. Yes, I love my Glock for home defence, heck, my wife loves the 12 ga. for the home. Neither of them are very practical for defending yourself in the "most litigious society in the world"
I'll have to agree with all of the others who have posted that their favorite weapon is their mind. I'll let the situation dictate which weapon is my favorite at the moment. I'm just waiting for someone to attack me in the parking lot of my kwoon while I have my weapons bag in my hand..... then I can try all of them in succession and find out for sure which is my favorite.... escrima, tonfa, knife, katana, nunchaku, sai or just yelling real loud for my instructor to come out and save my butt.

"make civilized the mind, make savage the body":asian:

 

[bob919]

caliber does matter i agree but not as much as people think aeven a 44 mag wouldn't knock most people down they would probably wall instantly but thats cause by the wound they are not thrown back like you seen in arnies films

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by bob919
caliber does matter i agree but not as much as people think aeven a 44 mag wouldn't knock most people down they would probably wall instantly but thats cause by the wound they are not thrown back like you seen in arnies films

Well, it's dictated by caliber in a way like you said.

Different calibers have their own set of advantages and disadvantages. A disadvantage of a .50 AE is that the kickback is powerful enough to sprain your wrist if you limp it. Plus, you don't get a lot of bullets. Not only that, it also goes into penetration and/or stopping power.

The 5.56mm has the swiss cheese effect, where the bullet theoritically bounces around inside your body. The .357 out of a high-power rifle is for penetration.

 

[A.R.K.]

Glock is more for law enforcement, not as much use in the military nowadays.

Actually Glock started off as a Military sidearm and gained quite a share in Europe. U.S. LEO agencies started taking notice in a large way towards the end of the 80's.

A 6mm will not cause as much damage as a .50

Alot depends on the bullet type i.e. Hp vs FMJ. But even then it would be very hard to distinguish between the two in a wound tract. Several ME's I have talked with say they are unable to distinguish caliber unless a slug or fragments are recovered. In handgun calibers that is, rifle is a different ballgame.

However, a 9mm will not work in other types of missions, like the counter-terrorist missions of the SEALs and the Delta Force

Haven't kept up with what they use nowadays, but the 9mm 147 subsonic in supressed weapons gained popularity with the seals for head shots at distance.

The bottom line would be to shoot the weapon that you are most comfortable/accurate with under stress. Don't worry about buzz-words like 'one-stop-shoots', bullet energy etc. As long as the round functions, penatrates to an adequate depth to reach something vital. Function, shot placement and penatration are the priority.

If anyone is interested for much more indepth coverage of firearms I would recommend www.glocktalk.com

Not just for Glocks but the whole deal.

 

[KatGurl]

Originally posted by bob919
mines tonfa a pair of them well actually two pr-24 batons they work extremly wellmy second favourite is saicause they are so versetile 3-section staff are great fun two

whats your favourite

my favorite are knives. they can cut at any angle, they hurt, and they're shiny.

my second favorite are sticks. regular stick branches from trees. one reason is no one would suspect someone using them, and they're easy to get rid of.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Good lord! People often survive 9mm gunshots. A .50 will blow your head off clean! Or blow a hole the size of a foot ball in your torso!

Take the lesson learnt by the FBI, get a 10mm or a 45.

Glock is great for reliability. For superb accuratecy, HK USP.

For 9mm self defence, get the BeeSafe prefragmented ammo. This will kick a hole the size of a softball in the torso. Instant kill!

Make sure you get DAO (Double Action Only). It is prosecutor-proof.

 

[SRyuFighter]

My favorite weapon is the Katana because I am pretty good with one and I have fun with them.