The Blame Game

[heretic888]

If it walks, quacks and ***** like a duck, its probably a duck.

Or perhaps it's just an illusory correlation.

The point is that unless you are a trained psychopathologist, you don't have the means for ascertaining with any acceptable degree of certainty. There certainly isn't enough information to go on from a few random posts on an internet message board, in any event.

Regardless, I don't think it's a valid concern and has no place in the discussion. Simply saying "well, you only think that because you hate so-and-so" is, essentially, attacking an individual's personality rather than an individual's argument. Its a type of ad hominem logical fallacy.

Laterz.

 

[Jeff Boler]

Thanks for that reply there Dr. Phil. Your opinion is noted.

 

[Kreth]

to the break up of David Lee Roth and Van Halen.

Diamond Dave's not with Van Halen?! Next you'll be telling us that Peter Criss and Ace Frehley are no longer in Kiss...

 

[Mark L]

...go on from a few random posts on an internet message board ...

I offer no proof, but my observation is that the posts are neither few nor random.

 

[Jeff Boler]

Diamond Dave's not with Van Halen?! Next you'll be telling us that Peter Criss and Ace Frehley are no longer in Kiss...

Is Paul even in Kiss anymore? I thought that was Cher.....

 

[michaeledward]

No, you're wrong. Your dislike of the President is the very heart of the matter. You are only upset because it is George Bush. If it was anyone else, you wouldn't have a problem with it. That's the problem. You are making this out to be some noble campaign, but the fact of the matter is that your guy lost the last election, and your still pissed off about it.

That's the same problem the Democratic party is having right now. They are attempting to act like all of the issues are some noble campaign to make things better, but in reality, all they are doing is whining and crying, and probably costing themselves the next election as well.

Jeff Boler, My guy was Dennis Kucinich. And Before that My guy was the nutcase with the corvair ... so please don't ascribe motives to me based on your ideological hatred of me.

My problem is that the President is pissing all over the American Constitution. The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution is gone. The Department of Homeland Security (a grotesque usurption of authority) and the White House did not even look to see if there were any ties between Dubai Ports World and al Qaeda prior to turning over terminal operations in the United States --- and there were connections between UAE and al Qaeda that we know of. The President fiddled while New Orleans was drowning. The President has initiated the largest transfer of wealth from the American Citizens to the richest .5% of the population unchecked.

This administration is, and has been for more than five years, a complete Friggin' Disaster.

Impeachment is too good for this son of a *****.

And, in the next day or so, I will be updating the 1000 and Counting thread ... oops, it is a 2000 and counting thread ..... although we are about to hit 2300 and counting. And how many Weapons of Mass Destruction were found .... that is ZERO.

I guess we can tell that Jeff Boler remains one of the 18% in the country that view Vice President Cheney favorably, and one of the 34% in the country that view President Bush favorably.

What was Nixon's favorability score when he retired?

 

[michaeledward]

I offer no proof, but my observation is that the posts are neither few nor random.

Please feel free to use the 'Ignore' option listed under the User CP area.

 

[Mark L]

Please feel free to use the 'Ignore' option listed under the User CP area.

No thanks, I often find the ridiculous to be entertaining. Lighten up (not on the issues, on your inter-personal skills), this forum is for discussion. If oppossing views to yours can't be expressed without getting this response, you aren't engaging in discussion, are you.

 

[shesulsa]

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our general posting rules regarding conduct. showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-G Ketchmark / shesulsa-
-MT Sr. Moderator-

 

[Kenpoist]

All those who think the response to Hurricane Katrina was the United States finest hour, please ignore this thread.

All else, we have been asked to put off "The Blame Game", while there is still work to do. Well, I think there is no time like the present. And, I certainly think the President is not able to lead a successful investigation into "what went right, and what didn't" (he couldn't find out Karl Rove spoke to reports for two years?)

So, who's at fault.

My Vote.

The President.
It's August. In the early weeks of July, the entire White House maps out a low-key itinerary to pretend a 'Working Vacation' is about to take place. (Remember, you never introduce a new product before September). He allowed his entire administration take the month off. A communications director was getting married in Europe. Chief of Staff was in Maine. Veep was in Wyoming. Nobody was around to tell him what to do.

Thinking back at Michael Moore's footage of the President in the classroom ... for seven minutes .... while a student read 'My Pet Goat'. Man, it seems Mr. Moore in the proverbial nail on the head.

This time, there was no one to usher the President to the car, so he just kept dancing to the steps laid out in July.

Sure, there is lots of other incompetency... "Brownie" ... 'Chertoff" ... Watch fo the Memo's. Barbara Bush clearly demonstrated how her son did not become a blabbering idiot without some genetic material.

But, no, all fingers point to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Anyone else?

First of all, this is the worst disaster in US History - so we should cut FEMA and everyone else a little slack. FEMA’s role is too come in after a disaster to help organize things, but the initial responsibility lies with the State.

There were many heroes to come out of this: The Coast Guard saved about 30,000 people and the National Guard saved about 10,000.

So you need to place “blame”! Here you go:

1) Mother Nature

2)City Planners and Engineers
The city has been doing studies on the levy for the last 30+ years and they knew that if anything above a CAT 3 were to hit, that there would be total destruction. Should have put a little more money into the levy and a little less on “BEADS and HURRICANES” (for all you Mardi Gras people).

2) The Mayor
He was too busy “blaming everyone” and putting all his high society friends in the local 5 star hotel that he had no plan of attack (remember all those buses that were just lying around which could have aided in the evacuation of citizens).

3)Governor
The incompetent Governor (who has the responsibilty to call on the National Guard – not the President ) couldn’t make a decision to save her life (again – no Emergency Preparedness Plan in order and she waited to call out the Gaurd)

4)People of New Orleans
Many of the people who died, tragically, stayed in New Orleans to ride out the storm, thus causing their own demise.

That is just one of the many problems of the left-wing movement – they want the government to bail everyone out (welfare/subsidized housing etc..) rather than have people be responsible for themselves.

You are going to actually believe anything Michael Moore (Moron) has to say? His hatred for the United States gives him no credibility as far as I'm concerned.

 

[michaeledward]

No thanks, I often find the ridiculous to be entertaining. Lighten up (not on the issues, on your inter-personal skills), this forum is for discussion. If oppossing views to yours can't be expressed without getting this response, you aren't engaging in discussion, are you.

My comment was meant in a "Lighten up" mode ... sorry if that didn't come through in the typing.

Although, I am wondering about the use of 'ridiculous' as a noun, rather than correctly, as an adjective. Almost seems like, as one used to put it, poking the bears.

 

[Mark L]

Fair enough. I'm not really poking the bears, not really. Picking on my grammar, eh? OK, the gloves are off. I can't recall the author but I do recall a quote fragment describing the scope of something as spanning "the ridiculous to the sublime", I liked the sound of that, so I stole it.

Some discussions here get rather heated, with passionate discourse coming from both sides. Though not always the case, sometimes the forest gets lost in the trees, and it can be entertaining to watch the course of debate. That was my point, even though I suspect we see the world from different socio-political perspectives I enjoy watching all the argument. So I won't ignore posters simply because I disagree, only if they're blatant sphincters.

My reply that you called me on was simply to note that you have voiced your objections to Bush on more than a "few random" occasions, which is certainly your right. BTW, my vote was against Kerry. And Bush is starting to piss me off.

 

[Jeff Boler]

New video shows Lousiana Gov. Blanco assuring Bush administration hours after Katrina hit that the "levees are intact".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060303/ap_on_go_pr_wh/katrina_video_35;_ylt=Aj0PD8_E8nRCEmzLqfPNSd0bLisB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

 

[michaeledward]

Yes, it seems that Governor Blanco was wrong about a fact on the ground, in the aftermath of a hurricane. I note the quote indicating a caveate in her statement.

In the video of the conference call, Blanco appears uncertain about the reliability of her information and cautioned that the situation "could change."
Blanco said floodwaters were rising in parts of the city "where we have waters that are 8 to 10 feet deep, and we have people swimming in there."

What did the President say before the hurricane?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060301/ap_on_go_pr_wh/katrina_video

Bush didn't ask a single question during the final briefing before Katrina struck on Aug. 29, but he assured soon-to-be-battered state officials: "We are fully prepared."

Maybe ... not so much, eh?

 

[7starmantis]

Wow, so a mistake by one is not worthy of blame while the mistake of another is? Why can't we just realize that this was a confusing and hectic disaster that took all parties by surprise and exceeded (by far) the expectations of all....as nature often does. If anyone says nature is capable of being contained, understood, and completely expected...they simply have not experienced it enough.

There were big mistakes made by lots of people in this disaster, how can we recover and prepare (as best as possible) for the next disaster if we can't honestly and tactfully examine the actual issues. What exactly does assigning blame do for those touched by the disaster or those who might be touched in the future? Instead of assigning blame, I propose we simply examine the mistakes made and take steps to rectify the issues for the sake of future generations.

Just my opinions,
7sm

 

[shesulsa]

Wow, so a mistake by one is not worthy of blame while the mistake of another is? Why can't we just realize that this was a confusing and hectic disaster that took all parties by surprise and exceeded (by far) the expectations of all....as nature often does. If anyone says nature is capable of being contained, understood, and completely expected...they simply have not experienced it enough.

There were big mistakes made by lots of people in this disaster, how can we recover and prepare (as best as possible) for the next disaster if we can't honestly and tactfully examine the actual issues. What exactly does assigning blame do for those touched by the disaster or those who might be touched in the future? Instead of assigning blame, I propose we simply examine the mistakes made and take steps to rectify the issues for the sake of future generations.

Just my opinions,
7sm

Well I stand by two opinions I have previously stated on this issue:

1. There is plenty of blame to go around for everyone.

-however-

2. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if citizens are swimming in water 8'-10' deep in the city limits that a MAJOR crisis has occurred and help needs to be deployed immediately, and that they will need disaster relief on a large scale.

-and-

3. When things are happening that fast, effective communication can be lacking to say the least. But then again, refer to #2.

 

[michaeledward]

"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."

- Grover Norquist, President of Americans for Tax Reform, NPR Morning Edition, 05-25-01

Well, it seems that Mr. Norquist was successful.

With the appointment of President Bush, and his enactions of programs that cripple the effectiveness of government, we had the drowning of the Federal Government, as manifested in city of New Orleans; which for years had been described as a 'Bathtub'.

and 7starmantis ... who is absolving Governor Blanco from blame for her incorrect statement?

I suppose it is a good thing should could mobilize her state National Guard units to help rescue people stuck in the batht ... oh, wait ... her national guard was deployed to Iraq.

 

[Mark L]

With the appointment of President Bush ...

Election, not appointment. But that's been gone over ad nauseum already.

 

[michaeledward]

We do not know how (or even if) the 9 members of the United States Supreme Court voted. But we do know that it was a 5 - 4 decision to stop the counting of the votes in Florida.

Even if repeated to the point of regurgitation, this remains fact.

 

[modarnis]

Well I stand by two opinions I have previously stated on this issue:

1. There is plenty of blame to go around for everyone.

-however-

2. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if citizens are swimming in water 8'-10' deep in the city limits that a MAJOR crisis has occurred and help needs to be deployed immediately, and that they will need disaster relief on a large scale.

-and-

3. When things are happening that fast, effective communication can be lacking to say the least. But then again, refer to #2.

And the fastest way to deploy any resources was for local plan, local resources, and implementation of that plan, bolstered by the FEMA response. How pray tell was all this federal help going to get dispersed when the communication systems had failed, and there wer not plans B, C, D, and E as fallback contingencies. (things like radios that don't require an intricate repeater system so the Mayor could communicate with people who he needed to communicate with)

Having been involved in numerous disaster managment plans and drills in my previous career, the most basic thing missing was not the Fed response, it was a single leader (incident commander) who delegates jobs and resources and implements the plan and contingencies when parts of the plan don't work. This simple disaster system is taught to police, fire, EMS people all over the country when an incident will exceed initially available resources. That leader, in this case Mayor Nagin needs to oversee and hold accountable all of the individuals he delegates critical components of the plan to. He would then direct any FEMA resources to the appropriate department head (medical, police, fire, food distribution etc)

I agree that there is plenty of blame to go around. The local response still deserves a greater share of it based on acceptable standards and practices for mass casualty incident management. Whether its 5 patients in a motor vehicle crash or 100,000 in a flooded city, incident command structure is designed to facilitate the dovetailing of diverse resources to acheive a common goal