What's the best way to deal with...

[Mr. President]

The belts you get awarded for posting on Martial Talk don't translate in the real world.

Now you tell me...

So really a MT (Martial Talk) fighter is just an armchair warrior.

I'm OK with that.

Are you a trained Muay Thai fighter whose idea of a relaxing vacation is kicking banana trees? Big difference between being one and wishing you were one.

I don't wish for that. I don't care for Muay Thai that much. I do, however, respect the potential destructive effects of its more aggressive techniques. The reason I mentioned MT in regards to that kick is because it's very common. Practitioners use it quite a bit in order to unbalance their opponent.

But Aikido is not the only oart talking about moving in. Old School Japanese Jiujutsu says move in, grab the leg and throw the kicker on the ground...

That's a perfectly reasonable answer to what I asked, and I'm sure it works, but if a picture is worth a thousand words, a video is worth a million. That's why I asked for it.

Now if you are interested in Aikido then quit asking questions, go train it and find out for yourself...

Can't. Would if I could.

Banana trees huh someones watched one too many van dame movies.

Or this -

You want me to think you're tough

Whether you think I'm tough or a frightened little girl is of little consequence to the nature of my inquiry in this thread.

but a kick to the hip ain't going to cripple me.

Wouldn't that depend on who is doing the kicking? Remember - It's the fighter, not the art.

No Aikidoka is going to go out and join the UFC.

Wouldn't want them too. It does make it a bit more trashy. I am, however, very fond of watching women fight on UFC. Very sexy stuff.

Aikido wouldn't even be very useful in UFC because small joint manipulation is illegal in the cage.

That, and the fact that they insist on gloves, don't they? Even if joint manipulation was allowed, how could you do it with gloves on?

 

[Tez3]

Now you tell me...



I'm OK with that.



I don't wish for that. I don't care for Muay Thai that much. I do, however, respect the potential destructive effects of its more aggressive techniques. The reason I mentioned MT in regards to that kick is because it's very common. Practitioners use it quite a bit in order to unbalance their opponent.

They do? Are you so sure?



That's a perfectly reasonable answer to what I asked, and I'm sure it works, but if a picture is worth a thousand words, a video is worth a million. That's why I asked for it.



Can't. Would if I could.



Or this -

Whether you think I'm tough or a frightened little girl is of little consequence to the nature of my inquiry in this thread.



Wouldn't that depend on who is doing the kicking? Remember - It's the fighter, not the art.



Wouldn't want them too. It does make it a bit more trashy. I am, however, very fond of watching women fight on UFC. Very sexy stuff.

Considering the first women's fights on UFC were only on Saturday night you became fond very quickly and adding sexist remarks on here won't endear you much to anyone. So you find the men's MMA trashy and the women's sexy, yeah well, says a lot mate.



That, and the fact that they insist on gloves, don't they? Even if joint manipulation was allowed, how could you do it with gloves on?

If you don't know how they can do joint manipulation with MMA gloves on perhaps you've been concentrating on watching the wrong things when you've been watching the UFC. Get your eyes off the girl's backsides and actually watch the fighting then you would know what you are talking about.

 

[Mr. President]

Considering the first women's fights on UFC were only on Saturday night you became fond very quickly

You do know that MMA and UFC are available on youtube, right? Liking something quickly is easy in the youtube age.

adding sexist remarks on here won't endear you much to anyone.

Finding something sexy doesn't make you sexist. Get a dictionary.

So you find the men's MMA trashy and the women's sexy

Sure. I guess that's one way of cartoonishly oversimplifying what I said.

If you don't know how they can do joint manipulation with MMA gloves on perhaps you've been concentrating on watching the wrong things when you've been watching the UFC.

Various Aikido techniques require finger and wrist action, so obviously a glove would hinder that. The fact that I have to explain it is sad.

Get your eyes off the girl's backsides and actually watch the fighting then you would know what you are talking about.

Watching the dynamics of the fight is what I find sexy, among other things.

Your entire post was a childish lashing out exercise. I made a lot of points you didn't bother addressing. If that's the best you've got, don't bother answering me.

 

[Manny]

The video shown of how to defend a roundhouse kick to the body is the same tech that we learn in TKD. I am second degree black belt in TKD who is learning aikido. Talking abou TKD I have two techs to deal with a round house kick to the body, one is the one that you show in the video and the other is move out and let the kick pass while I perform a low block not to stop the kick but to lauuch itaway for my body while I trap it to then perform a n iside sweap to the suporting leg. Let me see if I can find the tech on you tube ands post it here.

Manny

 

[Aiki Lee]

Defending successfully against a round kick is not that difficult for someone experienced with controlling maai, and who has consistency with sen sen no sen and deai (see my post in Mr. President's "my theory on aikido" thread). Again, it's not an issue of speed or reacting to the movement. It's a timing issue. You move before the actual kick is thrown but after he has made the decision to throw it. You might ask "how can you realistically determine what he's going to attack with? Isn't that like mind reading?" And, no. It's not.

By controlling the space and recognizing what the nature of your opponent is (more aggressive or more cautious), certain methods of attacks become more probable. In the case of a round kick, the opponent would likely hang back to maintain a "kicking range" (note that in self defense kicking ranges really don't exist because if you have to defend yourself the guy is likely closing the distance into a much more close and uncomfortable range). If for whatever reason an aikidoka had to fight such a guy (maybe he's blocking the only exit), staying out of arms reach likely results in the guy wanting to kick you. It would be the only thing he could hit you with provided he is not armed with a weapon. So again it all comes down to maai and your timing. You control what he can hit you with based on your positioning and posture.

Also, to the rest of you guys on MT. I don't really think that Mr. President here is trying to insult aikido or its practitioners. I'm under the impression that he's interested in the art, but doesn't understand if it would be practical for him to take it up, so he's asking questions about it. I don't think we got another FriedRice or RonninX on our hands here.

Then again, maybe you are seeing something I am not.

 

[Mr. President]

Let me see if I can find the tech on you tube ands post it here.

I would love to see that. Thanks for the effort.

You move before the actual kick is thrown but after he has made the decision to throw it.

If I understand you correctly, you're referring, broadly at least, to body language and perhaps even the opponent's eyes might give away his next action.

I can only assume that such psychological skill takes a very long time to master.

I don't really think that Mr. President here is trying to insult aikido or its practitioners. I'm under the impression that he's interested in the art, but doesn't understand if it would be practical for him to take it up, so he's asking questions about it.

Yeah, that's basically it. The reason Aikido is the art I ask about is because I'm attracted to the elegance of it, but at the same time, struggle with some questions of implementation.

I have a friend who practices Krav Maga and he mocks Aikido quite a bit for not being practical, and I always take the other side of the argument, but it's always helpful to get more answers.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Various Aikido techniques require finger and wrist action, so obviously a glove would hinder that. The fact that I have to explain it is sad.

Small joint manipulation is extremely difficult regardless of whether or not the opponent has gloves on. These techniques are often used as teaching devices to impart lessons rather than to be taken as an example of what you should do in a fight. With that said, wrist locks are not illegal in MMA as far as I know. The gloves do offer wrist protection to a degree so they are less practical and they tend to be easier to perform against lunging attacks or from a grabbing attack. You can do them from a cross or jab, but the timing is different and some of the mechanics change when doing the wrist lock to a tight fist as opposed to an open hand that was grabbing at you.

To adequately pull of a finger lock is a bit different in a real fight. You wouldn't look for such a thing, it would be a technique that presents itself. For example a guy might grab you with one hand and start punching you with the other. If you place your hand on his grabbing hand you may find that you got a hold of his finger. So you break his fingers instead of readjusting for better wrist control. That's one example.

The reason you don't see much aikido in MMA besides the ideological conflicts between aikido philosophy and sporting contests is because the energy required for successful aiki applications doesn't present itself as often in sport contests as it does in SD situations. What I mean is that if you watch an MMA clip, you will see them sort of "stalking" each other. Both are aware that the other intends to give them a fight and so no one rushes in with an overly aggressive attitude (unless one of the fighters has the other rocked)

This is what I mean:

They take their time. Later on in the video there are moments where aiki could be effective, but it takes time to develope that fighters just don't have. Their time is better spent on other skills they need to improve quickly. But look at the beginning of the fight for what I'm talking about when I say the energy needed for aiki is not present. You can see at the start, no one wants to rush into something. They throw some attacks to test the water and wear each other down. A high level aiki practioner could still do what he needs to here, but he would need to set up his technique by baiting the other guy to come att him with a more committed attack.

Comepare that to something like this (skip to 50 seconds in):

You see how the attackers rush in and close up the distance? This is what happens in SD verses sport. The attacking energy is continuous until the attacker has satisfied himself. In SD the distance closes up really quick. That's why aikido applications tend to have partners continuously moving towards them, to simulate this experience. Such as this:

See what I'm talking about?

 

[Aiki Lee]

If I understand you correctly, you're referring, broadly at least, to body language and perhaps even the opponent's eyes might give away his next action.

I can only assume that such psychological skill takes a very long time to master.

Bodly language plays a very key role, but so does reading a person's ki or his intention. Both take some time to become effective. I expect it will take much longer to master as I'm not there yet. I can effectively do it, but it is not as effortless as I wish it to be.
As a rule, I believe you should never look an opponent in the eyes. They have a tendency to distract you and make you focus in on the person's face, which is what you will naturally do but is very counter productive. After all, he's not going to attack you with his face now is he. The best gaze for combat is to have a soft focus for your vision aimed at the oppoenets collarbone or shoulder area and use your periphial vision to see. You will see a lot more by doing this than by focusing on any one part of his body. Of course this is rather unnatural as adrenaline and instinct makes you want to focus on what the percieved threat is. If he's holding a gun on you, you zero in on the gun. if he's punching you, you zero in on the punching hand. If he's about to attack you and you are in a screaming match, you zero in on his face. All are bad decisions, but they are instinct. they must be trained out of you and replaced with a soft focus that must be maintained under moments of duress.

The reason Aikido is the art I ask about is because I'm attracted to the elegance of it, but at the same time, struggle with some questions of implementation.

I have a friend who practices Krav Maga and he mocks Aikido quite a bit for not being practical, and I always take the other side of the argument, but it's always helpful to get more answers.

There is definitely an elegance to aikido and realistically it does fall more into the "art" side than the "martial", but aikido's skills and techniques are very much applicaple in real world situations they just take much longer to develope. Something like Krav Maga takes much less time to learn and so when you compare to people (one who does aikido and one who does KM) and they have been training for a year, then the KM guy will likely appear more qualified to defend himself. After 10 years you will likely see that the KM guy can handle himself, but the aikidoka can control everything that comes into his space. Studying aikido is a lifelong pursuit.

 

[Mr. President]

Small joint manipulation is extremely difficult regardless of whether or not the opponent has gloves on.

I didn't mean the opponent. I meant the Aikidoka. It's hard to grab, twist, manipulate and throw without your fingers being free, which is why an Aikidoka won't do well in any sporting match that requires gloves.

The last video is the one I've already shown to my friend. Didn't convince him, though I like it.

 

[K-man]

Yeah, that's basically it. The reason Aikido is the art I ask about is because I'm attracted to the elegance of it, but at the same time, struggle with some questions of implementation.

I have a friend who practices Krav Maga and he mocks Aikido quite a bit for not being practical, and I always take the other side of the argument, but it's always helpful to get more answers.

I was going to just put you on 'ignore', but I'll give it one more try. You have no martial art skills and you are arguing points that have been put to you by martial artists who have trained for 20, 30 or 40 years. I'm not saying that they are always right but before you write off what they have to say, you need to be very sure of your facts. If you have a genuine question there are many people here who will go way out of their way to get you a good answer. If you post a proposition that is frankly BS and say "Am I right", it sends the wrong message.

Now to you last post. I have a friend I train with regularly. He is a karateka with over 50 years experience. He is a qualified Krav instructor and the same for Systema. He trains Muay Thai and takes a group of his guys to Thailand very year to train and fight. He is a black belt in BJJ, no mean feat. As a bouncer and bodyguard he has had more street fights than anyone I know. I train Aikido with him twice a week. As far as he is concerned despite his considerable skills across the martial arts, he believes Aikido is ultimately the way to go. For what it's worth, I happen to agree.

But not all Aikido schools or Aikido instructors are first rate, something that is common to every style. Your mate has obviously only seen crap Aikido. Good Aikido can stand up in any company. :asian:

 

[K-man]

I didn't mean the opponent. I meant the Aikidoka. It's hard to grab, twist, manipulate and throw without your fingers being free, which is why an Aikidoka won't do well in any sporting match that requires gloves.

There you go again making board statements as fact. From the Aikidoka perspective I have no difficulty applying Aikido techniques while using MMA type gloves. It might be slightly more difficult to control your partner's hand if he was wearing gloves, but I really can't imagine any of the locks or holds that I couldn't perform with gloves. Different if you are talking bag gloves.

I don't know any Aikidoka that wants to compete in a 'sporting' match. I don't compete or even want to compete in karate 'sporting' matches either. :asian:

 

[Xue Sheng]

I didn't mean the opponent. I meant the Aikidoka. It's hard to grab, twist, manipulate and throw without your fingers being free, which is why an Aikidoka won't do well in any sporting match that requires gloves.

The last video is the one I've already shown to my friend. Didn't convince him, though I like it.

What the heck does that have to do with the price of tea in China

Aikido, most Chinese marital arts and even the Sanda I trained does not get into sporting matches.

But have you ever seen or put on a pari of MMA gloves, they used them in the Jun Fan/JKD school I trained at and grabbing was not really all that much of an issue. So I am guessing an Aikidoka would not have that much of an issue

See the fingers are free to grab

Add to that I do believe there are MMA fighters that have trained Aikido

 

[Aiki Lee]

I didn't mean the opponent. I meant the Aikidoka. It's hard to grab, twist, manipulate and throw without your fingers being free, which is why an Aikidoka won't do well in any sporting match that requires gloves.

The last video is the one I've already shown to my friend. Didn't convince him, though I like it.

Yeah, gloves do make such things harder, but so does adrenaline. under stress you may feel as if you are wearing gloves because the feeling sensation in your hands will be dulled. Aikido is often incorrectly assumed to use only small joint manipulation. Aikido SD skills, like any good SD skill uses gross motor functions.

Your friend's mind seems made up. His knowledge on fighting and martial arts is limited. He may be good at it, don't get me wrong, but aiki skills are a completely different animal than what he would be used to and would actually be sued against someone who is more agressive such as a KM practitioner.

 

[Drasken]

Add to that I do believe there are MMA fighters that have trained Aikido

Anderson Silva trained with Steven Segal. Now my opinion of Segal aside, I saw some of the clips of the training and it was very practical stuff. A lot of the time Segal would show him something and have to ask... Wait.... Is that illegal?

Also as a response to Mr.President, I have trained for 13 years in Krav Maga. In an earlier thread about effectiveness of grappling, I detailed an encounter in which I was jumped by 2 guys. One of them had a knife. The techniques I instinctively used were Aikido. I have only trained Aikido for 1 1/2 years. I reached Yellow belt and then had to move out of state and never got the chance to go back. But the techniques I learned saved my life in this encounter and I wasn't arrested even on suspicion because I defended myself in a manner that I had broken no laws.
I am not saying that in certain situations that I won't, or haven't, gone into my Krav training and left someone broken on the ground. However Aikido is extremely useful and easy to pick up. Amazingly easy to use as well provided you have the proper amount of practice.

If you are HONESTLY just asking questions to see if it is worth your time, the answer is most definitely yes. If you're asking if it is effective, again yes.
As I said, even after 13 years of Krav Maga I am still looking at an Aikido dojo that my wife and I plan on joining as soon as possible. So go and learn it. Many schools will also let you take a free class to see if it's something you are actually interested in. If not they should at least let you watch a class. So what are you waiting for?

 

[Cyriacus]

I dont see why you couldnt use Aikido in a sport fight.
I mean, its one of the few situations where youre guaranteed your opponent is going to come in with something you can respond to. Its more predictable.

 

[Aiki Lee]

It's an issue of intent, not mechanics. In most sport fights there is equal thought to defense and attack, which is why you see the back and forth and not just one guy ending the fight in a few seconds (usually). You could use it in a sport fight, but you'd have to set it up in a way that makes the opponent want to commit to a full attack without concern for his defense. If you did a rope a dope type strategy where the other guy get so confident you can't do anything to him, he may stop caring about his defense, but that would mean making it look like you were weaker on purpose which would give you a bad score from the judges.

Aiki relies on taking the aggressive energy present, in a boxing type scenario the engery is more restrained in order to not forget the necessary defense against a guy who is punching back. To get him to commit you must either make him feel like he is winning (and feel no need for defense), irritate him into rushing forward, or (a higher level ability) maintaining adequate control of the space that he overextends in an attempt to reach you when he feels you are in range. Without commitment there is no threat, without threat there is no aggressive energy, and without aggressive energy there is no aiki. You would have to create the opportunity for aiki in that case, possibly through atemi.

 

[Tez3]

You do know that MMA and UFC are available on youtube, right? Liking something quickly is easy in the youtube age.

You said you liked watching women fight on UFC, which of course if you knew anything about MMA you'd know that the first fights on UFC were only on Saturday, I think you are making the classic mistake of assuming UFC and MMA is the same thing.




Finding something sexy doesn't make you sexist. Get a dictionary.

Dear me, I would assume then you also find the mens fights sexy in that context then.



Sure. I guess that's one way of cartoonishly oversimplifying what I said.

'cartoonishly' implies a drawing of something, the drawing going on round here is us drawing the conclusion you are actually trolling here rather than making serious points.



Various Aikido techniques require finger and wrist action, so obviously a glove would hinder that. The fact that I have to explain it is sad.

As you should have seen by now the photo of an MMA glove you will realise that you can manipulate small joints. If you couldn't do it in MMA gloves why make it illegal?


Watching the dynamics of the fight is what I find sexy, among other things.

Your entire post was a childish lashing out exercise. I made a lot of points you didn't bother addressing. If that's the best you've got, don't bother answering me.

Son, don't tell me what I can and can't answer, you are showing your ignorance more and more, it's fine you don't train any martial art but when it comes to telling people with years of experience how things are done or not done you are way out of your depth. On here and other threads you are also being rude to people, not the best way to learn anything. Empty cup.........