What will it take...

[Makalakumu]

...to convince people to change their votes?

This country is split down the middle 50/50 and NOTHING seems to be making a difference. For example, I believe there is ample evidence to show that the Bush Administration is one of the most corrupt administrations in US history.

Take for example this thread...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16840

The blatent conflict of interests and the abuses of power are sickening. Yet, it almost seems as if the poll numbers are insulated from this information. It seems as if Americans just don't want to hear it.

What is going on here? What will be the straw the breaks the camels back? Or is the camel Atlas and not even the world can bow its back?

upnorthkyosa

 

[Bob Hubbard]

My problem is, I don't like -any- of the candidates. So, to me it comes down to "remove Bush" or "reelect Bush" at this time.

To remove him, you vote for Kerry.
To Reelect him, you vote for Bush or anyone else BUT Kerry.

The American public doesn't have the time, inclination or even interest to make an informed or educated decision. They base their votes on such things as hearsay, friends opinions, voting the party line (often because thats the way their parents did it), and random choice (I've got no clue who all these folks are so I'll make a nice zig zag) IF! they even bother to get off their lazy asses and take the 10-15 out of their day to excercize the right that thousands and thousands have died to get, and protect.

It's 2 months until we find out the stories ending. Hopefully enough people will wake up and vote to turn the tide. I'm not too optimistic though.

Hey...everyone vote Nader. Won't that piss off the big 2? :rofl:

 

[Makalakumu]

I feel like the people on this forum have provided some very compelling research and arguments and I can't understand why it makes no difference. I would like to think that people are critically weighing both sides, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The nationwide polls haven't budged out of the margin of error. Who is at fault for this? The media?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

In part, yes. They only cover the 'sensational' issues, gloss over the stuff that just doesn't guarentee ratings. The candidates themselves who sling mud like mad, and refuse to discuss the real issues. Personally, I'm more concerned with the economy here, than in Iraq. I'm more concerned with knowing I'm safe here, and could care less about there. I honestly don't care if the candidate inhaled, passout, couldn't hold his beer or had a fling with a trio of green orion slave girls and then married his tractor.

What's he going to do to make sure I can continue to enjoy at an increasing rate the "American Dream"? Where's my affordable health care and medicine? How about being able to drive without needing a second morgage to fill the tank, or insure my clunker? How about protecting my industry from being shipped overseas? How about protecting the enviroment so I can breath and eat and drink clean air/food/water?

I honestly don't care if one twit threw out some medals and couldn't make up his mind or even find it for that matter, or the other moron was so terrified some guy in a pink boa was gonna cut his hair that he used 'mad ninja skillz' to disapear for several months.

Sadly, in both cases, the figurehead at the forefront of both parties are jokes at best.
Bush has the plus of having a strong backing in his cabinet, corrupt as they might be. Kerry is an uncertainty. Some say better the devil you know....

Personally....I miss Ross Perot. He was a likable little ferrengi.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Honestly I can see a repeat of the last Presidental Election. Jeb Bush is once again the Governor of Flordia. Remember the polls and votes were similar as last time.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Lets not forget the buggy voting machines in several states..oh and the UN observers.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Lets not forget the buggy voting machines in several states..oh and the UN observers.

UN observers? To put it in the most intellectual terms possible: huh?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The UN is sending observers to watch the 2004 election to ensure it's fair, and nothing 'underhanded' goes on. This 'privilage' is usually reserved to 3rd world nations.

 

[Flatlander]

UN observers? To put it in the most intellectual terms possible: huh?

Here is a link to an article regarding UN observation of the election.

 

[Phoenix44]

the figurehead at the forefront of both parties are jokes at best.

Do you REALLY believe that? Because if you do, please don't take offense, but you have not done your homework, and you are not familiar with the issues or the candidates' records on the issues.

I'm with upnorthkyosa on this. There may have been an election where it was "cool" to say, "There's no difference between the candidates," but NOT THIS ELECTION. And I'm not talking about "medals." You're right, the Bush campaign and their friends made that into an issue to take the focus away from the real problems facing this country: the deficit, unemployment, health care, the environment, human rights, education, to name a few.

Are you aware that Kerry, as a freshman senator, initiated the probe that led to the exposure of the Iran-Contra scandal? Are you aware that Sen. Kerry launched the investigation leading to the criminal indictments and demise of the "Bank of Credit & Commerce International," called "the mother and father of all terrorist financers"? Are you familiar with his plan to provide affordable health insurance to nearly 100% of Americans? Have you looked at the documents demonstrating the consistent lies and corruption of the Bush administration? Do you understand VP Cheney's connection to the criminal activity of Halliburton? Or the implications of Bush's relationship with the Saudi royal family? Or the TRUTH behind the pre-war Iraq intelligence?

If you aren't aware of these issues--and those are just for starters--then there is no way you can make an informed decision. I've NEVER before been politically active. But if I were you, I'd look a little closer at the choice before you. It matters.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Wow, you know that the current administration isn't trusted when the UN sends election observers. This is embarrassing.

 

[michaeledward]

Wow, you know that the current administration isn't trusted when the UN sends election observers. This is embarrassing.

In just about all of our nationwide elections, there is an error rate between 1 and 2%. This means somewhere around 1 million votes are lost, or erroneously recorded. That is before you get to the debacle of 2000 Bush-Gore.

When you look at all the activities of local election boards across the country, in the light of the 2000 election, I believe you need to have someone monitoring what is going on.

We may not be able to eliminate the error rate, but all of those who are legal to vote, and who wish to vote, should be able to get to the polls and cast a vote. For that guarantee, representatives from Europe have been requested to monitor our election ( not the United Nations - actually going to the UN was proposed and shot down ).

I plan to vote by Absentee Ballot ... this will keep Deibold away from my vote.

Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

What will it take for conservative America to say, Enough with Bush! I sometimes feel that they only reason they haven't revolted in their own party is because they might elect a liberal. Part of me feels bad for the average Joe Republican. Many on the right have to know that their candidate is corrupt beyond all reason...what do you do? In the end, I think the willingness to stick with Bush is the result of the demonization of the other side and the general polarization we see in politics today. Liberal has become an epithet and it has overcome all reason.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Feisty Mouse]

From what I understand, some conservative (but not neo-conservative) Republicans ARE saying, "Enough with Bush!" but I'm not sure that many Amercian voters who identify themselves as Republican are listening to them. It's almost funny - almost - how "liberal" has become such a demonized word, considering that so many things we are proud of today as Americans were considered "liberal" issues when they emerged. It boggles the mind.

 

[Makalakumu]

I often ask myself what I would do if the tables were turned. What would I do if the democratic candidate proved to be absolutely horrible. Historically, it has happened. LBJ for instance, yes he did some good things, but Vietnam really would have pissed me off. What would you do?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

What will it take for conservative America to say, Enough with Bush! I sometimes feel that they only reason they haven't revolted in their own party is because they might elect a liberal. Part of me feels bad for the average Joe Republican. Many on the right have to know that their candidate is corrupt beyond all reason...what do you do? In the end, I think the willingness to stick with Bush is the result of the demonization of the other side and the general polarization we see in politics today. Liberal has become an epithet and it has overcome all reason.

upnorthkyosa

Many Republicans have turned against Bush, Upnorth. Check out Pat Buchanen's book Where The Right Turned Wrong. It slams the Bush administration's foreign policy and talks about how the intellectual "neocons" have hijacked the Republican party.

A fun book, and an interesting one. I recommend it for liberals and conservatives alike.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Melissa426]

It's all about self-interest. What's in it for ME?

Prove to me that if we elect Kerry that:

a. my taxes will go down
b. my healthcare costs will go down
c. I won't lose my job because of layoffs secondary to the sluggish economy
d. We will pull out of the Iraqi war any sooner.
e. My neighborhood will be safer
f. My kids will be better educated
g. Gas prices will go down
h. The government won't pass laws that betray my principles (eg, stem cell research, marriage between gays, reproductive rights, immigration laws, taking "God" out of the pledge of allegiance or off dollar bills, etc)

And also, prove to me that if we do re-elect Bush, none of the above will happen.

PLEASE don't start flaming ME! I am NOT saying that I PERSONALLY will not vote for Kerry for the above reasons. I am just answering the question about why some people will not change their votes.

Peace,
melissa

 

[Makalakumu]

It's all about self-interest. What's in it for ME?

Prove to me that if we elect Kerry that:

a. my taxes will go down
b. my healthcare costs will go down
c. I won't lose my job because of layoffs secondary to the sluggish economy
d. We will pull out of the Iraqi war any sooner.
e. My neighborhood will be safer
f. My kids will be better educated
g. Gas prices will go down
h. The government won't pass laws that betray my principles (eg, stem cell research, marriage between gays, reproductive rights, immigration laws, taking "God" out of the pledge of allegiance or off dollar bills, etc)

And also, prove to me that if we do re-elect Bush, none of the above will happen.

PLEASE don't start flaming ME! I am NOT saying that I PERSONALLY will not vote for Kerry for the above reasons. I am just answering the question about why some people will not change their votes.

Peace,
melissa

Thank you for your heartfelt reply.

I think that John Kerry will address items a-f on your list. Regarding the information though, these debates in forums like this have/are very informative. At one time or another, those items have been thouroughly discussed. In this political year, I would reccommend taking part in as many of these kind or other kinds of political discussions as possible.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

Many Republicans have turned against Bush, Upnorth. Check out Pat Buchanen's book Where The Right Turned Wrong. It slams the Bush administration's foreign policy and talks about how the intellectual "neocons" have hijacked the Republican party.

A fun book, and an interesting one. I recommend it for liberals and conservatives alike.


Regards,


Steve

Thanks for the recommendation. I've heard a lot about that book and I have read quite a few critical peices from Buchanen recently. My question regards whether or not the dissenters will actually vote against President Bush, though. Will these dissenters vote party line, or will they jump over? What are people's thoughts either way?

 

[michaeledward]

I hope voters will take a long hard look at their own pocket books.

I have faithfully contributed to my 401(k) for the 5 years I have been employed with my current company. I have contributed to this account. I have rolled over my 401(k) from my prior employer. I have received company matching funds. I have kept my money in a 'Standard & Poore's 500' mirrored fund.

For every $1.00 I have contributed, I have less than $.90 cents in the account.

That's right, I have lost more than 10% of my investment.

I wasn't involved in a self-directed retirement plan during most of the Clinton years, but I do know that those who were, made out a hell of a lot better than this.